IETF
v6ops
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Friday, August 2, 2013< ^ >
joel jaeggli has set the subject to: v6ops IETF 85 thursday 1300 EST
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[06:41:55] joel jaeggli has set the subject to: v6ops ietf 87 friday 0900 cest
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[07:00:52] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: Report on Teredo Sunset Experiment
[07:00:55] <Wes George> anyone remote in jabber?
[07:00:59] <furry13> yes
[07:01:00] <Simon Romano> Current presenter: Dave Thaler
[07:01:01] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: Report on Teredo Sunset Experiment
[07:01:09] <Wes George> audio check?
[07:01:17] <tomkrist> Good audio!
[07:01:22] <furry13> audio is OK for me
[07:01:24] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: Teredo in a nutshell
[07:01:25] <Wes George> please preface comments with mic: if you want them proxied
[07:02:04] <Wes George> if you're not on meetecho, pointer to the slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-v6ops-5.pdf
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[07:02:39] <Tobia Castaldi> ...and FYI, a Meetecho session is available at http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/v6ops
[07:02:46] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Why Sunset Teredo now?
[07:02:49] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: Teredo Sunset Experiment Results
[07:03:03] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Why Sunset Teredo now?
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[07:05:47] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: Teredo Sunset Experiment Results
[07:07:53] <Simon Romano> Slide 5: Teredo Sunset Experiment Results
[07:09:10] <Simon Romano> Slide 6: Teredo Sunset Experiment Results
[07:09:13] <Wes George> we're playing "chase dave" with the camera
[07:09:16] <Wes George> hope you enjoy it
[07:09:29] <Simon Romano> Hard task!
[07:09:45] <Wes George> he must have loaded up on coffee before he started
[07:09:52] <Tobia Castaldi> :D
[07:09:59] <Simon Romano> Slide 7: Effect on overall IPv6 traffic
[07:11:09] <Simon Romano> Slide 8: Conclusions
[07:13:06] <Simon Romano> Slide 9: Conclusions
[07:16:10] <Simon Romano> Presentation stopped
[07:17:07] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: Background
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[07:18:34] <Simon Romano> Looking for the right slide deck...
[07:19:33] <Simon Romano> Hold on...
[07:19:38] <Dan York> Fred just uploaded it
[07:19:46] <Simon Romano> Retrieving them from the materials page.
[07:19:54] <Wes George> pointer : http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-v6ops-13.ppt
[07:20:40] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: Analysis of Semantic Embedded IPv6 
[07:20:46] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Understanding of Semantic Prefix
[07:20:52] <Simon Romano> Here we go.
[07:21:04] <Tom Kristensen> Great!
[07:21:14] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: Understanding of Semantic Prefix(2)
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[07:23:14] <Simon Romano> Slide 5: Understanding of Semantic Prefix(3)
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[07:24:09] <Simon Romano> Slide 6: Potential Benefits
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[07:25:18] <Simon Romano> Slide 7: Potential Drawbacks
[07:27:25] <Simon Romano> Slide 8: Gaps for Complex Semantic Prefix
[07:28:46] <Simon Romano> Slide 9: 
[07:29:31] <Wes George> joel halpern
[07:29:37] <Wes George> please don't publish
[07:29:47] <Wes George> don't even describe
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[07:31:32] <Wes George> lorenzo
[07:31:48] <Simon Romano> Slide 8: Gaps for Complex Semantic Prefix
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[07:32:20] <Wes George> if this is an RFC, this will be construed by some as an endorsement, no matter what we say
[07:32:50] <Wes George> if we are going to describe this, we should spend some time describing the alternate bits in the header that are intended for semantics, TOS, etc
[07:33:17] <Wes George> it's just bits in the header, and the security of doing it in the prefix instead of the header is limited
[07:33:31] <Wes George> keith moore - agree with joel. we understand it'll happen, don't want to encourage it
[07:33:41] <Wes George> overloading the address with things it wasn't intended to do
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[07:34:05] <Wes George> this will encroach on the needs of end users/app writers
[07:34:18] <Wes George> likely to encourage adoption of v6 nat, or longer prefix links
[07:34:24] <Wes George> this is damaging to the architecture
[07:34:44] <Wes George> ok to describe, but needs reasons why you should think hard befor edoing this
[07:35:03] <Wes George> sheng - so we need to expand the drawbacks?
[07:35:18] <Wes George> keith - mildly, but I think it should say "don't do this"
[07:36:06] <Wes George> benedict - had this discussion with a customer. it didn't work. not enough bits, dead end
[07:36:29] <Wes George> prefixes are for routing - add'l semantics end up bloating routing tables unless very careful
[07:36:38] <Wes George> joel jaeggli operator hat
[07:36:48] <Wes George> if we don't want to bless this, let's not publish as WG doc
[07:36:56] <Wes George> the consensus would be "this is a good idea"
[07:37:38] <Wes George> chair discovers physical layer problem with mic
[07:37:38] <Simon Romano> Unplegged in Berlin!
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[07:38:41] <Wes George> DTAG - IPv6-only network called Terrastream - embeds some ToS-like things into the upper prefix bits
[07:39:02] <Wes George> concern over operational impact to the customers
[07:39:11] <Wes George> PA prefixes one per service?
[07:39:31] <Wes George> operational complexity for users
[07:40:26] <Wes George> joel - I am not sure I'd consider harmful, bbut this is more complexity than I had without it
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[07:40:36] <Wes George> other mechanics than I can use to color traffic/assign priority
[07:40:39] <Wes George> upper-layer header
[07:41:07] <Wes George> in the example you cite, there's latitude for describingg what was done - one provider saying what they did
[07:41:11] <Wes George> they don't need the IETF for that
[07:41:19] <Wes George> concerns about that particular piece of complexity
[07:41:32] <Wes George> imposing that on consumers - real operational cost
[07:41:58] <Wes George> in IPv4 w/ prevalence of NAT, we didn't provide sufficiently simple tools to provide multiple addresses, ended up with ugly hacks
[07:42:05] <Wes George> we may need them, but they're not desirable
[07:43:50] <Wes George> erik - really not good to talk about rightmost 64 bits
[07:44:09] <Wes George> don't want people subnetting for semantics
[07:44:57] <Wes George> ole troan - if you're doing critical reading on this, it sort of looks like trying to modify address arch
[07:45:03] <Wes George> agree that there's little value in publishing
[07:45:46] <Wes George> sheng - motivation is to analyse so people who consider can be aware
[07:46:16] <Wes George> keith moore - respod to fred's comment - devices are not generally single-purpose
[07:46:31] <Wes George> for devices that support multiple services, the app now has to be aware
[07:46:54] <Wes George> this isn't the only idea for overloading the address bits, we're goingg to see a tussle over these
[07:46:59] <Wes George> over the bits
[07:47:02] <Wes George> manage the tussle
[07:47:22] <Wes George> fred - you would be looking for a doc to describe a useful use of the arch?
[07:47:27] <Wes George> keith - dunno
[07:47:58] <Wes George> tim chown - within a site, this could be viewed as address plan
[07:48:12] <Wes George> some sites put vlan ids into subnet addresses, 6rd embeds v4 address , etc
[07:48:31] <Wes George> what concerns me is that within a homenet, if the isp is presenting a number of prefixes - how does isp control what uses which
[07:48:56] <Wes George> ian farrel
[07:48:59] <Wes George> been involved in development of DTAG arch
[07:49:10] <Wes George> wanted to answer q about complexity - something we're tryinig to solve now
[07:49:20] <Wes George> some tools already exist
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[07:58:35] <Wes George> test
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[07:58:55] <Wes George> ok, jabber room appeasr to have lost its mind for a while
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[08:04:49] <Wes George> now reviewing http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-v6ops-6.pdf
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[08:04:55] <Wes George> slide 2
[08:05:08] <Dan York> Thanks, Wes, for clueing us in that the room was disconnected
[08:05:26] <Wes George> I was trying to scribe and stopped seeing my typing show up :-)
[08:06:04] <Wes George> slide 3
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[08:07:04] <Wes George> slide 4 "how to find NAT64 prefix"
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[08:08:02] <Wes George> slide "proposed method"
[08:09:03] <Wes George> slide "dns64 relay server"
[08:09:24] <Wes George> slide
[08:09:28] <Wes George> "how to use"
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[08:09:57] <aa> Test
[08:10:13] <Wes George> slide " sample extension for google chrome"
[08:10:22] <Wes George> slide "discussion"
[08:11:17] <Wes George> dave thaler - draft just went through in pcp wg that asks the server instead of using a heuristic
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[08:11:41] <Wes George> difference between that and what I see you proposing is that in your proposal the client doesn't do synthesis
[08:12:13] <Wes George> the dns 64 runs regular synthesis code, removes necessity for client to understand synthesis algorithm, disadvantage -add'l roundtrip
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[08:12:49] <Wes George> fred: so we should discuss the 3 solutions in 6 wgs?
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[08:13:20] <Wes George> graham - compatibility in an env that doesn't have a dns64 - if someone gets used to typing ipv4.tld, it'll fail
[08:13:25] <Dave Thaler> ("draft just went through in pcp":  s/through/through WGLC/)
[08:13:28] <Wes George> how doe sthis get handled
[08:13:41] <Wes George> thanks dave. if you have a pointer, I didn't catch the name
[08:14:09] <Wes George> graham -  a literal in the browser doesn't attempt a query
[08:14:14] <Dave Thaler> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pcp-nat64-prefix64
[08:15:42] <Wes George> jason fesler - would you expect every app be modified, or everyone start publishing tld, or everything just recognize this by magic?
[08:15:59] <Wes George> a: this is a human typing
[08:16:09] <Wes George> we don't think about every application
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[08:16:24] <Wes George> jason - so everywhere I have a url or documentation, the human must reinterpret?
[08:16:33] <Wes George> a: chrome extension
[08:16:51] <Wes George> jason - lots of places where a chrome extension doesn't apply
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[08:19:52] <Wes George> andrew yourtchenko - seeing problems with arping for IPV4 addresses on ipv6-only netowrks - possible security issue
[08:22:12] <Alex> Slide 1: NAT64 Operational Experiences
[08:22:17] <Wes George> Gang Chen now presenting http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-v6ops-11.pdf
[08:22:21] <Alex> Slide 2: History
[08:22:22] <Alex> Slide 1: NAT64 Operational Experiences
[08:22:36] <Alex> Slide 2: History
[08:22:48] <Alex> Current presenter: Gang Chen
[08:22:49] <Alex> Slide 2: History
[08:23:06] <Alex> Slide 3: Updates since IETF#86
[08:23:46] <Alex> Slide 4: Restructure and Rewrite
[08:24:06] <Alex> Slide 5: NAT64-CGN Placement
[08:24:43] <Dave Thaler> Erik mentioned ipv6-literal.net.  Windows does have that registered suffix for purposes of expressing an IPv6 literal in a syntax without colons (for legacy apps/namespaces that don't like colons or %'s in scope ids, etc) with algorithmic conversion to the IPv6 address.
[08:25:19] <Dave Thaler> The difference is that the mapping is consistent everywhere... any box can algorithmically do the same thing themselves, the DNS server or any app or whatever.
[08:25:34] <Alex> Slide 6: Redundancy Design
[08:25:47] <Dave Thaler> In the problem discussed in this WG and in PCP and in Behave, the mapping for an IPv4 literal is different  in each location because the IPv6 prefix can vary.
[08:26:21] <Dave Thaler> And that makes a large difference in how you evaluate solutions.  So yes what Erik said is true, but it's not a close analogy for that reason.
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[08:26:35] <Alex> Slide 7: Status
[08:26:48] <Dave Thaler> (mic line was cut so above is my response here, even though Erik isn't in the jabber room)
[08:27:00] <Alex> Slide 8: Next Step
[08:28:04] <Wes George> lorenzo colitti
[08:28:16] <Wes George> dan york - thanks for writing, need more
[08:28:30] <Wes George> two volunteers for review
[08:28:38] <Wes George> then schedule WGLC
[08:28:55] <Alex> Slide 1: IPv6 Roaming Behavior Analysis
[08:28:59] <Alex> Slide 2: Motivations
[08:29:10] <Wes George> Gang still presenting: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-v6ops-10.pdf
[08:29:22] <Alex> Current presenter: Gang Chen
[08:29:22] <Alex> Slide 2: Motivations
[08:29:25] <Alex> Slide 3: Roaming Architecture
[08:30:45] <Alex> Slide 4: Failure case 1: DS UE->IPv4 networks wit
[08:32:15] <Alex> Slide 5: Failure case 2: DS UE -> old DS networks
[08:33:33] <Alex> Slide 6: Failure case 3: DS UE->IPv6-only network
[08:34:39] <Alex> Slide 7: Failure case 5: IPv6(464xlat) UE->DS/IPv
[08:35:27] <Alex> Slide 8: Summary of Scenarios
[08:35:45] <Alex> Slide 9: Comments
[08:36:12] <Alex> Slide 10: Insights
[08:37:20] <Alex> Slide 11: Next Step
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[08:40:21] <Wes George> hui at mic
[08:40:58] <Alex> Slide 10: Insights
[08:41:03] <Wes George> victor kuarsingh - gsma is the place to fix
[08:41:10] <Wes George> but they can't do the technical input
[08:41:27] <Wes George> if we work on it here, we have the technical expertise, but need to take to gsma or won't be useful
[08:42:13] <Wes George> fred - liason relationship?
[08:42:20] <Wes George> 3gpp?
[08:42:30] <Wes George> victor - no, gsma
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[08:43:11] <Wes George> hui  - we don't have gsma liason, only 3gpp
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[08:43:53] <Wes George> jouni korhonen - the right place to do this is gsma
[08:46:23] <Wes George> I would like to see multiple operators involved with this document
[08:46:57] <Wes George> jan zors - disagree with "if roaming has to be enabled, only solutiojn is IPv4"
[08:47:07] <Wes George> been all over world with IPv6-enabled SIM from 2010
[08:47:13] <Wes George> mostly just works
[08:47:30] <Wes George> breaks only when the operators consciously block v6 on lgsn
[08:47:34] <Wes George> not a technical problem
[08:49:09] <Wes George> jouni
[08:49:14] <Wes George> mikel abramsson
[08:49:27] <Wes George> support documenting this in ietf
[08:49:34] <Wes George> I have no insight in 3gpp and related
[08:49:53] <Wes George> documented here in a way that people can understand - operational recommendations document
[08:49:59] <Wes George> tell 3gpp and others thatwe've done it
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[08:50:06] <Wes George> ask for feedback
[08:50:48] <Wes George> consensus for adopt as WG doc?
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[08:51:30] <Wes George> hums inconclusive
[08:53:06] <Wes George> chris grundemann: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-v6ops-12.pptx
[08:53:07] <Alex> Slide 1: HIPnet, an Incremental Approach
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[08:53:16] <Alex> Slide 2: draft-gundemann-hipnet
[08:53:26] <Alex> Current presenter: chris grundemann
[08:53:26] <Alex> Slide 2: draft-gundemann-hipnet
[08:53:30] <Alex> Slide 3: Overview (1/2)
[08:53:54] <Alex> Slide 4: Overview (2/2)
[08:54:20] <Alex> Slide 5: Future Home Network Structure
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[08:55:04] <Alex> Slide 6: HIPnet Creates a Logical Hierarchy from
[08:55:26] <Alex> Slide 7: Recursive PD
[08:56:13] <Alex> Slide 8: Multiple Address Family Support: Link ID
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[08:57:44] <Alex> Slide 9: Basic Multi-homing
[08:58:14] <Alex> Slide 10: draft-jvkjjmb-home-networkingincremental
[08:58:17] <Alex> Slide 11: Overview
[08:58:43] <Alex> Slide 12: Structure
[08:59:09] <Alex> Slide 13: Feedback and comments
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[08:59:50] <Alex> Slide 14: Discussion
[09:00:19] <Wes George> session ends
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