IETF
v6ops
v6ops@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, 26 July 2011< ^ >
Patrik Halfar has set the subject to: v6ops -- IETF80
Room Configuration

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[12:16:58] <Joel Jaeggli> v6ops meeting 0900 EDT 7/26
[12:17:29] <Joel Jaeggli> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/agenda?item=agenda81.html
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[12:55:33] <Joel Jaeggli> Meeting will begin in 5 minutes
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[12:58:35] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - welcome to v6ops
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[12:58:40] <Joel Jaeggli> walk through the agenda
[12:59:15] <Joel Jaeggli> ncp was important
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[13:00:08] <Joel Jaeggli> 40 different documents in v6ops
[13:00:21] <Joel Jaeggli> we could give each person 3 minutes of time
[13:00:26] <Joel Jaeggli> only 30 are current
[13:00:38] <Joel Jaeggli> we put about 20 of them on the agenda
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[13:01:08] <Joel Jaeggli> we' have added 3 more drafts to firday afternoon, so we have a little more room on the agenda.
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[13:01:37] <Joel Jaeggli> this morning has two sections world ipv6 day
[13:01:46] <Joel Jaeggli> is section one
[13:02:10] <Joel Jaeggli> are there messages we need to send to the ietf about what needs to better
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[13:02:22] <Joel Jaeggli> second section - old business
[13:02:51] <Joel Jaeggli> thursday - whole bunch of drafts
[13:03:02] <Joel Jaeggli> agenda bashing?
[13:03:13] <Joel Jaeggli> seeing none
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[13:04:31] <Joel Jaeggli> present number 1 - world ipv6 day measurement results.
[13:04:42] <Joel Jaeggli> yesterday measurement from world ipv6 day
[13:04:55] <Joel Jaeggli> from content providers
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[13:05:07] <Joel Jaeggli> these results from ericsson's test sites
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[13:05:58] <Joel Jaeggli> dns tests - what's is franction of axela top sites that have AAAA records
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[13:06:39] <Joel Jaeggli> to start around 250 sites had 4a reocrds
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[13:07:10] <Joel Jaeggli> www sites more than trippled during the days
[13:07:49] <Joel Jaeggli> afterwards level is higher 310 vs 250
[13:08:07] <Carlos Martinez> are the slides somewhere to be found ?
[13:08:19] <bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html#wg-v6ops
[13:08:21] <Joel Jaeggli> v
[13:08:23] <Joel Jaeggli> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/agenda?item=agenda81.html
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[13:08:35] <Joel Jaeggli> tcp connections tests
[13:08:56] <Carlos Martinez> tks!
[13:09:10] <Joel Jaeggli> inacessible sites
[13:09:48] <Joel Jaeggli> initially almost 25% of sites did not respond to tcp tests
[13:10:12] <Joel Jaeggli> failure rates during ipv6 test reduced to ~10%
[13:10:25] <Joel Jaeggli> delay difference v4 to v6
[13:11:14] <Joel Jaeggli> essentially v6 is with 5ms from vantage point.
[13:12:25] <Joel Jaeggli> ipv6 day had visibily and long lasting impact on the quality of v6 sirvice.
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[13:13:55] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - you might bring it to the list and people should look at the data in the draft
[13:14:15] <Joel Jaeggli> christopher palmer - ipv6 day at microsoft
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[13:14:27] <Joel Jaeggli> ipv6 program manager at microsofot
[13:14:35] <Joel Jaeggli> microsoft
[13:15:20] <Joel Jaeggli> goals - setup our contnent without breaking our users, measure our user base drive load through the software
[13:15:35] <Joel Jaeggli> three big websites - bing xbox
[13:16:00] <Joel Jaeggli> end result - almost no connectivty issues
[13:16:36] <Joel Jaeggli> as part of the work we did - we warned every customer customer in japan due to non-routable address
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[13:17:15] <Joel Jaeggli> temporary fix that depricated v6 in the preference table 2500 downloads (negligible)
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[13:17:28] <Joel Jaeggli> gaming properties are still on
[13:17:42] <Joel Jaeggli> the numbers are kind of getting worse to be honest
[13:17:48] <Joel Jaeggli> the sad graph
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[13:18:38] <Joel Jaeggli> basically half a percent of the user base
[13:19:26] <Joel Jaeggli> 7% of our folks were windows xp because you have to turn it on.
[13:19:52] <Joel Jaeggli> 91% native
[13:19:57] <Joel Jaeggli> 8% 6to4
[13:20:03] <danny> where are the slides?
[13:20:09] <Joel Jaeggli> 1% teredo
[13:20:18] <Joel Jaeggli> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/agenda?item=agenda81.html
[13:20:36] <Joel Jaeggli> getting v6 ready to go was easier than expected.
[13:20:55] <Joel Jaeggli> cdn's delivered (really at the last minute) but they were there
[13:20:57] <danny> I have that, but where are the slides?
[13:21:05] <Joel Jaeggli> it's hard to say that we validated at scale
[13:21:16] <Joel Jaeggli> it's the second preso
[13:21:25] <Joel Jaeggli> http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/81/slides/v6ops-1.pptx
[13:22:11] <Joel Jaeggli> further depref of 6to4
[13:22:19] <Joel Jaeggli> v6 brokeneness
[13:22:36] <Joel Jaeggli> basically zero worthwhile geolocation data with v6
[13:22:48] <Joel Jaeggli> access numbers are a downer
[13:22:51] <HUI> could you predict how many website sitting behind of NAT64?
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[13:23:50] <Joel Jaeggli> ralph droms - clarification question v6 geolocation is it unavailable or incorrect
[13:24:04] <Joel Jaeggli> we use third parties and they're lacking the data
[13:24:20] <Joel Jaeggli> wes george - regarding windows xp it's not going away
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[13:25:13] <Joel Jaeggli> what would it take for microsfot's perspective to roll a patch that enables on windows xp
[13:25:26] <Joel Jaeggli> it's something we've generically been thing about
[13:25:48] <Joel Jaeggli> there's 1000 days of xp
[13:25:50] <Joel Jaeggli> left
[13:26:40] <Joel Jaeggli> lee howard - you dualstack xbox.com but the xbox platform does not support v6
[13:26:44] <Joel Jaeggli> correct
[13:27:23] <Joel Jaeggli> lee h - the upgrade path is very differnt for software vs hardward
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[13:28:04] <Joel Jaeggli> dave thaler - what the xbox does when it's running the os in the box versus whats on the game.
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[13:28:41] <Joel Jaeggli> people on xbox spend a lot of time on the xbox not playing games
[13:29:04] <Joel Jaeggli> lorenzo - one of the main things you got out of this was removal of of fear.
[13:29:22] <Joel Jaeggli> how do you lock in those gains, if you do nothing the fear will come back
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[13:30:20] <Joel Jaeggli> - so I will totally give points to the value of it not being so much fear we can get it out there even quickly. we're taking baby steps, added zune.net
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[13:30:38] <Joel Jaeggli> access numbers need to change, show me the users
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[13:31:06] <Joel Jaeggli> frad - part ot avoid the recreation of fear is "how well does it work"
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[13:31:32] <Joel Jaeggli> we should talk about it from that perspective
[13:32:00] <Joel Jaeggli> john prowsouski - we see duplicate duid when windows devices to dhcpv6
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[13:32:15] <Joel Jaeggli> creates an opperational complication.
[13:32:22] <Joel Jaeggli> fix coming in the next two months
[13:32:36] <Joel Jaeggli> stack changes happening in sept
[13:32:47] <Joel Jaeggli> lorenzo - will that include the ics fix
[13:32:48] <danny> duplicate IP addresses?
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[13:32:56] <Joel Jaeggli> no...
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[13:33:50] <Joel Jaeggli> marshall - do you think there is sufficient busineess model for a company to produce ipv6 geolocation data
[13:34:17] <Joel Jaeggli> eric kline - happy eyeballs or fash fallback can ie join the other browsers
[13:34:29] <Joel Jaeggli> we're inclided to make changes to 3484
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[13:35:10] <Joel Jaeggli> eric kline, so things like multiconnect help to.
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[13:35:40] <Joel Jaeggli> so things like happy eyeballs are useful, but fuzzy towards the no.
[13:35:56] <Joel Jaeggli> dan wing - hey your v6 is broken
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[13:36:50] <Joel Jaeggli> is not generic to the whole internet, may work in your office or home, entire user expereince that suffers behind nats,.
[13:37:01] <Joel Jaeggli> a solution has to have scope
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[13:37:23] <Joel Jaeggli> top concern with he implmentation
[13:37:41] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - dan you can turn off v4, thanks chris
[13:38:02] <Joel Jaeggli> bob hinden checkpoint world ipv6 day experience
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[13:38:52] <Joel Jaeggli> we're not the same as a lot of other companies that talk about their experience
[13:39:37] <Joel Jaeggli> we had no ipv6 presence outside of me
[13:40:02] <Joel Jaeggli> we did have an arin allocation, was fairly straight forward
[13:40:19] <Joel Jaeggli> goal was to get the external web site v6 enabled
[13:40:37] <Joel Jaeggli> it had lots of questions (do we need new dns servers)
[13:40:46] <Joel Jaeggli> was an educational process.
[13:40:56] <Joel Jaeggli> setup a meeting iwth the it team at ISC
[13:42:07] <Joel Jaeggli> advertised prefix to isp who supported v6, used our own firewall
[13:42:51] <Joel Jaeggli> first conclusion - it was not as hard as the it team initially expected
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[13:43:23] <Joel Jaeggli> our isp and all of our existing deployed equipments supported v6
[13:43:39] <Joel Jaeggli> just worked around issues, no upgrades required
[13:43:51] <Joel Jaeggli> adding dual stack didn't degrade ipv4
[13:44:20] <Joel Jaeggli> the load balancer approach worked well.
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[13:45:12] <Joel Jaeggli> the concerns raised about brokeness doesn't seem to be a big concern
[13:45:32] <Joel Jaeggli> other organizations may be similar
[13:45:40] <Joel Jaeggli> bob - any questions?
[13:46:03] <Wes George> mark townsley at the mic
[13:46:32] <Joel Jaeggli> mark townsley - in our expereince there are lot of things which we can just leave up
[13:46:58] <Joel Jaeggli> there's a lot of legacy stuff that has to be validated
[13:47:47] <Joel Jaeggli> fewer locations for our v6 load balancers.
[13:47:58] <Joel Jaeggli> bob - didn't get in early enough on the cdn beta
[13:48:28] <Joel Jaeggli> by doing thise we're now having conversations but running it inside checkpoint.
[13:48:34] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - thanks bobo
[13:50:06] <Joel Jaeggli> bert W - world ipv6 day what did we learn (ripe ncc)
[13:50:40] <Joel Jaeggli> ipv6 eyechart see what the situation would be for you on ipv6 day
[13:51:01] <Joel Jaeggli> about 40 measurement points
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[13:51:40] <Joel Jaeggli> when did world ipv6 day start?
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[13:51:56] <Joel Jaeggli> 2 days before negative cache ttl dropped
[13:52:24] <Joel Jaeggli> percentage of vantage points seeing AAAA
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[13:53:11] <Joel Jaeggli> things you you don't want to have happen
[13:53:29] <Joel Jaeggli> or this
[13:53:47] <Joel Jaeggli> stopped ipv6 service but kept announcing their AAAA records for quite a while
[13:54:10] <Joel Jaeggli> the internet is a collection of internets connected to each other.
[13:54:48] <Joel Jaeggli> so some of our vantage points exposed partitioning, confirmed with further discussion
[13:55:41] <Joel Jaeggli> important - when you want to deploy something, do test
[13:55:57] <Joel Jaeggli> monitor your infrastructure
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[13:57:02] <Joel Jaeggli> performance for source destination pairs. ipv4 was a little better close however
[13:57:36] <Joel Jaeggli> alexa data
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[13:59:10] <Joel Jaeggli> number of ases advertising ipv6 prefixes increased every day
[14:00:07] <Joel Jaeggli> conclusions - it works just fine, you have to make sure it's properly monitored
[14:00:25] <Joel Jaeggli> days like this worked
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[14:01:06] <Joel Jaeggli> alain durant - do you look at the propigation of /48 prefixed
[14:01:10] <Joel Jaeggli> s
[14:01:34] <Joel Jaeggli> we announced a /48
[14:01:50] <Joel Jaeggli> some providers still filtering
[14:03:59] <Joel Jaeggli> hue deng - nat 64 for can you detect
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[14:07:45] <Joel Jaeggli> joel - question everyone uses a load balancer at scale what are you going to try to find ?
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[14:08:38] <Joel Jaeggli> alain - we have lost the identiy of the user.
[14:09:39] <Joel Jaeggli> martin - world ipv6 day operations review
[14:11:05] <Joel Jaeggli> hurricane electric operators review
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[14:14:25] <Joel Jaeggli> in theory v6 didn't need a deadline, it wasn't just the players that got involved it was the ceo's and cto's that got involved
[14:15:34] <Joel Jaeggli> immediate jump in bandwith on our network, 0000 utc is a nice time but it a peak generally in some traffic world wide
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[14:16:26] <Joel Jaeggli> only on the port 80/443 traffic had any impact on ipv6 bandwidth consuption on ipv6 day
[14:16:35] <Joel Jaeggli> we credit this to youtube
[14:16:57] <Joel Jaeggli> no y axis on this graph but it is zero
[14:19:26] <Joel Jaeggli> native v6 traffic vs 6to4 vs teredo, it's non-trivial volume of 6to4 traffic, about 1/3 of the ttoal volume
[14:19:40] <Joel Jaeggli> why does it occur?
[14:20:24] <Joel Jaeggli> 6to4 records in AAAA records, we don't know why
[14:21:07] <Joel Jaeggli> if connections are coming in to a 2002: address wouldn't it be better to redirect if your could, not an easy thing to do
[14:21:17] <Joel Jaeggli> pmtu and icmp blocking
[14:21:28] <Joel Jaeggli> icmp6 blocking
[14:22:38] <Joel Jaeggli> teredo tunnel requires the endpoint to return an ipcm6 ping.
[14:23:19] <Joel Jaeggli> progress report
[14:25:26] <jinmei> Ss
[14:25:37] <Joel Jaeggli> 11% of AS are enabled, if you count adjacencies by the time that you get to 7 adjacencies about 50% of those players are v6 enabled
[14:27:20] <Joel Jaeggli> jeff h - your commentary about teredo and icmp6 isn't gelling for me, at the client side the icmp is in udp. the modified stun protocol in teredo guesses wrong about 37% of the time wuth the nat binding
[14:27:25] <Joel Jaeggli> it's not filtering
[14:28:09] <Joel Jaeggli> martin - we could be here all day talking about teredo failures.
[14:29:02] <Joel Jaeggli> comcast ipv6 experiences - updated draft
[14:31:04] <Joel Jaeggli> traffic increased notiably during world ipv6 day teredo unchanged, 6to4 doubled was noticable but native surpassed (6x) any tunneled
[14:31:48] <Joel Jaeggli> 6rd (trial users) usage doubled
[14:32:08] <Joel Jaeggli> comcast enabled ipv6 smtp for world ipv6 day
[14:34:11] <Joel Jaeggli> additional trials - dslite
[14:34:27] <Joel Jaeggli> native dual stack validated, preparing for production deployment
[14:36:09] <Joel Jaeggli> took jason felsers ipv6 test code did 30,000 tests, found some users that were potentially impacted.
[14:37:08] <Joel Jaeggli> hue deng - how is your backoffice deployment supporting v6
[14:37:55] <Joel Jaeggli> jjmb - we've been working on it for about 6 years, the edge of the broadband netowrk is where the effort is
[14:38:29] <Joel Jaeggli> lee howard - I trie to thank john becasue we started 3 years ago which means that things have gone much faster.
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[14:39:17] <Joel Jaeggli> chris palmer, visibility in houshold cusotmers that have gateways that don't support v6
[14:39:33] <Joel Jaeggli> jjmb - the vast majority...
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[14:40:24] <Joel Jaeggli> when we enable it if the boradband network, we can tell people hey guys you need to upgrade
[14:41:39] <Joel Jaeggli> chris - my concern stems from half devices do support it then maybe 1/4 in househols
[14:42:10] <Joel Jaeggli> lorenzo c - as a customer and a v6 great job it works as well as v4
[14:43:02] <Joel Jaeggli> if you went all out how long would it take you to bring v6 to 1% of your subscribers
[14:45:46] <Joel Jaeggli> jjmb - 1% is doable pretty easy the question is more like 90%
[14:46:00] <Joel Jaeggli> hockey sticks in future graphs
[14:46:06] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - great thank you
[14:46:25] <Joel Jaeggli> report on the status of call to arms
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[14:47:13] <Joel Jaeggli> it doesn't have a lot of value as an rfc so tim will let it lapse, but the info will go into some other drafts.
[14:47:33] <Joel Jaeggli> dan ing - happyeyeballs
[14:47:55] <Joel Jaeggli> algorythm that described how to make clients less broken
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[14:49:10] <Joel Jaeggli> instead of describing it, we decided to describe requirements, two versions, stateless (e.g. chrome firefox) vs stateful algorithms
[14:49:51] <Joel Jaeggli> wether on not we want to prefer v6 over v4 under normal circumstances.
[14:50:17] <Joel Jaeggli> - is that a perceptual issue?
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[14:50:46] <Joel Jaeggli> chris palmer - I think this direction is fantastic, requirements are good.
[14:51:24] <Joel Jaeggli> aaa whitelisting implications
[14:52:54] <Joel Jaeggli> lot of feedback from iesg, from version 3-6, next step for the wg to look at it again. but we talked to implmentors and it needs a another rev to make it more accptable to a swath of the community
[14:53:39] <Joel Jaeggli> wes goerge - orignal goal was to talk about ipv6 whitelisting as an approach to fix brokeneness.
[14:54:26] <Joel Jaeggli> - when this approach was first tried manual was the only approach
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[14:56:07] <Joel Jaeggli> lorenzo - when we started this is was becasue we had no alterntive, we removed ourselves from the discussion, because we thought it was a cruitque of us. it's possible that we can come to produce a document that we can accept.
[14:57:08] <Joel Jaeggli> jari arko - the current draft during the iesg mode said white listing bad difference between this approach.
[14:57:35] <Joel Jaeggli> survey that helps the real world that 's deploying it .
[14:59:56] <Joel Jaeggli> joel - gtm gslb
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[15:01:39] <Joel Jaeggli> lorenzo - focus on intent and consequences in current document,
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[15:02:27] <Joel Jaeggli> - is there something for dnsop that we should take to dnsop.
[15:02:44] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - yeah there is oemthing that we should probably take to dnsop
[15:03:09] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - next thing I have is really a response to the appeal.
[15:03:48] <Joel Jaeggli> how did you determine consensus
[15:04:47] <Joel Jaeggli> keith - I'm convinced that you've done due dilligence with respect to the wg consensus
[15:05:10] <Joel Jaeggli> worth noting that the draft did have some impact.
[15:06:56] <Joel Jaeggli> several vendors have asked for a statement accordingly.
[15:09:23] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - we don't see the question asupdating 2026.
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[15:10:25] <Joel Jaeggli> dave thaler - clarifying question waht venue (ietf and v6ops list)
[15:11:38] <Joel Jaeggli> mark townsley - should we register
[15:11:39] <Joel Jaeggli> again
[15:12:29] <Joel Jaeggli> martin - when do we turn it off based on what criterion
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[15:13:02] <Joel Jaeggli> j b - when you see a diminshed traffic you'll do it.
[15:13:25] <Joel Jaeggli> james woodyatt from my updated opinion from ron
[15:13:45] <Joel Jaeggli> i would recomend we would immeditedly remove it from the products.
[15:14:20] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - next presentation
[15:14:33] <Joel Jaeggli> mike ackerman ip id identification field -
[15:15:15] <Joel Jaeggli> ipid field in ipv4 unique idenfitying number for pakcet sequnce in a flow
[15:15:36] <Joel Jaeggli> exists for fragmentation, used for flow
[15:17:09] <Joel Jaeggli> recomendations for ipid field in ipv6 - recomended that it only be sent on request
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[15:17:59] <Joel Jaeggli> 32 or 64 bit field prefer 64
[15:18:13] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - let me pose the question to the group
[15:19:17] <Joel Jaeggli> would like to understand packet flow in their network, draft in 6man, do you used the ipid in ipv4
[15:19:23] <Joel Jaeggli> please hum if you use it?
[15:19:42] <Joel Jaeggli> wes george - we use this all the time? I've never heard of it.
[15:20:11] <Joel Jaeggli> the reason that the two of us are here is I'm the customer and she's the vendor
[15:20:55] <Joel Jaeggli> we use to indentify problems in packet traces
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[15:21:49] <Joel Jaeggli> mike is from blue-cross, we do diagnostic large financial and healthcare networks
[15:22:19] <Joel Jaeggli> francis dupont first it's a covert channel
[15:22:37] <Joel Jaeggli> so it's not go for most security I know
[15:22:56] <Joel Jaeggli> also why not use the fragmentation header
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[15:24:08] <Joel Jaeggli> bob hinden - we definently want to hear if this is useful , I don't know who puts this header in the packet,
[15:24:18] <Joel Jaeggli> nalini - the source clearly
[15:24:46] <Joel Jaeggli> bob - you're asking the host vendors to support it
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[15:26:19] <Joel Jaeggli> andrei yourchecko - typical use case for this header for would be to see if a middle box is modifying the packet.
[15:26:58] <Joel Jaeggli> warren kumari - one of the concerns is this would require packets to get punted to slow path.
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[15:27:28] <Joel Jaeggli> adrei - what do you think of the potential heisenberg effects
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[15:28:02] <Joel Jaeggli> from the addition of the header
[15:29:37] <Joel Jaeggli> fred - what I'm geting out of this, application isn't a bad one, it could be simulated in fragment
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[15:29:57] <Joel Jaeggli> teko - we have a similar protocol approach
[15:30:07] <Joel Jaeggli> the disucssion now needs to move to 6man
[15:30:29] <Joel Jaeggli> -fred - this is the last one for the day
[15:31:09] <Joel Jaeggli> vochek - stateless 4via6 address sharing
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[15:31:30] <Joel Jaeggli> first on the the agenda on thursday
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[15:31:44] <Joel Jaeggli> fred -thank you dec, guys go to lunch
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[15:48:02] <Joel Jaeggli> fyi two phones found in the meeting room should be with the secretariat
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