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[12:58:23] <tale > Hello all, we'll be starting in a moment.
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[12:58:53] <Martin Thomson> I've worked out that the agenda page and meetecho DON'T show all the meeting materials.  You have to go to: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/session/wpack
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[12:59:25] <Jonathan Lennox> A refresh of the agenda page also shows all the materials.  The agenda page doesn't dynamically update as things are added.
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[12:59:34] <tale > Ah is this part of the problem you were having yesterday in ADD?
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[13:00:21] <Meetecho> Martin Thomson: true, apologies for that, we download the list a bit in advance, so if other slides were added later they won't appear there. We'll make sure this is fixed next time, thanks for the feedback!
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[13:01:47] <Tobia Castaldi> I can
[13:01:48] <Daniel Gillmor> yes, we can hear you
[13:01:48] <Martin Thomson> Keep believing
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[13:01:50] <Shivan Sahib> Hi tale!
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[13:03:59] <Brian Trammell> volunteer remote childcare?
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[13:04:21] <Jeffrey Yasskin> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-wpack-urls-for-bundle-contents-01.pdf
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[13:04:32] <Mike Bishop> 108 was supposed to be the first IETF with childcare provided, no?
[13:04:42] <mnot> And it was...
[13:04:49] <Brian Trammell> after a fashion
[13:04:54] <Chris Lemmons> I think so. I know there was a plan to do childcare.
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[13:05:12] <Daniel Gillmor> i don't think youtube counts as childcare
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[13:05:33] <mnot> Don't say that in public, you'll get dirty looks DKG
[13:05:34] <Martin Thomson> kaboom?
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[13:05:37] <Benjamin Schwartz> :-(
[13:05:38] <Shivan Sahib> oh no
[13:05:41] <Brian Trammell> the bikeshed strikes back
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[13:06:01] <Jonathan Lennox> Don't trifle with the bikeshed
[13:06:04] <Rich Salz> "In my day all we had was PBS, and we *liked it*"
[13:06:17] <Brian Trammell> (seriously though i've been impressed by MTTR on Meetecho network failures)
[13:06:18] <Sean Turner> sorry folks I am in my personal hell right now
[13:06:22] <Carrick> +1 Rich
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[13:07:47] <Martin Thomson> the other way to phrase this is "is this the same origin as ...."
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[13:08:33] <Martin Thomson> that isn't quite the same as "does this share storage, due to some odd browser storage policies", but thinking about origins is a good first approximation
[13:09:00] <Daniel Gillmor> note that some of the traditional "origin" distinctions are being further complexified (e.g. double-keyed cookie stores)
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[13:09:23] <Martin Thomson> the reason I suggested that is that it permits a simplification of sorts
[13:09:35] <Martin Thomson> but yes, lateral traversal is challenging
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[13:10:25] <Sam Weiler> naming is hard; let's create a routing algorithm
[13:10:44] <Martin Thomson> did we properly resolve the origin question?  or are we forging ahead without that?
[13:10:54] <Rich Salz> +sam
[13:10:58] <Mike Bishop> I'm unclear whether "How scary is that?" is an actual question or an idiomatic way of stating that it's *really* scary.
[13:11:09] <Martin Thomson> OK
[13:11:24] <Brian Trammell> mike: why not both
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[13:11:39] <Martin Thomson> ni:// does exactly that, which is awkward in the extreme
[13:11:44] <Brian Trammell> it's certainly scary, but it might take a while to define the boundaries of that scariness
[13:12:01] <Daniel Gillmor> wpack: defining the boundaries of scariness
[13:12:15] <Adam Roach> Mike: in this case, my reading is "this is intuitively terrifying, but we need some really rigorous investigation to figure out what the objective problems might be and figure out whether we can mitigate them."
[13:12:19] <Rich Salz> and bundling it all up into a package, dkg
[13:12:19] <Brian Trammell> "make the parser hard to verify" has never been a protocol specification derived source of CVEs.
[13:12:42] <Sam Weiler> brian++
[13:12:43] <Martin Thomson> what is the authority in 3a?
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[13:13:12] <Rich Salz> very impressed by jeffrey's ability to respond to chat question in real time
[13:13:21] <Martin Thomson> that is very impressive, yes
[13:13:30] <Martin Thomson> I can't even get the chat to scroll
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[13:13:35] <Ted Hardie> I find 3b easy to read, but I'm almost certainly an outlier.  More importantly, I think fewer encodings is more important than easy to read.
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[13:13:37] <tale > I appreciate it very much!
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[13:13:45] <Lucas Pardue> wonder if he prefers chocolate or vanilla ice cream
[13:13:48] <Sean Turner> anybody want a kid? I got toilet paper to throw in?
[13:13:53] <Brian Trammell> +1 to ted on fewer encodings
[13:14:09] <Brian Trammell> i'm troubled by your ability to read it
[13:14:16] <Rich Salz> +1 also to fewer encodings
[13:14:21] <Brian Trammell> you have spent far too much time debugging encoded URLs apparently
[13:14:24] <Martin Thomson> You don't know what %2F is Brian?
[13:14:42] <Brian Trammell> MT: if I did, I would not admit it in public in case someone asked me to
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[13:15:21] <tale > He'd probably call it "backslash" just to be folksy
[13:15:31] <Martin Thomson> Only in Seattle
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[13:15:58] <Martin Thomson> where / is backslash and \ slash
[13:16:10] <Brian Trammell> ow
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[13:16:25] <Adam Roach> That's not Seattle. That "all US media"
[13:16:27] <Daniel Gillmor> i wish that was only seattle
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[13:16:43] <Martin Thomson> or at least they are interchangeable...for engineers
[13:16:44] <tale > I appreciate also that Jeffrey is able to gloss over this nonsense
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[13:17:56] <Martin Thomson> what does foo.example do in this case?  I'm guessing that they don't like this much
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[13:19:01] <Martin Thomson> what about a link to a page on bar.example, which doesn't do packaging
[13:19:12] <Martin Thomson> sorry, baz.example
[13:19:37] <Martin Thomson> :hand_with_index_and_middle_fingers_crossed:
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[13:19:57] <Lucas Pardue> I would speculate adeptness to read/address/filter chat is improving in the population via Twitch streaming
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[13:20:56] <tale > So shmoo should be looking at Twitch as a platform
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[13:21:18] <Daniel Gillmor> you aren't subscribed to ietf-and-twitch@ietf.org yet?
[13:21:21] <Brian Trammell> meetecho is basically twitch for consensus-based standards development, though
[13:21:37] <Lucas Pardue> whiteboxed twitch = https://aws.amazon.com/ivs/
[13:21:47] <mnot> I looked at Twitch for QUIC interims and the HTTP Workshop back when.
[13:21:52] <Brian Trammell> (complete with the half-megabit stream of the slides)
[13:21:58] <mnot> Problem was ads; didn't want to pay to get rid of them.
[13:21:59] <Meetecho> Brian Trammell: I'm afraid we're much poorer than Twitch...
[13:22:09] <Meetecho> I wish we had their money
[13:22:21] <Daniel Gillmor> pls don't start accepting advertising
[13:22:35] <Jonathan Lennox> Other than "Hosted by" bugs
[13:22:45] <mnot> ad-funded IETF; what could go wrong? We're just following best practice on the Internet...
[13:22:48] <Lucas Pardue> new revenue opportunity, cstum emojiis for this chat
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[13:24:37] <Dan York> Minutes are at https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-108-wpack
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[13:28:10] <Martin Thomson> All the slides are in Jeffrey's head
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[13:30:16] <Martin Thomson> that isn't quite my own understanding of this: the provider of a bundle does choose what is in a bundle, but we might want to create ways for others to claim (the bundle or parts thereof)
[13:31:02] <Rich Salz> IESG naming rights for sale
[13:31:10] <Rich Salz> Or better RFC title naming rights for sale
[13:31:45] <Mike Bishop> "The Chick-fil-A Transport Area Director..."
[13:32:10] <Adam Roach> I think trying to tackle syntax and semantics and UX all at once is probably making this problem harder than it needs to be.
[13:32:17] <Martin Thomson> I agree with Ted, but conclude that neither is fine
[13:32:30] <Adam Roach> Like, we need to figure out what semantics we want without regard to the other two
[13:32:46] <Martin Thomson> I agree with Emily's team
[13:33:03] <Adam Roach> Then the other two become pretty much orthogonal to each other
[13:33:16] <Adam Roach> And we can use the semantics to reason about the rendering
[13:33:17] <Mike Bishop> +1 Emily
[13:33:23] <tale > Brian Trammell sponsored by WebcamX
[13:33:30] <Adam Roach> And the syntax really _does_ become a bike shed color.
[13:34:26] <Murray Kucherawy> Huh, had to rejoin, and the chat only shows me what's been said since the rejoin.  Can't go back further.
[13:34:27] <mnot> Have we convinced ourselves that this has to be a single URL, and not something like a URL + contextual metadata?
[13:34:28] <Rich Salz> I don't think we need to tackle all at once, but we need to consider all aspecdts
[13:34:45] <Martin Thomson> Avoiding slashes is a consequence of RFC 3986
[13:35:47] <Mallory Knodel> (I wish there was a visual cue in the upper right for anyone who is speaking. I don't like toggling off of the chat to figure that out.)
[13:35:58] <Adam Roach> Murray: https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/wpack/2020-07-31.html
[13:36:11] <mnot> (i.e., what's driving us to force all of this information into the URL?)
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[13:36:20] <Martin Thomson> Mallory: you are not the only one
[13:36:21] <Murray Kucherawy> Adam: thanks
[13:36:29] <Mike Bishop> I think the "shiny new symbol" might actually be helpful, because there is also code that will percent-decode and then have the vulnerability because they see a URL.
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[13:39:14] <Adam Roach> To be fair, that's what we do with http-non-s URLs.
[13:39:17] <Brian Trammell> is this "without validation mechanism" or "validation mechanism indeopendent"?
[13:39:25] <Joey Salazar> +1 Ben *some* part of the bundle would need to be verifiable for sure?
[13:39:58] <Sean Turner> Sorry folks the wheels officially came off the home sit
[13:41:12] <mnot> MT +1 - this is what I'm on about above
[13:41:23] <Brian Trammell> so, repeating my jabber Q
[13:42:04] <Martin Thomson> Sean, you are a legend, but you could pass the baton.
[13:42:29] <Brian Trammell> is the issue we're trying to do URL design, is it because we really, really want to be able to have no attestation, or because we want the semantics of a URL to be independent of how we attest to the identity of the bundle creator?
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[13:42:54] <Brian Trammell> (I also tuned out a bit in Vancouver and am a bit surprised by the complexity in this discussion as MT is)
[13:43:05] <Martin Thomson> sizing is hard if you have in insert metadata
[13:43:56] <Sam Weiler> sounds like a multi-session CD-R
[13:44:26] <Martin Thomson> not offering streamed generation seems like a nice characteristic, but can't you reserve space for content?
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[13:45:10] <Martin Thomson> concatenate multiple bundles
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[13:47:56] <Chris Lemmons> Right, but who attests to the validity of the bundle as a whole? If the bundle is available on HTTPS, then the origin providing the bundle is attesting to what it provides.
[13:48:00] <Jonathan Lennox> Wouldn't the multiple bundles cases have the same problem of an adversary publishing a collection of bundles that weren't meant to go together?
[13:48:18] <Benjamin Schwartz> Jonathan: Yes, but now it's explicit and can be handled by our origin definitions.
[13:48:28] <Jeffrey Yasskin> Martin: Concatenated bundles would be one possible syntax if we decide to do this.
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[13:48:59] <Martin Thomson> jonathan, yeah, you can cut and choose, depending on where the signature lives
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[13:49:20] <nygren > MT's "MICE" (left-leaning merkel) might be fine for streams consumed on the fly.  There are some things in the multicast space looking at incremental signing of streams being generated on the fly.
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[13:50:22] <mnot> Why is too many requests a problem in h2/h3?
[13:50:38] <Yoav Weiss> compression and client-side processing
[13:50:54] <mnot> For compression, there are other solutions being discussed (slowly).
[13:51:03] <mnot> what client-side processing?
[13:51:27] <Rich Salz> @mnot can you summarize those other solutions being discussed?
[13:51:41] <Yoav Weiss> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11t4Ix2bvF1_ZCV9HKfafGfWu82zbOD7aUhZ_FyDAgmA/edit#
[13:51:46] <mnot> SDHC and variations.
[13:52:09] <Martin Thomson> if there are a few subresources that could come from outside the bundle in these cases, shirley
[13:52:38] <Rich Salz> (compress the compression discussions) but I was, also, serious
[13:52:39] <Martin Thomson> Thanks for the link Yoav.
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[13:52:46] <Chris Lemmons> Thanks!
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[13:52:49] <tale > Thank you for notes, Martin
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[13:52:51] <Martin Thomson> Wow, this seemed really short.
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[13:52:56] <Martin Thomson> I took very few.  Thank Brian
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[13:53:00] <Jeffrey Yasskin> YAy for 50-minute sessions!
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[13:53:06] <tale > Yes and thank you Brian
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[13:53:08] <teirdes> yay!
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[13:53:14] <Rich Salz> great job presenting jeffrey
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[13:53:35] <ekr@jabber.org> Why does this require *streaming* bundles
[13:53:50] <ekr@jabber.org> or rather why does it require creating them with streaming.
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