IETF
v6ops
v6ops@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, November 6, 2013< ^ >
joel jaeggli has set the subject to: V6OPS IETF 88
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[21:01:11] <John Jason Brzozowski> ietf 88 v6ops session #2 about to begin
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[21:01:47] <Ole Troan> does the audio stream work for anyone else?
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[21:02:17] <John Jason Brzozowski> are u hearing us?
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[21:02:58] <John Jason Brzozowski> ole can you hear us?
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[21:03:10] <Victor Kuarsingh> Victor K, Jabber scribe (wearing special hat)
[21:03:17] <John Jason Brzozowski> thanks victor
[21:03:24] <John Jason Brzozowski> ole can u hear us?
[21:03:31] <John Jason Brzozowski> i just spoke into the mic at you
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[21:05:09] <Victor Kuarsingh> Title slide up
[21:05:51] <Ole Troan> I can hear you, I gave up on IETF audio, now on Andrews lap
[21:06:04] <Victor Kuarsingh> Fred/Chair providing intro - Agenda up (showing both Monday's and Wed)
[21:06:07] <Victor Kuarsingh> Agenda bashing
[21:06:25] <John Jason Brzozowski> audio for today's v6ops session
[21:06:26] <John Jason Brzozowski> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/88/remote-participation.html
[21:07:34] <Victor Kuarsingh> IPv6 Roaming Behavior Analysis Slides Up (title)
[21:07:46] <Victor Kuarsingh> G. Chen speaking
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[21:07:57] <Lee Howard> Nice to see JJBs drowsy face in the corner of the screen
[21:08:03] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide (status/goals) up
[21:09:23] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide Roaming Architecture Up
[21:09:46] <tomtaylor> I can't get the audio
[21:09:55] <Victor Kuarsingh> diagrams show roaming model: Home Routed and Local Breakout
[21:10:12] <John Jason Brzozowski> @tomtaylor did u use the link i posted above?
[21:10:27] <John Jason Brzozowski> @leehoward i used to have a headache
[21:10:34] <tomtaylor> Yes
[21:11:11] <tomtaylor> I even installed Webex, but don't know how to bring up audio on that
[21:12:03] <Victor Kuarsingh> now discussing local breakout use case
[21:12:23] <John Jason Brzozowski> @tomtaylor not sure if webex audio is working...
[21:12:41] <John Jason Brzozowski> we do not have it on from the chairs' laptops
[21:12:43] <John Jason Brzozowski> ole can u hear us?
[21:13:35] <tomtaylor> On the streaming link, Windows Media Center says it can't find the file. Usually that is because streaming hasn't started yet
[21:13:45] <Victor Kuarsingh> Tom, I just tested audio link off the agenda site, and I was able to stream.  Is it still not working?
[21:14:02] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide (Update 1/3)
[21:14:32] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide Update 2/3
[21:14:56] <tomtaylor> Eureka! Got it now, and as good as this morning's plenary
[21:15:21] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker discussing cases from slide
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[21:17:05] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide Update 3/3
[21:17:39] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide Next Steps
[21:17:47] <Victor Kuarsingh> Speaking asking for comments, mic open
[21:17:58] <Victor Kuarsingh> comments on jabber?
[21:18:15] <Victor Kuarsingh> question: have you tired to roam from one country to another?
[21:18:18] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker: yes
[21:19:25] <Victor Kuarsingh> question / BT: echo experience, yes roaming has been tested and failed.  Confirmed problem hindering deployment
[21:19:44] <Victor Kuarsingh> chair asked for clarification
[21:20:22] <Victor Kuarsingh> question / BT: you need a certain level across the operators to deploy it
[21:20:47] <Victor Kuarsingh> it should work, but it doesn't work
[21:20:54] <Victor Kuarsingh> correction, person from DT
[21:21:05] <Victor Kuarsingh> Dave M: Rogers - question
[21:21:16] <Victor Kuarsingh> confirmed issues when customers are abroad.  
[21:21:26] <Victor Kuarsingh> we need to take actions and measures in place
[21:21:56] <Victor Kuarsingh> we should not be in a place the IPv6 only works while on home network, and not while roaming
[21:22:08] <Victor Kuarsingh> chair asked for clarification
[21:22:32] <Victor Kuarsingh> chair asked if we take this back to other standards groups
[21:22:51] <Victor Kuarsingh> Eric K/Google: how much of this is problem in 3GPP and similar
[21:23:17] <Victor Kuarsingh> Eric asked to go back to slide - update 3/3
[21:23:52] Arturo Servin joins the room
[21:24:00] <Victor Kuarsingh> Eric, I don't understand how you roam to IPv6 only network
[21:24:35] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker, we have different networks in .. (did not catch end of comment)
[21:24:44] <Victor Kuarsingh> Erick asked what 3gPP say?
[21:24:51] <Victor Kuarsingh> Eric (typo)
[21:25:19] <Victor Kuarsingh> Deng: commet
[21:25:42] <Victor Kuarsingh> International roaming vs. in country roaming
[21:25:57] <Victor Kuarsingh> he also added use case of IMS based voice (VoLTE) - which has a lot of local break out
[21:26:21] <Victor Kuarsingh> If you have 464 is effective in local network
[21:26:29] <Victor Kuarsingh> Dave M/Rogers back up
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[21:26:46] <Victor Kuarsingh> If we have a network, that expected a user to support dual stack
[21:27:16] <Victor Kuarsingh> Eric, can we disable offload for IPv6 users?
[21:27:43] <Victor Kuarsingh> Dave M, solution from 3GPP, if a node does not understand PDP type should reject
[21:28:01] <Victor Kuarsingh> ?? at mike: what 's next for the draft (to authors?)
[21:28:14] <Victor Kuarsingh> Speaker, hoping to document information, to benefit SDO and others
[21:29:15] Dan York leaves the room
[21:29:28] <Victor Kuarsingh> Chair: as a WG, we have options to produce BCP, Informational.
[21:29:37] <Victor Kuarsingh> we cannot produce standards documents
[21:29:56] <Victor Kuarsingh> Chair: we can produce a recommendation
[21:30:15] <Victor Kuarsingh> ie. send message to 3GPP that work is needed
[21:30:42] <Victor Kuarsingh> Speaker: issue may not happen if specs were followed
[21:31:53] <Victor Kuarsingh> Chair asked if there is an avenue to help with this in the Wireless world
[21:32:10] <Victor Kuarsingh> Deng: GSMA is the answer
[21:32:16] <Victor Kuarsingh> or one of them
[21:32:42] <Victor Kuarsingh> multiple purpose for document.  GSMA and operators
[21:32:54] <Victor Kuarsingh> Chair: if you have two operators, will this work?
[21:32:56] <Victor Kuarsingh> Deng: yes
[21:33:45] <Victor Kuarsingh> commenter ??: opinion - if draft is to make statement - if we want roaming to work for IPv6 , it's not sufficient to that it only works locally
[21:34:07] <Victor Kuarsingh> suggestions about improving document.. document lacks some aspects
[21:34:23] <Victor Kuarsingh> Alex Petrescu is commenter
[21:35:10] <Victor Kuarsingh> exchange between Alex P and Deng
[21:35:53] <Victor Kuarsingh> Mike E: I think documents are valuable
[21:36:59] <Victor Kuarsingh> documents which showed experience is good, and this is the right place (other places not always work)
[21:37:08] <Victor Kuarsingh> Chair:  discussion options
[21:37:18] <Victor Kuarsingh> adopt it , or not adopt it
[21:37:27] <Victor Kuarsingh> Question to audience
[21:37:46] <Victor Kuarsingh> hum for yes - hums heard
[21:38:06] <Victor Kuarsingh> hum for no - not present or slight (based on my position)
[21:38:44] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slides for draft-moreiras-v6ops-rfc3849bis up
[21:39:02] <Victor Kuarsingh> Antonio speaker
[21:39:11] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide Examples
[21:41:35] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide ULA
[21:42:23] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker: you could use ULAs, but not advised
[21:42:49] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker: difficult to explain how ULAs are different from RFC1918
[21:43:33] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide Possibilities discussed in the list
[21:44:46] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker discussing options shown on slide
[21:46:12] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide What are we asking here?
[21:46:43] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker: told this is the best group for this.  But maybe 6man
[21:46:52] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker: looking for feedback
[21:47:06] <Victor Kuarsingh> chair: do you want to know where to take this for IETF89?
[21:47:09] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker: yes
[21:47:19] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker: looking for feedback from this gropu
[21:47:21] <Victor Kuarsingh> group
[21:48:17] <Victor Kuarsingh> Eric V:  I think it's a reasonable problem.  avoid using ULAs and avoiding using existing blocks.  Makes filters more complex and used in old documentation
[21:48:34] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker: main reason for reuse it to not make new filters
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[21:49:29] <Victor Kuarsingh> Geoff H: dumbest thing I did was make a documentation prefix
[21:50:21] <Victor Kuarsingh> Chair: would you like to reserve default as documentation prefix?
[21:50:30] <Victor Kuarsingh> GH: it was never a good idea for documentation prefix
[21:50:47] <Victor Kuarsingh> GH: theory that it gets into routers is nonsense
[21:50:57] <Dan York2> Which slide deck is being described?
[21:51:01] <tonyhain> This is an operational function, so it belongs here, not 6man
[21:51:09] <Victor Kuarsingh> on slide What are we asking here
[21:51:12] <Victor Kuarsingh> has not changed
[21:51:23] <tonyhain> That said, I agree with Geoff that we don't need another one.
[21:51:25] <Ole Troan> Tony if it becomes ::/0 then it changes the IPv6 address architecture. ;-)
[21:52:04] <Arturo Servin> there is block for LISP
[21:52:12] <Ole Troan> And I would really hope no-one used the documentation prefix for operational purposes...
[21:52:14] <Victor Kuarsingh> Lee H: last time we changed address space was (chair - monday).  Lee H: we have regional registries
[21:52:14] <Arturo Servin> /16 o /12 it depends
[21:52:24] <tonyhain> No, it changes operational practice. The architecture stays the same
[21:53:00] <Victor Kuarsingh> Lee H: go back to slide - Possibilities discussed in the list
[21:53:53] <Victor Kuarsingh> Alex: where dose the 4xxx prefix come from?
[21:54:05] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker: saw it on somewhere
[21:54:36] <Victor Kuarsingh> Alex: re 2001:db8 - I think is was a good idea / I was writing a lot of documents
[21:54:47] KK Chittimaneni joins the room
[21:55:34] <Dan York2> Ah, we're talking about http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/88/slides/slides-88-v6ops-8.pdf
[21:55:54] <Ole Troan> And 4xxx is reserved space as well
[21:56:31] <Victor Kuarsingh> Michael: I would disagree with Geoff. people as stupid if they cut/past doc space into routers.  I think it's a good idea
[21:56:46] <John Jason Brzozowski> For audio in case folks are having issues
[21:56:46] <John Jason Brzozowski> http://ietf88streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf887.m3u
[21:57:17] Dave Michaud joins the room
[21:57:23] <Victor Kuarsingh> Eric: in the 90s, people used real addresses and it created issues
[21:58:14] <Victor Kuarsingh> Eric: if you see 4doc - you cannot assume it's not GUA
[21:58:21] <Victor Kuarsingh> it is candidate space
[21:58:38] <Victor Kuarsingh> chair: confirmed that it's for future assignment
[21:58:39] <Ole Troan> Indeed, allocating a 1/8th of the IPv6 address space to documentation prefixes sounds rather ill adviced...
[21:59:02] <Victor Kuarsingh> Ole, want that at the mic?
[21:59:14] <Ole Troan> nah, I think it is covered.
[21:59:17] <Victor Kuarsingh> ok
[21:59:51] <Victor Kuarsingh> Brian: don't assign form unallocated space
[22:00:02] <Victor Kuarsingh> 4doc is cute, but that's it
[22:00:18] <Victor Kuarsingh> comment (person??): where do we stop?  not sure if we need this
[22:00:46] <Victor Kuarsingh> AD / Joel: I think IETF has a long and proud history that IP addresses are only numbers.
[22:00:58] <Victor Kuarsingh> AD: bad Idea to attempt to drive more meaning
[22:01:06] <Victor Kuarsingh> "super bad idea"
[22:01:19] <Lee Howard> Warren Kumari (not at mic): You're no fun anymore!
[22:01:19] <Victor Kuarsingh> Chair: where do we stop? you wanted a /24..
[22:02:31] <Victor Kuarsingh> AD / Joel: the /22 comes from having 22 students in a room?
[22:02:46] <Victor Kuarsingh> what do you need if you have 100 students ?
[22:03:16] <Ole Troan> I'm doing a training of how to do semantic prefixes, where I use about 56 bits of semantic information. So I need a /8 for documentation. One can come up with examples requiring the whole address space. This is a bad idea.
[22:03:31] <Ole Troan> And the above was an ironic example…
[22:03:40] <Victor Kuarsingh> ERic: are be being hyperbolic ?
[22:03:50] <Lee Howard> "Moderate hyperbole"
[22:04:03] <tonyhain> there are more existing prefixes: 2002:ipv4-doc prefixes
[22:04:22] <Lee Howard> Moderate Hyperbole is a John Tesh cover band.
[22:05:04] <Victor Kuarsingh> chair: discussing the options
[22:05:50] <Victor Kuarsingh> Fred T: same point as joel:  OSI use of special prefix (0200)
[22:06:43] <Ole Troan> Who is talking?
[22:06:51] <Victor Kuarsingh> tyrign to get her name
[22:07:25] <Victor Kuarsingh> lex Petrescu
[22:07:35] <Victor Kuarsingh> correction - Jen Linkova
[22:07:43] <Victor Kuarsingh> she made last commnet
[22:07:47] <Ole Troan> thanks
[22:07:47] KK Chittimaneni leaves the room
[22:08:07] <Victor Kuarsingh> New speaker - Eric N
[22:08:45] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide Privacy vs. Operational Considerations
[22:09:05] <Victor Kuarsingh> Interface ID lifetime Algorithms
[22:09:43] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide: Out Assumption and Purpose
[22:10:18] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide: Privacy in IPv4 and IPv6
[22:11:35] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide: Protecting Users' Privacy
[22:12:04] <Victor Kuarsingh> Old, Andrew Y is helping out with names.. he has better vantage point.  Thanks Andrew
[22:12:20] <Victor Kuarsingh> typo /Old/Ole/
[22:12:28] <Ole Troan> thanks
[22:13:13] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide Lifetime for an Interface ID
[22:13:35] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide: Application based lifetime
[22:14:45] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide: Application based lifetime Algorithm
[22:15:18] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide: Thank you
[22:16:52] <Victor Kuarsingh> Andrew Yourchenko: on my wireless equipment.. for simple reason you need to do security at L2..
[22:17:06] <Victor Kuarsingh> in v4 it's simple..
[22:18:06] KK Chittimaneni joins the room
[22:18:19] <Victor Kuarsingh> Andrew Y: local networks operators - not truly interested in ID (need it for ops reasons).
[22:18:38] <Victor Kuarsingh> Eric: Interesting.. reminds him of draft in 2009 (new IP address for every new socket)
[22:19:14] <Victor Kuarsingh> sorry /Eric/Erik/
[22:19:48] <Victor Kuarsingh> Erik: phones already have a /64
[22:20:13] <Victor Kuarsingh> what is easier, is ability to add IIDs
[22:20:44] <Victor Kuarsingh> Speaker: from internal stack, you need to know when you retire them
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[22:23:25] <Victor Kuarsingh> sorry, I was kicked off jabber
[22:23:32] <Victor Kuarsingh> had to close/open
[22:23:51] <Victor Kuarsingh> Michael speaking at mic
[22:24:17] <Victor Kuarsingh> Speaker:
[22:24:29] <Ole Troan> s/Michael/Mikael
[22:24:46] <Victor Kuarsingh> is stack changing ever 5 minutes is that causing heartburn
[22:24:58] <Victor Kuarsingh> oh, noted (thanks Ole)
[22:25:38] <Victor Kuarsingh> Joel J / AD: I have operational experience with this
[22:25:58] <Victor Kuarsingh> if you deploy stuff with low scaling - you will have a hard time
[22:26:23] <Victor Kuarsingh> as a result of ND issues, we have had changes by our vendors
[22:27:00] <Victor Kuarsingh> the control planes hold up, and as long as entires stay below threshold, everything is fine
[22:27:24] <Victor Kuarsingh> the numbers you have may be lower (to speaker)
[22:27:49] <Victor Kuarsingh> Chair / John B: from my point of view, we saw an increase
[22:28:24] <Victor Kuarsingh> we have influence over modem, but not on other stuff behind it
[22:28:56] <Victor Kuarsingh> H. Rafiee at mic
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[22:29:42] <Victor Kuarsingh> lifetime for IIDs would be helpful (noted example with one IP and attacker website)
[22:29:58] <Victor Kuarsingh> Andrew Y: where is the enemy?  evil website?
[22:30:17] <Victor Kuarsingh> speaker answering
[22:30:29] <Victor Kuarsingh> Andrew Y: comments on rate of change
[22:30:42] <Lee Howard> Is it me, or is the room throbbing?
[22:30:58] <Victor Kuarsingh> yes, the room is throbbing.. aliens
[22:31:32] <Victor Kuarsingh> Mikael: on scaling issue
[22:31:37] KK Chittimaneni leaves the room
[22:32:51] <Victor Kuarsingh> Chair / John B: how would you manage the router in that model?
[22:33:01] <Victor Kuarsingh> Mikael: assign loopback
[22:33:33] <Victor Kuarsingh> next slides
[22:33:38] Juan-Pedro Cerezo Martin joins the room
[22:34:09] <Victor Kuarsingh> Speaker B Liu
[22:34:29] <Victor Kuarsingh> DHCPv6/SLAAC Address Configuration Interaction Problem Statement
[22:34:35] <Victor Kuarsingh> slide: comments Received on Monday
[22:34:52] <Victor Kuarsingh> Speaker == Bing Liu
[22:35:30] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide Comments received on Monday
[22:35:55] <Ole Troan> Didn't 6man spend a lot of time engineering that ambiguity....
[22:36:50] <Victor Kuarsingh> Ole, want that a mic?
[22:36:57] <Victor Kuarsingh> Slide Next Step Alternatives
[22:37:32] <Ole Troan> Well, I don't want to dismiss this work. There is ambiguity here, and perhaps there is some wiggle room to improve
[22:37:57] <Ole Troan> Victor, Andrew has promised to carry me over if I need the mike. ;-)
[22:38:08] <Victor Kuarsingh> ok
[22:38:59] <Victor Kuarsingh> Lee H at mic
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[22:39:38] <Victor Kuarsingh> thanks, your preferred path forward is what I was looking for (makes most sense to me).  I would leave guidance to implementors
[22:40:25] <Victor Kuarsingh> Andrew Y at mice
[22:40:29] <Victor Kuarsingh> mic
[22:40:41] <Victor Kuarsingh> chair: any other commnets?
[22:41:17] <Victor Kuarsingh> we are at the same place as monday night
[22:41:59] <Victor Kuarsingh> Eric V, you asked question way too fast
[22:42:08] <Victor Kuarsingh> he is not at mic.. in chair
[22:42:47] <Victor Kuarsingh> Fred: the proposal is to make first doc as comments to 6man (guys we have problem here).  second document is guidance to operators
[22:43:01] <Victor Kuarsingh> option 2, one document with both things in it
[22:43:08] <Victor Kuarsingh> do you like first option
[22:43:18] <Victor Kuarsingh> some hums on option 1
[22:43:28] <Victor Kuarsingh> non heard on option 2
[22:43:32] <Ole Troan> my remote hum apparently worked
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[22:43:45] <Victor Kuarsingh> agenda done
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