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[09:04:29] <Ted Lemon> That is a very brute-force solution, Ron. Well done. :)
[09:04:34] <Ted Lemon> Yes.
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[09:05:38] <Barbara Stark-jabber> Is it just me or are there issues with Meetecho?
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[09:06:02] <Meetecho> Barbara Stark: no, the IETF jabber server was not working. We started the session anyway
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[09:06:14] <Meetecho> Now the IETF jabber server is back up, but you may need to reload Meetecho for chat to work there
[09:06:47] <Barbara Stark-jabber> OK. Thx. I finally got in
[09:07:31] <Barbara Stark-jabber> IS anyone taking notes?
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[09:13:24] <Chris Lemmons> Yay, chat is working.
[09:13:26] <Éric Vyncke> Good tip Warren ! Chat works now
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[09:13:38] <Chris Lemmons> Yes.
[09:13:47] <Alexandre Petrescu> test ignore
[09:13:48] <Ole Trøan_> Only a third of the time wasted on "are you muted, tools broken, etc"
[09:13:52] <Eduard V> Meetecho is too strict on time.
[09:14:32] <Meetecho> Eduard V: the session was started late as we were waiting for the IETF jabber server to come back up. We decided to start without chat anyway.
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[09:14:57] <Meetecho> If you mean the end of sessions, we don't cut any session abruptly
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[09:15:06] <Meetecho> A session yesterday was over time of half an hour
[09:15:14] <Éric Vyncke> @Barbara: you are indicated as note taker with Shuping ;-)
[09:15:16] <Alexandre Petrescu> ITs's an interesting slide shown
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[09:15:26] <Fernando Gont> i'mtexting him on meetecho's private chat
[09:15:32] <Fernando Gont> and messages dont seem to go through
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[09:15:45] <Éric Vyncke> "this is irritating" quite an understatement, Fred ;-)
[09:15:51] <Warren Kumari> Indeed...
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[09:16:04] <Barbara Stark-jabber> @Eric: Yes. Shuping ad I started typing and put ourselves there because no-one else was there.
[09:16:11] <Meetecho> Fernando Gont: he may need to reload the Meetecho page if chat's not working (especially if he joined before the IETF server came back up)
[09:16:14] <Éric Vyncke> Big thank to both of you ;-)
[09:16:14] <Warren Kumari> Nope, people can jsut unmute themselves...
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[09:24:11] <Éric Vyncke> Slide 7: I really wonder why chipset choice has an impact on cLAT (that is purely SW in my mind)
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[09:25:34] <Alexandre Petrescu> Slide 7: which part of 'chipset'?  There are 2 parts there: an ARM running linux and a modem; typically ARM is concerned about CLAT, not modem.  But I wonder whether the modems in smartphones connecting to Reliance JIO are compatible with DHCPv6-PD?
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[09:26:16] <Alexandre Petrescu> It is a very interesting presentation, thank you.
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[09:26:30] <Fernando Gont> I second Eric's question
[09:27:51] <Eduard V> Eric, please, ask your question from presenter
[09:28:20] <Éric Vyncke> Will do
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[09:31:33] <Alexandre Petrescu> (I googled 'CLAT RFC' and it leads to 464XLAT, INFORMATIONAL status, status which might be a reason for non compliance in some chipsets; not sure I hit the right RFC, though)
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[09:33:33] <Alexandre Petrescu> RFC6877 (464XLAT, probably a shortname for 'CLAT') is INFORMATIONAL.
[09:34:59] <Éric Vyncke> 464XLAT has 2 parts: client and provider so clat and plat if not mistaken
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[09:39:44] <Fernando Gont> @eric: your audio is okay
[09:39:48] <Ted Lemon> Your audio is fine, Éric
[09:39:50] <Boris Khasanov> issues are on presenter side
[09:39:51] <Warren Kumari> yup, your audio works
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[09:40:17] <Barbara Stark-jabber> I suspect his speakers are off
[09:40:37] <Jordi Palet Martinez> Ramesh may just have his speaker muted to avoid echos?
[09:40:43] <Eduard V> No. he did complain verbally that he does not hear.
[09:40:58] <Eduard V> it was 1 way communication
[09:41:03] <Barbara Stark-jabber> No, he's in green which means his mic is  on
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[09:41:09] <Boris Khasanov> or handset problem
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[09:41:26] <Fernando Gont> @all: he's available on the chat
[09:41:30] <Fernando Gont> I texted him
[09:41:36] <Meetecho> If you can hear him fine, the audio channel is there: possibly a headset issue? browser tab muted?
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[09:46:27] <Ole Trøan_> I think there is a misunderstanding how the BR and MAP-T works...
[09:46:41] <Ole Trøan_> The logging requirements are known given that the MAP-T rules are static.
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[09:47:19] <Éric Vyncke> Ole, it was my point
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[09:48:46] <Éric Vyncke> Jordi: firmware/driver could indeed explain the point about cLAT
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[09:49:25] <Alexandre Petrescu> (Whenever I aslk a silicon manffacturer for this or that RFC feature, they ask how much volume of these chips one is ready to buy, otherwise no firmware upgrade)
[09:50:11] <Eduard V> In MAP environment you still need log from Mobile Core for delegated prefixes, but not from "Border Relay" (that is Stateless NAT)
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[09:52:08] <Ole Trøan_> But then the regulator should accept a static IPv4 address assignment either. Or does anyone else understand the logic?
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[09:57:49] <Alexandre Petrescu> (fyi, for those who want to scroll the slides, go to agenda (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda/), then search in the page for 'v6ops' then click on the 'Show meeting materials' button which has a logo of two crossing arrows.  Thatùs the only way I could find the slides.
[09:58:12] <Alexandre Petrescu> )
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[09:58:57] <dhruvdhody> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/session/v6ops
[09:59:17] <Alexandre Petrescu> thanks for the direct URL
[09:59:26] <dhruvdhody> :)
[09:59:36] <Peter van Dijk> the 'folder' button at the top of meetecho also has them
[09:59:58] <Alexandre Petrescu> ah, so handy!
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[10:02:14] <slm> there's a list of the slides at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/session/v6ops
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[10:04:28] <Jordi Palet Martinez> @Ramesh instead of new IP private blocks, just move to 464XLAT for broadband and problem goes away and you need even less public IPv4 addresses
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[10:06:06] <slmagain> sorry for the duplicate slide info - I was disconnected for a few minutes
[10:06:46] <Alexandre Petrescu> slmagain: but how did one reach that URL?
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[10:07:30] <slmagain> someone sent a link in a previous wg meeting and I hand edited the url.
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[10:07:59] <Ole Trøan_> Gorry: +1
[10:08:15] <Éric Vyncke> Gorry, should is be "considerations" ?
[10:08:15] <Bob Hinden> +1 to Gorry too
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[10:08:35] <slmagain> :-)
[10:09:33] <slmagain> otherwise, start at meeting site https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/109/, click on Meeting Materials to reach https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/, scroll or search for the wg name
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[10:09:47] <Warren Kumari> Yes pelase!
[10:09:49] <Ole Trøan_> The analogy here is "there is a firewall the blocks IPsec, so the v6ops should write a draft recommending ipsec not to be used?"
[10:10:02] <Éric Vyncke> LoL
[10:10:28] <Alexandre Petrescu> IF I knew which operator which EH it blocks then I would know how to avoid it.
[10:10:49] <Fernando Gont> @gorry: thanks for the feedback and the offer to help!
[10:10:53] <Éric Vyncke> This is Jen's wall of shame that it still in the planing I am afraid
[10:10:55] <Warren Kumari> No, more "a whole bunch of firewalls block ipsec. If you use ipsec you should understand this..."
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[10:11:37] <Ole Trøan_> Warren: But this is a discussion where we can jump directly to Geoff's point. Only 443 and 53 works in the Internet
[10:11:38] <Alexandre Petrescu> To Jen's point, there was a sofftware called Netalyzr at BErkeley; it said what goes through tand what not.
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[10:12:33] <Éric Vyncke> Do53, Ole you are so XXth century ;-)
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[10:13:05] <Fernando Gont> @Ole: this document is not arguing what an operator should do. It simply means to document why IPv6 EHs are challenging to many kinds of network devices and why these devices may need to resort to dropping them.
[10:13:40] <Alexandre Petrescu> Why operators drop EHs?
[10:14:07] <Alexandre Petrescu> Do operators drop entire packet or just their EHs?
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[10:15:02] <Peter van Dijk> As I understand it (with a wink) - cheap firewalls drop entire packets with EH; expensive firewalls let you use EH to smuggle things in :)
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[10:15:57] <Fernando Gont> @Ole: "only ports 443 and 53 work on the internet" is not really correct. e.g., when tunneling over v6, Linux automaticaly enables tunel encap option, leading to the inclusion of a DOH. My tunnels stopped working as soon as I "upgraded" them to IPv6. After some pcaps, I realized about the Linux behavior, manually disabled the use of tunel encap option, and things worked out.  This document raises awareness for e.g. folks that face this, which otherwise would probably have no clue
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[10:19:11] <Fernando Gont> And the reason for dropping packets with EHs is not "default deny", but rather "these EHs prevent devices from doing what they are intended to do". -- that's a big difference.
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[10:19:46] <Alexandre Petrescu> linux's 'tunnel encap option" differentiates between IPv4 and IPv6 at least because of EH dropping at some operators - noted.
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[10:20:37] <Warren Kumari> ... also, there are SSL VPNs, largely because IPSEC *didn't* traverse many firewalls. If there had been more discussions discussing this, perhaps we could have avoided SSL VPNs...
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[10:22:12] <Fernando Gont> well, "surprise": IPsec VPNs does not traverse the 'net, in many cases -- and I'm not talking about firewalls.  (ipsec being considered an AH is put into the same basket). So, ironically, one may need to tunnel on top of UDP to make it work..
[10:22:14] <Alexandre Petrescu> VPNs altogether are no good for audio quality in this day and age (traingular routing), but I could not try it see whether an IPv6 IPsec VPN would act better.
[10:23:07] <Fernando Gont> @alex: it doesn't. While not included in RFC7872, I also measured ipsec, and packets do get drop, as with other EH types
[10:23:39] <Éric Vyncke> @Warren: the success of SSL VPN vs. IPsec is also about installation IMHO, this is an application mainly while IPSEC requires a driver
[10:24:30] <Warren Kumari> @Eric: Yup, there is some truth to that...
[10:24:34] <Warren Kumari> fair point
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[10:27:29] <Alexandre Petrescu> Fernando's EHs cover HbHs too?
[10:27:59] <Fernando Gont> Yes. HbH is the ugliest. :-)
[10:28:28] <Fernando Gont> and, typically, highest drop rate
[10:28:41] <Éric Vyncke> Let's say that HbH is powerful, quite powerful, ... with currently more use as DoS vector than useful (but Penshing has some valid points)
[10:29:02] <Alexandre Petrescu> That's why some operators block Mobile IP then... (MIP also uses HbH IIRC)
[10:29:05] <Éric Vyncke> And RFC 8200 allows to ignore HbH (long story short)
[10:29:14] <Éric Vyncke> MIP is using RH-2
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[10:29:53] <Alexandre Petrescu> MLD is using HbH then...
[10:30:00] <Éric Vyncke> or does MIPv6 also use HbH
[10:30:10] <Éric Vyncke> And MLD is link-local only so not too bad
[10:30:18] <Éric Vyncke> RSVP also uses HbH
[10:30:19] <Fernando Gont> Yeah, but in the tyoicaly case you only use MLD on the local link, for nodes that want to do mld-snooping
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[10:35:21] <Eduard V> Eric and this draft are right: if something is announced as "not important" in the primary RFC, then no wonder it is not supported properly.
[10:36:12] <Ole Trøan_> It's simply because there hasn't been any HBH options that have been particularly useful yet.
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[10:37:02] <Fernando Gont> EHs in general are not supported properly.
[10:37:28] <Fernando Gont> HOw many routers out there can process EH header lengths of arbitrary length at line speed?
[10:37:34] <Alexandre Petrescu> RSVP/HbH could have been exported to DETNET and other QoS-inclined activities; but there are always new opportunities in eg 6G 'High precision communications'
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[10:38:27] <Éric Vyncke> @Fernando, I would love to have your view on the section 3.3 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-flow-spec-v6/ on this aspect
[10:39:26] <Warren Kumari> "particularly useful" to whom? If they have significant cost to X, but only Y gets the benefit, then there is an incentive mismatch...
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[10:40:07] <Éric Vyncke> @Warren I do not see HbH used outside of a 'domain'
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[10:40:52] <Fernando Gont> @erik: will look at the I-D and comment
[10:41:19] <Ole Trøan_> This list was of course to provide all the solutions that would keep the 64 bit boundary.
[10:41:20] <Éric Vyncke> Thanks, I am holding a DISCUSS on it and your review will be welcome
[10:41:21] <Fernando Gont> @erik: are EHs, in general, used outside of a "domain"
[10:41:54] <Éric Vyncke> ESP and AH for sure ;-)
[10:41:59] <Éric Vyncke> RH for MIPv6 ?
[10:42:46] <Eduard V> All this story related to variable SLAAC is just a story how to bypass one misbehaving vendor that have blocked DHCP-PD in the modem. Why you beleive that they would not block new solution? They need to sell more modems...
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[10:43:08] <Fernando Gont> @eric: ESP and AH have not proved to be reliable for me, unfortunately. So, if needed, I ahve to resort to tunneling
[10:44:24] <Fernando Gont> @eduard: haven't read the draft. That said, if you're only given a /64, then there's not that many options to share the address space other than...ahem... IPv6 NAT
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[10:45:22] <Fernando Gont> @eric: re MIPv6: anybody uses it?
[10:45:36] <Ole Trøan_> Fernando see the first slide. There are many ways to extend.
[10:45:41] <Eduard V> Fernando, People have found a few ways how to share more prefixes in the situation when DHCP-PD is blocked.
[10:45:55] <Éric Vyncke> MIPv6 no clue... perhaps some niche users
[10:46:48] <Ted Lemon> DHCP-over-https?
[10:47:03] <Éric Vyncke> For /127, I prefer RFC 7404 ;-)
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[10:48:13] <Alexandre Petrescu> DHCP-over-http... will enforce the use of all subsewuent traffic through that http
[10:48:45] <Ole Trøan_> Ted: DHCP over DNS?
[10:48:55] <Fernando Gont> @Ole: Any one that is feasible and not ugly (or at least well understood)? :-)
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[10:49:34] <Ole Trøan_> Fernando: DHCPv6 for address assignment?
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[10:51:35] <Éric Vyncke> You would still need to inject the route in upstream router... Currently done by sniffing DHCP-PD
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[10:52:45] <Ole Trøan_> Eric: For address assignment? Nah, you don't need that. But you would have to routing for DHCP pools in the internal network if it's an arbitrary topology
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[10:53:50] <Fernando Gont> @ole: yes, if only it was universally supported...
[10:54:04] <Ole Trøan_> Apart from on the ad-platform it is I believe.
[10:54:10] <Alexandre Petrescu> Lorenzo recommended to better spend time to 'delegate' prefixes in RA?
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[10:54:30] <Bob Hinden> Yes, I think so
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[10:56:30] <Éric Vyncke> OTOH Using "neighbor discovery" protocol to configure beyond your neighbor is kind of weird ;-) and a trick to bypass DHCP-PD
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[10:56:53] <Ole Trøan_> Yes, indeed. And is it just "on the wire" representation the argument is over?
[10:57:03] <Ole Trøan_> The number of bytes and protocol semantics are going to be very similar.
[10:57:17] <Bob Hinden> It's been said that they can't use DHCPv6 PD
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[10:57:26] <Ted Lemon> Even though it's in the latest 3GPP spec.
[10:57:30] <Alexandre Petrescu> We cant use DHCPv6-PD, indeed.
[10:57:34] <Ole Trøan_> Bob: That's a statement that doesn't really make much sense though.
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[10:57:59] <Bob Hinden> I was just repeating what was said, I don't agree.
[10:58:00] <Éric Vyncke> RFC 7381 is inforational
[10:58:26] <Bob Hinden> The meetecho room will keep going
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[10:59:10] <Fernando Gont> @ole: agreed. but said implementation has a significant market share..
[10:59:39] <Alexandre Petrescu> "doesn't really make much sense though." - struggling with an issue of a daily basis might make it make sense, for some people, including myself.  DHCPv6-PD, despite all implems we had written in my group, is not working on cellular.
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[11:00:20] <Ted Lemon> It seems like the crux of the problem Gyan is describing is that he thinks that Verizon's billion customers would be a single allocation.
[11:00:33] <Ted Lemon> Obviously that's not the case—Verizon's U.S. customer base is a lot less than that.
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[11:00:40] <Ted Lemon> That would be one allocation.
[11:00:47] <Barbara Stark-jabber> Gotta go. Chairs: Notes are on CodiMD
[11:00:50] <Eduard V> May be it is better to just change the default port for DHCP-PD and bypass current block in the modem? Is it difficult for Android to listen on non-default port?
[11:00:51] <Ted Lemon> If they have customers in some other country, that would be another allocation.
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[11:01:07] <Fernando Gont> given what we have, is it too much that both protocols be able to e.g. do the same kind of (basic, at least) stuff, and for operators vendors to decide?
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[11:01:12] <Ted Lemon> Eduard, I still like DHCPv6-PD-over-https. :)
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[11:01:34] <Alexandre Petrescu> 'changing default port' - it is ok on a terminal, but would operator agree to listen on non standard ports...
[11:01:45] <Fernando Gont> At teh end of the day, we keep duplicating the useful dhcpv6 stuff piecemeal
[11:02:15] <Ted Lemon> This is kind of like saying "look, I don't have an IP address, but I'd like to be able to send and receive packets. what can I do?"
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[11:02:32] <Eduard V> IMHO: change destination port on the Carrier's side would be easy.
[11:02:37] <Ted Lemon> yes
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[11:03:05] <Ted Lemon> There may be some issue with getting a chipset with an embedded IP stack to do the requisite routing.
[11:03:11] <Ted Lemon> Might require a tunnel. :(
[11:03:49] <Éric Vyncke> OTOH IPv6 forwarding is probably 'cheaper' than doing IPv4 NAT
[11:04:04] <Alexandre Petrescu> Allocating a prefix through a tunnel brings in Triangular Routing, which is bad for audio quality during virtual meetings.
[11:04:06] <Ted Lemon> Also cheaper than proxy arp
[11:04:36] <Ted Lemon> You'd want the tunnel to be at the provider edge, not somewhere deep in the network
[11:05:55] <Fernando Gont> @eric: not really. see IPv6 Security Assessment and Benchmarking [slides] [video] — Eldad Zack at www.ipv6hackers.org
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[11:06:15] <Éric Vyncke> Thx I'll have a look
[11:06:31] <Alexandre Petrescu> The slide shows an important problem.
[11:06:38] <Alexandre Petrescu> Time is running out.
[11:06:51] <Alexandre Petrescu> I really would like to know best steps forward.
[11:08:22] <Ole Trøan_> Unclear if that is actually best practice. ;-)
[11:08:54] <Eduard V> especially looking to loopback addresses
[11:09:40] <Fernando Gont> @ole: unless you do /64 per host... the implications can be interesting
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[11:10:09] <Fernando Gont> (· of NCEs, FHS implementations, etc.)
[11:10:14] <Ole Trøan_> I just want a single address per host, cause applications and stack can't deal well with anything else...
[11:10:19] <Ole Trøan_> And much simpler operationally...
[11:10:49] <Éric Vyncke> Ole: with shorter addresses like 32 buts ? 0A000001  ?
[11:10:55] <Éric Vyncke> ;-)
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[11:11:09] <Ole Trøan_> In hindsight multiple addresses per interface hasn't worked out well...
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[11:11:14] <Ted Lemon> Wow, it is really early.
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[11:11:19] <Alexandre Petrescu> thanks
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[11:11:22] <Ted Lemon> Nice seeing you all!
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[11:11:25] <Chris Lemmons> Thank you! That was very enlightening.
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[11:11:28] <Fernando Gont> @ole: you may say it doesn't work at all :-)
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[11:11:35] <Juhamatti Kuusisaari> Thanks!
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[11:11:37] <Dawei Fan> thanks
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[11:12:00] <Fernando Gont> (at least for multiprefix/multirouter)
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[17:13:27] <Bound by Lame> What the chat is about, shortly?
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