IETF
wpack@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, March 12, 2021< ^ >
wseltzer has set the subject to: WPACK https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/notes-ietf-107-wpack?useMonospaceFont=true
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[14:22:01] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646> The jabber topic should refer to https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-110-wpack.
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[14:23:08] Jeffrey Yasskin has set the subject to: WPACK https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-110-wpack
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[14:24:53] <francesca> without the dot, yes :)
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[14:30:34] <Chris Lemmons_web_573> I can take notes.
[14:30:50] <francesca> yay! Thanks Chris!
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[14:31:26] <Chris Lemmons_web_573> Maybe...
[14:31:33] <Chris Lemmons_web_573> The etherpad isn't loading for me.
[14:32:05] <Chris Lemmons_web_573> Got it.
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[14:32:28] <littledan> Pete Snyder of Brave is having some trouble getting in
[14:32:32] <littledan> is anyone available to help?
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[14:32:52] <Martin Thomson_web_628> is pete using meetecho in the browser?
[14:32:58] <Chris Lemmons_web_573> I'm taking notes at https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-110-wpack
[14:33:06] <francesca> what type of troubles littledan?
[14:33:26] <Martin Thomson_web_628> has he tried opening it in Chrome?
[14:33:29] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646> If he has Jabber, he can sign in and ask questions directly.
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[14:33:50] <Martin Thomson_web_628> xmpp:wpack@jabber.ietf.org?join
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[14:34:48] <Sean Turner_web_883> And to be clear the chairs set this goal ;)
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[14:36:47] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> OK, he'll be listening by audio and ask questions via Jabber or me, it seems like. Thanks for the advice!
[14:37:42] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Daniel: that's a shame.  thanks for helping out there
[14:39:02] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_277> He has tghe index at the start, presumably so it can be pulled off the wire easily... ZIP etc put it at the end so that the archive can be edited.
[14:39:04] <Martin Thomson_web_628> removing is good
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[14:39:22] <Martin Thomson_web_628> PHB: yes, this is optimized for consumption, not construction
[14:39:30] <Sean Turner_web_883> it's all GH :)
[14:39:36] <Martin Thomson_web_628> that is the right ordering for the use cases here
[14:39:42] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> +1
[14:39:59] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_277> @Martin might want to consider both variants. A server can flip from one to the other on the fly.
[14:40:10] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> the format actually does permit the index to be at the end FWIW
[14:40:22] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_277> OK, thats good
[14:40:33] <Martin Thomson_web_628> does it?  that sounds like a non-feature
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[14:41:13] <Rich Salz_web_268> just like ZIP, or BSD's "ip trailers"   not thrilled with the idea.
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[14:42:40] <psnyder> (apologies for the difficulties getting in, im new to IETF ways of doing things.  Good morning all)
[14:43:06] <Mike Bishop_web_554> +1 on starting minimal and expanding as we need it.
[14:43:31] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> the section architecture is flexible with respect to the ordering. I think it's a good thing.
[14:44:40] <Rich Salz_web_268> Glad you made it here, @psnyder
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[14:48:13] <Martin Thomson_web_628> daniel: when you say "intermediate", what did you mean?  Intermediate in that some stuff comes from bundles, some not?
[14:48:24] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> I meant intermediate in complexity
[14:48:34] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> the fetch map idea that I have drafted includes subset loading
[14:48:40] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Hmm, seems like that sort of thing is maximally complex.
[14:48:43] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> this would be a significantly reduced subset of it
[14:49:26] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> well, I think the bundle format is neutral with respect to what the loading mechanism is
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[14:52:53] <Rich Salz_web_268> i think the convo shows that the WG wants to work on this.
[14:53:23] <Jonathan Lennox_web_402> If the group is already assuming it'll be working on this, that sounds like consensus to me...
[14:54:25] <Martin Thomson_web_628> I was going to say that "primary" might not be the right concept.  What you might want to say is that there is an entry point for purpose X.  That might allow you to have multiple entry points, for instance, if the bundle is a book, you might use one entry point for an dedicated reading device (Kindle, etc...) and one for a browser.
[14:55:00] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> right, I think there are multiple things being combined here, and this is why I'd like to delay its definition. Primary vs fallback may also be different and both meaningful.
[14:55:09] <Martin Thomson_web_628> A manifest is another item that might benefit from a similar abstraction
[14:56:16] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> (this last one about the critical section is the one which I feel the least strongly about)
[14:56:33] <Martin Thomson_web_628> This critical section point is very much down to a question of how these are delivered.  If you assume interactivity, then it is easier to manage these things.  But non-interactive uses seem critical here.
[14:56:44] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> (the critical section feels a little like overkill, but it doesn't cause way too much complexity)
[14:57:01] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> I have been imagining that we could have a header to negotiate which sections are supported, but yes, that would not work for non-interactive use cases.
[14:57:16] <francesca> "SHOULD WE FORMALLY ADOPT THIS DRAFT AS A WORKING GROUP DOCUMENT?"
[14:57:27] <francesca> (sorry for caps lock, I copy pasted)
[14:57:34] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> (with the same join queue button?)
[14:57:38] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646> THANK YOU FRANCESCA
[14:57:43] <francesca> :D :D ahah
[14:58:09] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Nothing that is done to make incompatible changes will make non-interactive cases work.
[14:58:17] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> thanks, got it
[14:58:20] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Whether that is a new version number or critical extensions.
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[14:58:40] <psnyder> (Apologies for being unsure where / when the appropriate time to mention this is, but I wanted to re-raise the concern just to make sure its stated.)
Brave (and Eyeo I believe, but I dont mean to speak for them) have both stated serious concerns with the implications for opinionated / "blocking" clients.  Others who do content blocking have registered similar concerns on the original GH issue I filed.
I know JY and MT have found those concerns either mistaken, or a cost worth the benefit from the proposal, or similar. I don't mean to re-litigate that here (at least not in this text field 🙂 ).
But I just wanted to re-note that the folks who are most invested in / concerned with content blocking are the folks who have raised the loudest concerns. Some of the previously noted rejections or responses to those concerns are from vendors who do (relatively) less blocking in their products.
Again, I don't mean to re-argue the specific concerns here, only that I hope the group will consider  the content blocking concerns going forward, and will solicit / invite input from the content blocking folks with the content blocking concerns 🙂
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[14:59:01] <dkg> "do not raise hand" is indeed a rejection
[14:59:17] <dkg> that's an active move against the proposal
[14:59:48] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> (I didn't respond the first time since I didn't understand what we were voting on fast enough)
[14:59:57] <francesca> psnyder this should be brought to the mic
[15:00:02] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> I thought we were going to hum
[15:00:11] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646> psnyder wasn't able to dial in.
[15:00:36] <francesca> someone can relay?
[15:00:38] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> the draft will be hosted in a new GitHub repo?
[15:00:38] <dkg> i can relay
[15:00:43] <francesca> thanks dkg
[15:00:50] <psnyder> i appreciate that ya'll
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[15:02:25] <dkg> psnyder: hope i got that right -- please let me know if you want anything else relayed
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[15:03:37] <psnyder> Yes i think the do
[15:04:04] <psnyder> i think there is a core for the sub resource loading that is great, and being able to split the subresource case from the document case seems valuable
[15:04:27] <Sean Turner_web_883> FYI - average from -00 WG I-D to RFC is 3 years
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[15:07:52] <dkg> why is that choice point necessary given that different clients could also do content negotiation on a single fallback URL?
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[15:08:18] <dkg> more choice points means more room to break
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[15:09:53] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Jeffrey: do you have arguments in favour of rejecting it?
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[15:11:15] <francesca> SHOULD WE MERGE IN PR 617 INTO THE DRAFT FOR INITIAL SUBMISSION AS A WG DOC?
[15:11:43] <Sean Turner_web_883> If you're here and not able to show your hand you can do it here
[15:11:54] <Mallory Knodel_web_461> I'm simply confused by the phrasing so will abstain, np.
[15:12:51] <psnyder> i support the merging the PR too (dont mean to restate)
[15:12:55] <Sean Turner_web_883> @Mallory - it's about making it part of the -00 WG draft.
[15:13:21] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Does this one bear on the content blocking story at all?
[15:13:53] <Sean Turner_web_883> at issue here is whether Jeffrey submits the draft-ietf-wpack as draft-yasskin-wpack-bundled-exchanges-04 or whether he submits it as draft-yasskin-wpack-bundled-exchanges-04 + these PRs (and PRs I mean the GH pull requests)
[15:14:10] <Sean Turner_web_883> it's IETF process ;)
[15:14:48] <Sean Turner_web_883> And, we have time so let's talk about 'em
[15:14:54] <francesca> and the PRs are here: https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/pulls
[15:15:38] <Sean Turner_web_883> also can be found by clicking on the # at the top of the slides. At later meetings we can actually pull those up and run through the discussions if needed ...
[15:15:41] <psnyder> yes, removing content negotiation here is important.  1) it makes it more likely we'll maintain the benefits of blocking (less likely to fetch multiple versions of the same resource), 2) it makes personalization less likely (though def not impossible of course)
[15:18:03] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Sean: ack.  Usually we just post -00 with no changes and then merge into editor's draft.  Maybe with -01.
[15:19:04] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> will someone relay psnyder's comment?
[15:19:22] <Martin Thomson_web_628> The question here is whether the draft with or without these changes is an acceptable baseline.  I don't really have any opinion on that.  Jeffrey has clearly demonstrated a willingness to engage in a positive fashion on issues and so I have confidence that we won't be fighting on the grounds that something was already in the draft.
[15:19:34] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> +1
[15:20:18] <francesca> yes
[15:20:18] <Martin Thomson_web_628> wfm thanks Sean
[15:21:18] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> yeah, I can do this recreation; it's a small piece of work and there are probably things for me to fix up with the PRs anyway.
[15:23:26] <Sean Turner_web_883> @Daniel appreciate the work
[15:23:33] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> +1 to MT's point
[15:24:12] <Martin Thomson_web_628> So far, I'm positive on all the proposed changes.
[15:24:32] <francesca> SHOULD PR 618 TO REMOVE CONTENT NEGOTIATION BE MERGED FOR THE WG DOC?
[15:24:38] <psnyder> +1 / i am humming (?)
[15:25:48] <Martin Thomson_web_628> Can people who want to keep conneg (the misfeature of HTTP that continues to give) explain their reasoning?
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[15:28:39] <Martin Thomson_web_628> good plan Sean
[15:29:20] <Daniel Ehrenberg_web_876> thanks
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[15:30:09] <francesca> thank you all!
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[15:30:13] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_646> Thank you!
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