Friday, March 12, 2021< ^ >
wseltzer has set the subject to: WPACK
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

[04:21:52] tale leaves the room
[06:41:27] zulipbot joins the room
[06:48:28] zulipbot leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[06:48:42] zulipbot joins the room
[06:49:31] zulipbot leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[06:49:48] zulipbot joins the room
[06:53:00] glen joins the room
[06:53:07] glen leaves the room
[06:58:48] zulipbot leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[07:10:52] zulipbot joins the room
[07:13:05] glen joins the room
[07:13:09] glen leaves the room
[07:29:15] zulipbot leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[07:29:21] zulipbot joins the room
[14:07:47] Meetecho joins the room
[14:20:03] Sean Turner_web_642 joins the room
[14:20:03] Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_277 joins the room
[14:20:03] Chris Lemmons_web_573 joins the room
[14:20:03] Paolo Saviano_web_330 joins the room
[14:20:03] Francesca Palombini_web_156 joins the room
[14:21:03] Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646 joins the room
[14:21:08] Yoshifumi Atarashi_web_530 joins the room
[14:21:38] Yoshifumi Atarashi_web_530 leaves the room
[14:21:49] Yoshifumi Atarashi_web_591 joins the room
[14:22:01] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646> The jabber topic should refer to
[14:22:37] David Lawrence_web_384 joins the room
[14:22:37] Jeffrey Yasskin joins the room
[14:23:08] Jeffrey Yasskin has set the subject to: WPACK
[14:23:22] Jeffrey Yasskin leaves the room
[14:23:50] Sean Turner_web_642 leaves the room
[14:23:58] Sean Turner_web_883 joins the room
[14:24:13] francesca joins the room
[14:24:53] <francesca> without the dot, yes :)
[14:27:08] littledan joins the room
[14:27:12] Martin Thomson_web_628 joins the room
[14:27:34] Mirja Kühlewind_web_317 joins the room
[14:27:51] tale joins the room
[14:28:56] Daniel Gillmor_web_825 joins the room
[14:29:14] Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876 joins the room
[14:30:01] Andrew S_web_182 joins the room
[14:30:21] Hiroyuki Goto_web_659 joins the room
[14:30:27] Jonathan Lennox_web_402 joins the room
[14:30:34] <Chris Lemmons_web_573> I can take notes.
[14:30:50] <francesca> yay! Thanks Chris!
[14:30:56] Rich Salz_web_268 joins the room
[14:31:01] Gabriel Sullice_web_756 joins the room
[14:31:26] <Chris Lemmons_web_573> Maybe...
[14:31:33] <Chris Lemmons_web_573> The etherpad isn't loading for me.
[14:32:05] <Chris Lemmons_web_573> Got it.
[14:32:11] Gabriel Sullice_web_756 leaves the room
[14:32:11] Chi-Jiun Su_web_571 joins the room
[14:32:15] Eric Kinnear_web_142 joins the room
[14:32:15] Gabriel Sullice_web_938 joins the room
[14:32:28] <littledan> Pete Snyder of Brave is having some trouble getting in
[14:32:32] <littledan> is anyone available to help?
[14:32:46] Gabriel Sullice_web_938 leaves the room
[14:32:48] Harald Alvestrand_web_891 joins the room
[14:32:51] Gabriel Sullice_web_165 joins the room
[14:32:52] <Martin Thomson_web_628> is pete using meetecho in the browser?
[14:32:58] <Chris Lemmons_web_573> I'm taking notes at
[14:33:06] <francesca> what type of troubles littledan?
[14:33:26] <Martin Thomson_web_628> has he tried opening it in Chrome?
[14:33:29] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646> If he has Jabber, he can sign in and ask questions directly.
[14:33:37] Benjamin Schwartz_web_969 joins the room
[14:33:50] <Martin Thomson_web_628>
[14:34:25] Mallory Knodel_web_461 joins the room
[14:34:38] Mirja Kühlewind_web_317 leaves the room
[14:34:48] <Sean Turner_web_883> And to be clear the chairs set this goal ;)
[14:35:08] Mike Bishop_web_554 joins the room
[14:35:32] Philipp Tiesel_web_923 joins the room
[14:36:47] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> OK, he'll be listening by audio and ask questions via Jabber or me, it seems like. Thanks for the advice!
[14:37:42] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Daniel: that's a shame.  thanks for helping out there
[14:39:02] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_277> He has tghe index at the start, presumably so it can be pulled off the wire easily... ZIP etc put it at the end so that the archive can be edited.
[14:39:04] <Martin Thomson_web_628> removing is good
[14:39:06] Kirsty Paine_web_755 joins the room
[14:39:22] <Martin Thomson_web_628> PHB: yes, this is optimized for consumption, not construction
[14:39:30] <Sean Turner_web_883> it's all GH :)
[14:39:36] <Martin Thomson_web_628> that is the right ordering for the use cases here
[14:39:42] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> +1
[14:39:59] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_277> @Martin might want to consider both variants. A server can flip from one to the other on the fly.
[14:40:10] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> the format actually does permit the index to be at the end FWIW
[14:40:22] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_277> OK, thats good
[14:40:33] <Martin Thomson_web_628> does it?  that sounds like a non-feature
[14:40:42] psnyder joins the room
[14:40:47] hta joins the room
[14:41:09] dkg joins the room
[14:41:13] <Rich Salz_web_268> just like ZIP, or BSD's "ip trailers"   not thrilled with the idea.
[14:42:39] Stephan Emile_web_658 joins the room
[14:42:40] <psnyder> (apologies for the difficulties getting in, im new to IETF ways of doing things.  Good morning all)
[14:43:06] <Mike Bishop_web_554> +1 on starting minimal and expanding as we need it.
[14:43:31] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> the section architecture is flexible with respect to the ordering. I think it's a good thing.
[14:44:40] <Rich Salz_web_268> Glad you made it here, @psnyder
[14:47:09] Gabriel Sullice_web_165 leaves the room
[14:47:14] Gabriel Sullice_web_698 joins the room
[14:48:13] <Martin Thomson_web_628> daniel: when you say "intermediate", what did you mean?  Intermediate in that some stuff comes from bundles, some not?
[14:48:24] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> I meant intermediate in complexity
[14:48:34] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> the fetch map idea that I have drafted includes subset loading
[14:48:40] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Hmm, seems like that sort of thing is maximally complex.
[14:48:43] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> this would be a significantly reduced subset of it
[14:49:26] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> well, I think the bundle format is neutral with respect to what the loading mechanism is
[14:49:43] Tadahiko Ito_web_406 joins the room
[14:50:57] Tadahiko Ito_web_406 leaves the room
[14:51:26] Cullen Jennings_web_170 joins the room
[14:52:53] <Rich Salz_web_268> i think the convo shows that the WG wants to work on this.
[14:53:23] <Jonathan Lennox_web_402> If the group is already assuming it'll be working on this, that sounds like consensus to me...
[14:54:25] <Martin Thomson_web_628> I was going to say that "primary" might not be the right concept.  What you might want to say is that there is an entry point for purpose X.  That might allow you to have multiple entry points, for instance, if the bundle is a book, you might use one entry point for an dedicated reading device (Kindle, etc...) and one for a browser.
[14:55:00] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> right, I think there are multiple things being combined here, and this is why I'd like to delay its definition. Primary vs fallback may also be different and both meaningful.
[14:55:09] <Martin Thomson_web_628> A manifest is another item that might benefit from a similar abstraction
[14:56:16] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> (this last one about the critical section is the one which I feel the least strongly about)
[14:56:33] <Martin Thomson_web_628> This critical section point is very much down to a question of how these are delivered.  If you assume interactivity, then it is easier to manage these things.  But non-interactive uses seem critical here.
[14:56:44] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> (the critical section feels a little like overkill, but it doesn't cause way too much complexity)
[14:57:01] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> I have been imagining that we could have a header to negotiate which sections are supported, but yes, that would not work for non-interactive use cases.
[14:57:27] <francesca> (sorry for caps lock, I copy pasted)
[14:57:34] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> (with the same join queue button?)
[14:57:38] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646> THANK YOU FRANCESCA
[14:57:43] <francesca> :D :D ahah
[14:58:09] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Nothing that is done to make incompatible changes will make non-interactive cases work.
[14:58:17] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> thanks, got it
[14:58:20] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Whether that is a new version number or critical extensions.
[14:58:20] Lim May-Ann_web_666 joins the room
[14:58:40] <psnyder> (Apologies for being unsure where / when the appropriate time to mention this is, but I wanted to re-raise the concern just to make sure its stated.)
Brave (and Eyeo I believe, but I dont mean to speak for them) have both stated serious concerns with the implications for opinionated / "blocking" clients.  Others who do content blocking have registered similar concerns on the original GH issue I filed.
I know JY and MT have found those concerns either mistaken, or a cost worth the benefit from the proposal, or similar. I don't mean to re-litigate that here (at least not in this text field 🙂 ).
But I just wanted to re-note that the folks who are most invested in / concerned with content blocking are the folks who have raised the loudest concerns. Some of the previously noted rejections or responses to those concerns are from vendors who do (relatively) less blocking in their products.
Again, I don't mean to re-argue the specific concerns here, only that I hope the group will consider  the content blocking concerns going forward, and will solicit / invite input from the content blocking folks with the content blocking concerns 🙂
[14:58:56] Lim May-Ann_web_666 leaves the room
[14:59:01] <dkg> "do not raise hand" is indeed a rejection
[14:59:17] <dkg> that's an active move against the proposal
[14:59:48] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> (I didn't respond the first time since I didn't understand what we were voting on fast enough)
[14:59:57] <francesca> psnyder this should be brought to the mic
[15:00:02] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> I thought we were going to hum
[15:00:11] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646> psnyder wasn't able to dial in.
[15:00:36] <francesca> someone can relay?
[15:00:38] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> the draft will be hosted in a new GitHub repo?
[15:00:38] <dkg> i can relay
[15:00:43] <francesca> thanks dkg
[15:00:50] <psnyder> i appreciate that ya'll
[15:02:14] Cullen Jennings_web_170 leaves the room
[15:02:25] <dkg> psnyder: hope i got that right -- please let me know if you want anything else relayed
[15:02:42] Richard Barnes_web_184 joins the room
[15:02:51] Tadahiko Ito_web_926 joins the room
[15:03:37] <psnyder> Yes i think the do
[15:04:04] <psnyder> i think there is a core for the sub resource loading that is great, and being able to split the subresource case from the document case seems valuable
[15:04:27] <Sean Turner_web_883> FYI - average from -00 WG I-D to RFC is 3 years
[15:06:10] Alex Huang Feng_web_487 joins the room
[15:06:31] Alex Huang Feng_web_487 leaves the room
[15:07:52] <dkg> why is that choice point necessary given that different clients could also do content negotiation on a single fallback URL?
[15:07:53] Richard Barnes_web_184 leaves the room
[15:08:16] Alexey Melnikov_web_481 joins the room
[15:08:18] <dkg> more choice points means more room to break
[15:09:49] Alexey Melnikov_web_481 leaves the room
[15:09:53] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Jeffrey: do you have arguments in favour of rejecting it?
[15:10:22] Stephan Emile_web_658 leaves the room
[15:10:26] Stephan Emile_web_700 joins the room
[15:11:43] <Sean Turner_web_883> If you're here and not able to show your hand you can do it here
[15:11:54] <Mallory Knodel_web_461> I'm simply confused by the phrasing so will abstain, np.
[15:12:51] <psnyder> i support the merging the PR too (dont mean to restate)
[15:12:55] <Sean Turner_web_883> @Mallory - it's about making it part of the -00 WG draft.
[15:13:21] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Does this one bear on the content blocking story at all?
[15:13:53] <Sean Turner_web_883> at issue here is whether Jeffrey submits the draft-ietf-wpack as draft-yasskin-wpack-bundled-exchanges-04 or whether he submits it as draft-yasskin-wpack-bundled-exchanges-04 + these PRs (and PRs I mean the GH pull requests)
[15:14:10] <Sean Turner_web_883> it's IETF process ;)
[15:14:48] <Sean Turner_web_883> And, we have time so let's talk about 'em
[15:14:54] <francesca> and the PRs are here:
[15:15:38] <Sean Turner_web_883> also can be found by clicking on the # at the top of the slides. At later meetings we can actually pull those up and run through the discussions if needed ...
[15:15:41] <psnyder> yes, removing content negotiation here is important.  1) it makes it more likely we'll maintain the benefits of blocking (less likely to fetch multiple versions of the same resource), 2) it makes personalization less likely (though def not impossible of course)
[15:18:03] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Sean: ack.  Usually we just post -00 with no changes and then merge into editor's draft.  Maybe with -01.
[15:19:04] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> will someone relay psnyder's comment?
[15:19:22] <Martin Thomson_web_628> The question here is whether the draft with or without these changes is an acceptable baseline.  I don't really have any opinion on that.  Jeffrey has clearly demonstrated a willingness to engage in a positive fashion on issues and so I have confidence that we won't be fighting on the grounds that something was already in the draft.
[15:19:34] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> +1
[15:20:18] <francesca> yes
[15:20:18] <Martin Thomson_web_628> wfm thanks Sean
[15:21:18] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> yeah, I can do this recreation; it's a small piece of work and there are probably things for me to fix up with the PRs anyway.
[15:23:26] <Sean Turner_web_883> @Daniel appreciate the work
[15:23:33] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> +1 to MT's point
[15:24:12] <Martin Thomson_web_628> So far, I'm positive on all the proposed changes.
[15:24:38] <psnyder> +1 / i am humming (?)
[15:25:48] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Can people who want to keep conneg (the misfeature of HTTP that continues to give) explain their reasoning?
[15:26:10] Greg Wood_web_902 joins the room
[15:26:42] Hiroyuki Goto_web_659 leaves the room
[15:26:48] Hiroyuki Goto_web_900 joins the room
[15:26:49] Stephan Emile_web_700 leaves the room
[15:26:55] Stephan Emile_web_425 joins the room
[15:27:29] Harald Alvestrand_web_891 leaves the room
[15:28:39] <Martin Thomson_web_628> good plan Sean
[15:29:20] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> thanks
[15:29:48] Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_277 leaves the room
[15:30:09] <francesca> thank you all!
[15:30:09] Tadahiko Ito_web_926 leaves the room
[15:30:12] Martin Thomson_web_628 leaves the room
[15:30:13] Mallory Knodel_web_461 leaves the room
[15:30:13] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646> Thank you!
[15:30:13] Kirsty Paine_web_755 leaves the room
[15:30:14] Chi-Jiun Su_web_571 leaves the room
[15:30:14] Greg Wood_web_902 leaves the room
[15:30:15] Rich Salz_web_268 leaves the room
[15:30:17] Francesca Palombini_web_156 leaves the room
[15:30:23] Yoshifumi Atarashi_web_591 leaves the room
[15:30:24] Mike Bishop_web_554 leaves the room
[15:30:46] francesca leaves the room
[15:30:47] Jonathan Lennox_web_402 leaves the room
[15:30:49] Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876 leaves the room
[15:31:16] Eric Kinnear_web_142 leaves the room
[15:31:18] Sean Turner_web_883 leaves the room
[15:31:19] Hiroyuki Goto_web_900 leaves the room
[15:31:20] Chris Lemmons_web_573 leaves the room
[15:31:23] Andrew S_web_182 leaves the room
[15:31:37] David Lawrence_web_384 leaves the room
[15:31:57] psnyder leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[15:31:59] Paolo Saviano_web_330 leaves the room
[15:32:00] Benjamin Schwartz_web_969 leaves the room
[15:32:00] Gabriel Sullice_web_698 leaves the room
[15:32:00] Stephan Emile_web_425 leaves the room
[15:32:00] Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646 leaves the room
[15:32:00] Daniel Gillmor_web_825 leaves the room
[15:32:00] Philipp Tiesel_web_923 leaves the room
[15:32:01] Meetecho leaves the room
[15:35:47] littledan leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[16:24:58] tale leaves the room
[18:41:41] dkg leaves the room
[21:23:22] tale joins the room
[21:26:47] tale leaves the room
Powered by ejabberd - robust, scalable and extensible XMPP server Powered by Erlang Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional Valid CSS!