IETF
v6ops
v6ops@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, November 12, 2021< ^ >
Meetecho has set the subject to: v6ops IETF 112
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[11:45:38] <Ole Trøan_web_884> Dear Meetecho... mind promoting Bob and I to chairs together with Ron and Fred?
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[11:45:46] <Alessandro Amirante_web_992> on it
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[11:46:21] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Superb, thank you.
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[11:47:29] <Alessandro Amirante_web_992> will you preload slide decks, or you want me to take care of that?
[11:47:40] <Ole Trøan_web_853> I am preloading now.
[11:47:48] <Alessandro Amirante_web_992> ack
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[11:49:47] <Bob Hinden_web_252> Hello 6MAN and V6OPS
[11:50:01] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Hi Bob
[11:50:16] <Bob Hinden_web_252> Hi Jen
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[11:53:16] <Dhruv Dhody_web_231> Yes!
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[11:55:59] <Barbara Stark_web_218> My tea is steeping. Almost done.
[11:56:10] <Cheng Li_web_723> hello
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[11:58:13] <Alessandro Amirante_web_992> Fred hasn't even tried to connect today AFAICT
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[11:58:54] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Early morning in California I suppose.
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[12:00:16] <Jen Linkova_web_577> How do we know if you are excited or angry, Ole? Can you give us typing rhythm examples?
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[12:00:22] <Barbara Stark_web_218> And notes are ready to go... :)
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[12:04:49] <Cheng Li_web_723> the audio is broken, any one has the same issue?
[12:04:56] <Warren Kumari_web_874> Nope
[12:04:59] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Sounds good here
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[12:05:05] <Jen Linkova_web_577> I can hear Ron loud and clear
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[12:05:21] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> all good here too
[12:05:21] <Cheng Li_web_723> ok, then issue on my side, let me reconnect
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[12:06:15] <Warren Kumari_web_874> Nicely done slides...
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[12:06:31] <Dhruv Dhody_web_231> Would wearing an ICANN tshirt to IETF be akin to wearing another bands merch to a concert :)
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[12:07:48] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Dhruv: maybe not ICANN but if there is such thing as ITU t-shirt - yes ;)
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[12:07:58] <Dhruv Dhody_web_231> :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:
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[12:08:11] <Shuping Peng_web_402> Very good slides! @Ron
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[12:10:18] <Adrian Farrel_web_338> About now in this discussion, I like to remind y'all about RFC 6398 and its commentary on Router Alert
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[12:11:14] <Erik Kline_web_837> the note that in section 7, it seems
[12:11:17] <Erik Kline_web_837> they*
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[12:12:33] <Ole Trøan_web_853> For MLD Router Altert is limited to directly connected nodes only. Is Router Alert with RSVP used across a multi-hop path?
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[12:13:40] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> Ole, this is indeed my thinking, 1/ MLD are local 2/ RSVP is anyway limited to a single 'limited' domain for years
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[12:13:51] <Eduard V_web_746> IMHO About HbH: the problem is just an absence for the business case because processing additional headers are expenses and additional security risks. The business case would be found in closed domains sooner or later. It would probably not happen on the wide Internet. Not much IETF could do about it. Hence, even the current state is fine.
[12:14:05] <Ron Bonica_web_321> I don't know of any RSVP/IPv6 implementations. Most IPv4 implementations don't use Router Alert any more
[12:14:12] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Ole: is RSVP over IPv6 a thing?
[12:14:28] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> Jen: is RSVP over IPv4 (for QoS) a thing ?
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[12:14:50] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Eric: who said anything about QoS? I was thinking about RSVP-TE and CSPF
[12:14:51] <Adrian Farrel_web_338> I know of IPv6 RSVP-TE (not RSVP) and it does not use RA
[12:14:54] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Eduard: Business case -> Any use case?
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[12:14:58] <Shuping Peng_web_635> A few new cases that are using HBH will be presented soon :) @ Eduard
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[12:15:05] <Ron Bonica_web_321> @Eric I don't know of any RSVP/Intserv implementations
[12:15:21] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Ron me neither ;-)
[12:15:28] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> rsvp-te allows setting the dest IP to the next hop, so doesn't need router alert any more
[12:15:29] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Adrian: oh cool, good to know!
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[12:16:05] <Bill Fenner_web_948> Fun fact: Linux has a terrible bug in their IPv6 Router Alert implementation (as an endpoint) which will cause packets containing RA to be delivered across network namespaces with no indication of which namespace they belong to.
[12:16:09] <Eduard V_web_746> Ole, the business case is not the same as the use case. Use cease has no financial justification that is needed for business.
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[12:17:06] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Eduard: My point was that we don't have any Internet wide use case. Therefore it would also be hard to have a business case. Lots of interesting stuff happening in limited domains with HBH though.
[12:17:19] <Eduard V_web_746> Agree
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[12:18:52] <Ole Trøan_web_853> the only one I can think of that's Internet applicability is the PMTU record option. But that use case was described in 1083 or was it 1063
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[12:20:23] <Eduard V_web_746> Even PMTU would not be accepted on the wide scale of the Internet. Why spend more money on headers processing if 97% of subscribers do not agree to pay a premium.
[12:20:40] <Fred Baker_web_995> Ron, I know of an RSVP/Interserv implementation. I wrote it. It is now somewhat historical.
[12:21:08] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> Curious to see how other modern routers (i.e., purely virtual routers in a containers/VM network) behave wrt HbH
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[12:21:34] <Darren Dukes_web_339> Eduardo
[12:21:51] <Darren Dukes_web_339> @eduard +1
[12:22:12] <Ole Trøan_web_853> In VPP we have implementations for various IOAM features. Also the PMTU record HBH option. We are not happy about the L4 not being at a fixed offset in packet though.
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[12:23:11] <Tim Chown_web_530> ioam would be nice to have for some e2e cases
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[12:24:08] <Tim Chown_web_530> the equivalent int protocol is probably more efficient, using p4
[12:24:10] <Tom Herbert_web_345> Ole, L4 being readable by intermeidate nodes is a probalem in itsef.
[12:24:47] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> some = just about all?
[12:24:55] <Tom Herbert_web_345> I don't believe RFC8200 advocates dropping packets with HBH.
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[12:25:18] <Tim Chown_web_530> indeed there are many p4 implementations doing "hbh" behaviour.
[12:25:20] <Eduard V_web_746> iOAM is desperately needed because the firmware is becoming more and more buggy. The control plane does not understand that the data plane is dropping traffic in reality. Hence, closed domains should adopt it very soon.
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[12:25:37] <Jen Linkova_web_577> @Tom: I'm afraid it's like saying that the force of gravity is a problem in itself
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[12:29:21] <Darren Dukes_web_339> The v6 header is processed at each hop because transporting packets is always necessary.  Hey is not since it makes no money. In a limited domain it has a chance since it can bring enough value to justify the costs. I wonder if that acknowledgement would be useful?
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[12:30:15] <Darren Dukes_web_339> *hey=HBH :).
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[12:30:51] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> I was wondering about "Hey is not since" but now I understand it ;-)
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[12:32:02] <Tom Herbert_web_345> Is there data on the impact of RFC8200? Are any vendors ignoring HBH now instead of dropping?
[12:32:07] <Darren Dukes_web_339> Sorry iPad keyboard
[12:32:16] <Barbara Stark_web_218> Oh! Autocorrect of HbH to Hey
[12:32:31] <mcr> @Tom, I think that the problem is that we need 2-3 router lifetimes to expunge the pre-8200 routers.
[12:33:19] <Ole Trøan_web_853> And even so I don't think random end-user can inject packets that makes random SP's routers change their forwarding behaviour...
[12:33:24] <Cheng Li_web_347> i think within the limited domain, HBH can be used. ACL can be deployed at the edge nodes, which prevents the potential attacking from outside
[12:33:33] <Ole Trøan_web_853> So hard to see how most of HBH will not be limited to limited domain...
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[12:34:03] <Cheng Li_web_347> so that the sources of inserting HBH into the packets are controlled and trusted, then problem solve？
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[12:34:26] <Eduard V_web_746> I do not see any problem now with the limited domain. iOMA or whatever - easy to implement.
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[12:35:25] <Cheng Li_web_347> the operators should say, let's upgrade all the devices in my network, then it can work
[12:35:26] <Jen Linkova_web_577> @mcr:  first when I read ' 2-3 router lifetimes to expunge the pre-8200 routers.' I was thinking 'so Router Lifetime is 16 bit integer, so..' ;)
[12:36:16] <mcr> @Jen. haha. half-life of utility of equipement is long due to movement to edge, and of course, ebay.
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[12:36:55] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> just deprecate router alert
[12:37:23] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @Kireeti any suggestions for how to fix MLD?
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[12:37:34] <mcr> deprecate MLD :-)
[12:37:54] <Erik Kline_web_837> deprecate router alert with non-link-local communications?
[12:37:57] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @mcr: I've stopped sending MLD for link-local addresses, cause they don't add value anyway...
[12:38:14] <mcr> draft-ietf-6lo-multicast-registration for the win.
[12:39:01] <Cheng Li_web_347> It may can be deprecated, since young people don't know it actually(I guess）, low value it appears.
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[12:39:24] <mcr> I'm wondering how many have read RFC9008, which is basically about how to use HBH in the edge, without pissing off the middle.
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[12:40:36] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @mcr: Can you give the one sentence summary?
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[12:41:38] <Tom Herbert_web_345> Not sure something like IOAM will work with as a fixed length option
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[12:41:57] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @Tom scratch space like 791 record route?
[12:42:02] <mcr> RFC9008 explains how to add/subtract HBH options for LLNs that need to use source routing and loop detection.  RFC8200 allowed us to simplify things, as we can assume that it's okay for HBH to "escape" if the packet has to cross Internet.
[12:42:32] <Shuping Peng_web_635> for the ioam, we could separate the instruction and the data collected @ Tom
[12:42:34] <mcr> We have to use IPIP headers to add/subtract.  Fortunately, we know how to compress them.
[12:42:36] <Jared Mauch_web_312> (7 years is the reasonable lifetime of hardware, with some going much longer, expect the factory code may never change on the device)
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[12:47:29] <Darren Dukes_web_339> @bob I don’tthink there is practical internet wide use cases.
[12:47:47] <Jared Mauch_web_312> +1 {ddukes,bob}
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[12:47:53] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> s/use cases/business cases/
[12:48:00] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> we don't know if everyone drops hbh first and ask questions later
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[12:48:13] <Darren Dukes_web_339> @eric. Agreed
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[12:48:40] <Bob Hinden_web_252> Use case drives the business case :-)
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[12:48:53] <Shuping Peng_web_635> agree @ Bob
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[12:49:02] <Jared Mauch_web_312> (there's this interesting meta thing about how the internet is largely driven by business cases vs research)
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[12:49:53] <Fred Baker_web_995> I thought that the IPv6 header had to fit in the first fragment? THat's a limit.
[12:50:02] <Adrian Farrel_web_338> (@jared and how we tend to squash new features based on "we don't see the business case" when in practice the actual business case for stuff is rarely what stuff was engineered for)
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[12:50:29] <Haoyu Song_web_436> no internet-wide use cases or it's more difficult to implement internet-wide use cases? I think the latter case is true.
[12:50:30] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> number of ext hdrs and length thereof are easyish to specify. actual processing time (cycles) much harder
[12:50:38] <Jared Mauch_web_312> there's practically no fragmentation in v6
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[12:51:22] <Bob Hinden_web_252> @Fred   Yes, IPv6 header, HBH headers, Dest EHs, and Transport need to be in the first fragment.
[12:51:25] <Jared Mauch_web_312> adrian: yes, often someone figures out how to [ab]use something later to get some goal
[12:51:30] <Jeffrey Haas_web_880> and dropping fragments is one of people's favorite mitigation rules for dealing with DDoS
[12:51:37] <Fred Baker_web_995> @Jared, agreed. That makes requiring the entire IPv6 header (including HBH and all other options) to be in the first packet constitutes a limit.
[12:51:49] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @kireeti putting limit is "easy"  in 2021 but what will be the limit in 10 years ?
[12:52:01] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> very true
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[12:52:17] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Jared: as someone who just recently has a very exciting troubleshooting session involving fragmentation, I disagree :))
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[12:52:27] <Bob Hinden_web_252> @Eric  That is the challenge to setting a limit
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[12:52:30] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Jen tell us more ;-)
[12:52:41] <Ole Trøan_web_853> We could also make the HBH header a terminating header (i.e. no headers following it).
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[12:53:16] <Fred Baker_web_995> @Ole, so a source-routed packet may not contain an HBH?
[12:53:19] <Jared Mauch_web_312> fred: as the practical limit of most devices these days is a pps one, not a bps one, any of these additional things (including uRPF, etc) often limit the pps, or halve the performance or more.
[12:53:25] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Jen: Didn't we agree to deprecate fragments.
[12:53:40] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Eric: there are protocols which are still want to fit the whole communication in a single datagram, you know ;)
[12:53:49] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> ;-)
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[12:53:54] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Fred: The routing header does not use HBH. But yes, it would put some severe limitations on uses.
[12:54:02] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Jen; NFS over Ipv6 ?
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[12:54:12] <Erik Kline_web_837> DNSSEC?
[12:54:26] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Ole: I don't think I did. Can't call doing this. Was it at whiskey BoF?
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[12:54:36] <Erik Nygren_web_160> Practically should there be a row here for Firewalls?  Ignoring beyond the limit vs dropping isn't viable/good there.
[12:54:45] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Eri{c,k}: ...and RADIUS ;)
[12:54:57] <Jared Mauch_web_312> Ole: I wouldn't be sad if we deprecated HBH, EH, MLD
[12:54:58] <Jen Linkova_web_577> s/call/recall/
[12:55:06] <Jared Mauch_web_312> (and fragments)
[12:55:23] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Jared: The 2022 IPv6 spring clean! ;-)
[12:55:32] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Ole: SPRING???
[12:55:44] <Barbara Stark_web_218> LOL
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[12:55:48] <Jared Mauch_web_312> he means spring cleaning, not SPRING ...
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[12:56:11] <Shuping Peng_web_635> this limit may depend on the time scale which we choose to consider
[12:56:12] <Ole Trøan_web_853> I only noticed the potential ambiguity after hitting enter.
[12:56:24] <Darren Dukes_web_339> @bob I said “practical” ;) there has been no practical case, probably not one after 20 years.
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[12:57:00] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Regarding limits. Isn't the limit going to be very use case specific? Do we need a generic one?
[12:57:01] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Darren: I've heard people saying exactly the same about Ipv6 in general..
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[12:57:15] <Bob Hinden_web_252> @Darren   Just like Source Routing :-)
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[12:57:59] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Now guys be nice.
[12:58:23] <Erik Nygren_web_160> @Jen: you need HPH PMTUD to avoid the Fragments because probing for HPH options interfered with PMTUD probing?
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[12:59:12] <Darren Dukes_web_339> @bob Jen LOL :)
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[12:59:16] <Jen Linkova_web_577> ErikL I'm afraid sometimes fragments are unavoidable
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[12:59:44] <Jeffrey Haas_web_880> at some point you devolve into a pmtu query to see what a given end to end session MIGHT need to reserve space for in order for a middle box to muck with the packet intrusively with hbh
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[13:03:13] <Tim Chown_web_530> maybe bob's audio is in extension headers
[13:03:21] <Tom Herbert_web_345> Ole, there are recommended default for all limits. RFC8504 defines some limits for receiving hosts.
[13:03:22] <mcr> "not working well"... haha. major understatement.
[13:04:23] <Warren Kumari_web_874> @mcr: :-)
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[13:04:42] <Warren Kumari_web_874> CSMA/CD to me always seems like an acronym win.
[13:05:10] <Jen Linkova_web_577> mcr: I'd say '!(working well)' is true in this case, so...
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[13:05:23] <Tom Herbert_web_345> !
chairs
participants

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[13:05:34] <Tom Herbert_web_345> Sorry!
[13:05:50] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> that was tom checking pmtu
[13:05:51] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Tom, testing limits in cut and paste? ;-)
[13:05:53] <Jen Linkova_web_577> wow how did you do that??
[13:06:05] <Jared Mauch_web_312> for PMTU issues, i mostly see people have issues with L2 devices than L3 devices
[13:06:11] <Tom Herbert_web_345> Ole, 5am in the morning :-)
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[13:07:10] <Justin Iurman_web_530> @Tom each in turn :-D
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[13:08:53] <Eduard V_web_746> About PMTUD HbH: if it is the closed domain when why not to decrease filtering of ICMP PTB? then normal 8201 would start to operate.
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[13:09:54] <Ole Trøan_web_853> A benefit of PMTU HBH is that it follows the end to end path. No packet from random intermediate source.
[13:10:19] <Justin Iurman_web_530> "header can be large" ... as other options
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[13:10:36] <Justin Iurman_web_530> "header changes its size at every hop" ... so we're talking about the incremental trace, not the pre-allocated trace
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[13:10:41] <Bob Hinden_web_252> @Ole   +1   Better trust relationship and less likely to be dropped.
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[13:11:08] <Eduard V_web_746> Ole, ICMP PTB would be generated from the path only. No any urrelevant hops.
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[13:11:19] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Justin changing header size is indeed troubling
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[13:11:59] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Also, intermediate routers usually rate limit ICMP generation
[13:12:07] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Ole same path if ECMP 'hash' is able to jump over the HbH to do the same 5-tuple hash
[13:12:16] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_638> @Eduard: You could configure a consistent MTU :-); you could enable ICMP everywhere... which might give you a way to reduce the PMTU; To increase you'd need to probe with different size packets - if you had jumboframes that might be less easy to guess what size works.
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[13:12:29] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Ole, PMTU probably should be usedon all packets for a flow since the presence of the EH could affect how the packet is routed
[13:13:10] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Eric: we should have start using flow labels finally (it would very, very nice for fragments, esp with anycast ;)
[13:13:25] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_638> @Tom - is the use of alternate routes based on HBH a common problem?
[13:13:36] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @Tom yes, it would have been nice if we could have come up with a mechanism that only required processing if the packet was too large. Large probe with packet truncation was one idea.
[13:13:56] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Jen if only... else I agree 100% !
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[13:14:25] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Eric: AFAIK at least some router vendors do that. And my laptop seems to use flow lables
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[13:15:02] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Gorry: not all routers can parse over the HbH to find the L4 header to compute the 5-tuple hash for ECMP
[13:15:13] <Warren Kumari_web_874> Clips for me
[13:15:14] <Barbara Stark_web_218> Definitely clipping
[13:15:34] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Jen: indeed, many routers include flow label in their 6-tuple hash
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[13:15:49] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Gorry, the extension header might push the L4 headers to far down in packet, so ECMP might have different behavior.
[13:15:51] <Darren Dukes_web_339> @jen use flow label minus any other L4 info.  Do you think that’s possible?.
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[13:16:57] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @darren, that's the intent. Flow label is usable even when L4 is unreable (e.g. when it's encrypted)
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[13:17:05] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Darren: I might be missing smth but why not? it flow label is empty - use 5 tuple,  otherwise - use flow label...
[13:17:23] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_638> @Eric, Tom: OK. But then ECMP is normally over paths with the same MTU ... which wouldn't be a real impact.
[13:18:00] <Kyle Rose_web_715> Dr. Pedanticus here. "Clipping" refers to when someone's audio is overdriven to the point where it hits the maximum amplitude supported by the encoding. Also called "brickwalling", it produces something that sounds like static or distortion.
What was happening here is better termed "cutting out".
[13:18:01] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> except in very badly designed networks ;-) Hoping that those are the exceptions
[13:18:13] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_638> My suggeted use is that the info returned  is anyway advice about how to probe to check the path - the communication doesn't break becasue the minPMTU is wrong, but it will probes unusessfully with a probe packet of that size
[13:18:22] <Darren Dukes_web_339> @jen I don’t disagree.
[13:18:24] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @Kyle: Thank you!
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[13:20:13] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Gorry, ECMP is a local decision but downstream paths could have very different characteristics (like differnt RTT causing OOO or maybe even drop). Chanigng routing mid flow can be insidious.
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[13:21:29] <Tim Chown_web_530> As mentioned in 6man, the CERN experiment community considered HBH/DO for marking experiment traffic but with the issues there are instead using flow label.
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[13:22:22] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Tim, is this by repurposing bits in the flow label?
[13:22:26] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_638> @Tom I know. There are more evil things out there - such as inconsistent receive size at the remote. In the ned if you wnat to avoid black-holing, I'd say you have to probe with a sacrifical (passing) packet.
[13:22:45] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_638> /ned/end/
[13:22:50] <Tim Chown_web_530> yes, Tom, 5 entropy bits, 15 marking bits (for experiment and application)
[13:22:52] <Darren Dukes_web_339> @jen A bit more complex to implement the hash generation with a conditional. But It would be interesting to see what impact that recommendation could have.
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[13:23:55] <Tim Chown_web_530> @tom they are also using out of band UDP firefly packets which then works for ipv4, though the majority of CERN experiment traffic is now v6.
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[13:24:15] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Tim, that's going to be a hard sell in 6man. Flow label is deployed and going to be hard to redefine the bits.
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[13:24:44] <Tim Chown_web_530> well, it's working, without 6man approval ;)
[13:25:05] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Tim, nice :-)
[13:25:06] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Tom there is also a stateful mode for flow labels (if I remember correclty) where routers can have state to process the flow label
[13:25:09] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Tim :-)
[13:25:38] <Erik Kline_web_837> the docs support a domain doing what it wants with the flow label (in general)
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[13:26:05] <Tim Chown_web_530> the hbh/do issues are documented, so i'll encourage them to write a short info draft, around the problem of marking the traffic for measurement.
[13:26:18] <Bob Hinden_web_252> For encapsulation, I think there is a lot of flexability how the flow label could be used.
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[13:26:50] <Tim Chown_web_530> well, in this case erik the packets flow over much of the world's R&E network infra, so it's a big domain, but generally not commercial internet.
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[13:27:34] <Jeffrey Haas_web_880> Without revealing the parties that are asking, there are many who want to meddle with the flow label.
[13:27:52] <Jared Mauch_web_312> i've watched many of the r&e networks slowly move to NAT-PT and actually do less IPv6 today than they did 5-10 years ago now
[13:28:12] <Jared Mauch_web_312> plus selling their IPv4 space (MIT, Merit are two examples)
[13:28:17] <Tim Chown_web_530> i don't know of any R&E network using nat-pt, but we're very off topic now :)
[13:28:45] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> the restriction MUST NOT be in # present, but in # required to be processed
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[13:29:00] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Bob, the problem is routers may use the whole flow label for ECMP. If a node is changing some bits then they should expect inconsisten routing (maybe that's okay in some circumstance)
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[13:29:24] <Tim Chown_web_530> @tom hence the 5 entropy bits as a compromise
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[13:30:16] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @Kyle what is the term for the artefact when beginning of the audio stream is cut off? I.e when participants just come off mute.
[13:30:36] <Tim Chown_web_530> clipping?
[13:31:06] <Srihari Sangli_web_758> I agree with the previous comment, unless there is a driving application, the vendors' will not support HBH and do in fast path
[13:31:08] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Tim and hopping that your routers use all 20 bits and not only a subset ;-) and the hash works fine for 5 bits ;-)
[13:31:13] <Kyle Rose_web_715> @ole: no idea :-)
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[13:31:32] <Kyle Rose_web_715> I think that might be "meetecho delay caused by releasing the microphone"
[13:31:38] <Tim Chown_web_530> @eric i saw a draft saying certin vendor uses 16 bits.  cisco? :)
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[13:32:05] <Jared Mauch_web_312> (router vendors or network operator configuration?)
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[13:33:21] <Roland Bless_web_876> Rehabilitation seems to be worthwhile. While I understand that defining limits may help acceptance for HbH processing, I agree with Eduard that enforcing limits now may become a problem in the future then.
[13:33:56] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Roland: indeed, limits in 2021 are not the same as in 2031
[13:34:04] <mcr> was the question of which WG would do this work discussed/resolved?
[13:34:15] <mcr> I'm in favour of rehabilitation.
[13:34:28] <Erik Kline_web_837> limits defined as a function of the MTU would seem to make sense
[13:34:40] <Kyle Rose_web_715> Rehabbing HbH headers is definitely worth some effort. I wish we had the greasing concept back in the early 2000's when v6 stacks were being implemented....
[13:34:42] <Erik Kline_web_837> larger MTU, larger HbH limits
[13:34:44] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @mcr: Currently there are two drafts in queue to be adopted in 6man and one draft adopted in v6ops.
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[13:35:08] <mcr> I'd almost be in favour of a new WG.
[13:35:20] <Erik Kline_web_837> 6hbh
[13:35:37] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Hop Scotch WG?
[13:35:42] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Hey WG ;)
[13:35:47] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> 6ext?
[13:35:53] <Tim Chown_web_530> hoppy eyeballs?
[13:35:56] <mcr> 666
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[13:36:08] <Erik Kline_web_837> Tim wins, I think
[13:36:15] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Eric, we can always revist limits. On the other hand, we do have forty years experience with Internet, we can make some reasonable extrapolations on evolution-- for instance the rate at which new options are being defined for various protocols.
[13:36:27] <Fred Baker_web_572> If I am following the discussion at all, the answer to the first question is "yes"
[13:36:44] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Tom agreed but not very flexible
[13:37:18] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Tom too much fllexibility is the problem :-)
[13:37:22] <Erik Kline_web_837> if we define the limits as a function of the MTU then the limits can adjust as the space to hold them adjusts
[13:37:47] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Erik still the number of options could be a problem though
[13:37:56] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> @fred agreed with the caveat that nbn must not require slow path processing
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[13:38:19] <Fred Baker_web_572> Violent agreement
[13:38:52] <Fan Yang_web_793> I was trying to present another IPv6 HbH use case where is used for DetNet/Raw applications.
Three options are defined to provide detnet flow identification in the forwarding plane, detnet OAM, and DetNet packet replication elimination ordering functions.
The links are
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-detnet-ipv6-hbh-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2021-detnet-01/materials/slides-interim-2021-detnet-01-sessa-draft-pthubert-detnet-ipv6-hbh-00.pdf
we expect further discussions on applications and collaborations to move it forward.
[13:38:55] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> disagree with limits based on mtu.
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[13:39:19] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Eric, 1 option limit is too restrictive, 100 is too permissive. We need to find x where 1 < x < 100.
[13:39:37] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Tom ;-)
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[13:40:02] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> @tom MUST process one, MAY process more might work
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[13:40:20] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @warren +1
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[13:41:04] <Justin Iurman_web_876> @Éric Is there any use/business case with multiple Hbh options carried at the same time currently? Given their "limited domain" purposes in general, we could assume that it'd still make sense in 10 years or so to have only 1 option per hbh. Also, Ole's comment on making hbh terminal could be a solution. Again, is there any use/business case out there requiring hbh and route/dst opt? If so, some might encapsulates others (e.g., SRv6 carrying IOAM, etc)
[13:41:07] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_638> @Tom - 1 might be made to work soon, MAY process more might work amongst those with enthusiasm.
[13:41:08] <Kyle Rose_web_715> WG: "hoho"
[13:41:15] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Kireeti, to the extent that the problem is processing the options, not the very presence of the options (i.e. the headers too big problem)
[13:41:48] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Justin, e.g., iOAM & MTU options ?
[13:42:15] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> @tom isn't the DoS aspect of processing hbh the reason why they are configured to be dropped?
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[13:43:31] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> +1 to ron
[13:44:50] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> @ron deprecate router alert and ALL slow path processing
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[13:45:23] <Justin Iurman_web_876> @Éric What about a restriction (x=1) then? They do not necessarily need to be carried altogether
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[13:45:32] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Kireeti, as I mentioned there are some routers that require reading L4 headers or they'll drop. There was quite a bit of discussion when we worked in the operational implications on extension headers draft.
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[13:45:53] <Tom Herbert_web_345> @Kireeti, +1 on eliminating slow path
[13:46:04] <Timothy Winters_web_155> If you remove router alert, MLD messages won't be processed by all the current host/routers.
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[13:46:12] <mcr> "fast path" and the "not-so-fast path"... @tom... done.
[13:46:18] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @tim indeed....
[13:46:25] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> @tom to clarify, x=1 for hbh, not including L4
[13:46:51] <Timothy Winters_web_155> MLD is going thru an update to aim for internet standard, so maybe we could change this?
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[13:47:04] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> +1 to tim
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[13:47:34] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> could -> should -> MUST
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[13:48:10] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_638> You might allow RA only on a local link... and then not expect this on Internet Routers
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[13:48:20] <Bill Fenner_web_948> "just" change MLD to send to all-routers instead of to the group being joined
[13:48:33] <Shuping Peng_web_391> Agree @Eric Vyncke
[13:48:53] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @Bill: Right, any case where that wouldn't work?
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[13:50:57] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_638> @Bill ... I suspect Ethernet Switches might be more tricky to upgrade than many devices...
[13:50:58] <Bill Fenner_web_948> @Ole: Well, MLD snooping switches would have to understand this change too (snooping switches send copies of MLD to the CPU so that they can inspect it and create a tree at layer 2)
[13:51:23] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_638> @Bill <snap> same comment!
[13:51:27] <Bill Fenner_web_948> The quotes in "just" were ironic
[13:51:32] <Bill Fenner_web_948> @Gorry great minds think alike
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[13:51:42] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @Bill: at least from the platform guys I checked with they typically didn't do MLD snooping for IPv6 link-local multicast anyway.
[13:51:57] <Warren Kumari_web_874> Yah. I view this session as a really good example of the IETF doing something well :-)
[13:52:13] <Warren Kumari_web_874> If I were feeling snarky, I'd add "... for a change" :-P
[13:52:18] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Warren +1 and useful !
[13:52:23] <Bill Fenner_web_948> @Ole: do we only care about IPv6 link-local multicast?  Then we can eliminate MLD altogether
[13:52:33] <Shuping Peng_web_391> Indeed +1 @Warren
[13:52:49] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @Bill: _that_ I don't know. But at least that's one big constituent.
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[13:53:04] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> @Bill AFAIK many routers ignore MLD for link-local multicast
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[13:53:18] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @Warren: Now you ruined it by being snarky! ;-)
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[13:55:02] <Shuping Peng_web_391> yes, the draft could start with a good analysis and research first
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[13:55:13] <Shuping Peng_web_391> the deprecated one
[13:55:22] <Boris Khasanov_web_362> +1 to make such draft with analysis
[13:55:24] <Bill Fenner_web_948> @Ole, @Éric: in 1999 the design was specifically that link-local was required for MLD, but, that thought was not forceful enough to make it into routers
[13:55:28] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> can some providers write down WHY they drop hbh on ingress (if indeed they do)
[13:55:41] <Darren Dukes_web_339> I think the trouble hbh has is that options only have significant use in limited domains. Internet wide it is not likely to be widely used and this has been observed, which makes meetings like this seem necessary. I wonder if we can make that distinction in any drafts that move forward.
[13:56:03] <Ole Trøan_web_853> @Bill: I don't think MLD makes any sense for routers for link-local scoped. But it does for L2 switches
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[13:56:09] <Eduard V_web_746> Kireeti, they do not want to test and support. Minimize OPEX and CAPEX.
[13:56:13] <Ole Trøan_web_853> Which I don't think couldn't make it scale....
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[13:56:16] <Shuping Peng_web_391> Thank you, all!
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[13:56:24] <Boris Khasanov_web_362> Thanks and bye!
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[13:56:24] <Warren Kumari_web_874> Please note: if you use the term "limited domain" it needs to be **very** clearly defined.
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[13:56:29] <Erik Kline_web_837> thanks
[13:56:29] <Kireeti Kompella_web_138> thanks, chairs!
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[13:56:34] <Bill Fenner_web_948> @Ole: The design was specifically that hosts were required to send MLD for link-local, for the benefit of switches.
[13:56:34] <Timothy Winters_web_155> thanks!
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[13:56:36] <Éric Vyncke_web_747> thanks
[13:56:36] <Yuya Kawakami_web_504> Thanks all and chairs
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[13:56:40] <Tom Herbert_web_345> Thanks chairs for a great session!
[13:56:41] <Warren Kumari_web_874> and what the border is, and how it is enforced, and....
[13:56:41] <Darren Dukes_web_339> @warren ack
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[13:56:41] <Jen Linkova_web_577> Kireeti: for example, because nobody told them that new version of their software *can* skip EH and look at transport protocol
[13:56:41] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_885> Thanks
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