[01:55:50] hawaiyan joins the room [01:56:05] hawaiyan leaves the room [03:04:36] mwtr joins the room [03:04:47] mwtr leaves the room [03:10:32] mawatari joins the room [03:44:44] markkao joins the room [03:53:47] nnnshin joins the room [03:54:36] fdupont joins the room [03:57:24] karen.s.seo joins the room [03:57:44] Ruri Hiromi joins the room [03:57:53] shingo.ata joins the room [03:58:00] Barbara joins the room [03:58:10] shingo.ata leaves the room [03:58:40] marka joins the room [03:58:50] shingo.ata joins the room [03:59:29] shingo.ata leaves the room [03:59:29] kawamucho joins the room [04:00:15] Wes George joins the room [04:00:27] fujisaki joins the room [04:00:37] jhw joins the room [04:00:42] Tadamichi Matsuyama joins the room [04:01:19] yo.takata joins the room [04:01:49] hirocomb joins the room [04:02:27] Colman Ho joins the room [04:03:04] Mat Ford joins the room [04:03:24] toshio.hiraga joins the room [04:03:36] tetsuya.innami joins the room [04:04:42] eascenco joins the room [04:05:23] rhe joins the room [04:05:32] roque@hiroshima joins the room [04:05:32] Takehito Akagiri joins the room [04:05:38] arifumi joins the room [04:05:38] who is the jabber scribe? [04:05:38] Bruno STEVANT joins the room [04:05:42] Lee Howard joins the room [04:05:47] tkondo joins the room [04:06:06] mellon joins the room [04:06:06] YuzoTateno joins the room [04:06:09] s-takuo joins the room [04:06:14] donley.chris joins the room [04:06:42] jjmbcom@gmail.com joins the room [04:06:45] Chris Griffiths joins the room [04:06:53] townsley is up [04:06:54] jinmei joins the room [04:06:58] agenda has been bashed [04:07:05] fred talked about tue and thur agenda [04:07:10] back to townsley [04:07:26] raft-vyncke-advanced-ipv6-security-00.txt [04:07:28] draft-vyncke-advanced-ipv6-security-00.txt [04:07:28] shinmiyakawa joins the room [04:07:43] DTHALER-WIN7 joins the room [04:07:45] Audio stream is here: http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/ietf767.m3u [04:07:49] v6ops discussing residential gateway security [04:07:54] shamus joins the room [04:08:00] this is IETF76 isn't it ? :-) -> Title [04:08:21] this is ietf76 [04:08:26] Time travel... [04:08:27] marka has set the subject to: v6ops -- IETF76 [04:08:28] kawashimam joins the room [04:08:38] focus of draft enterprise centric [04:09:23] Comment: "actively updated" isn't what we see today. [04:09:55] It's possible if the vendors actually released fixes [04:09:59] @jhw - what are you referring to? [04:10:18] kbransom joins the room [04:10:27] Most inexpensive home gateways are never updated by their owners. [04:10:30] If you have a router that runs OpenWRT or DD-WRT, updates are no problem. [04:10:35] draft includes 7 policies [04:10:50] ownrs need to learn [04:10:56] Mark is saying that to do IPv6 right you have to stop with the non-updating routers. [04:11:00] I have read the draft. I'm making comments about some of the assumptions that Mark is making at the mic. I'm listening to the audio feed. [04:11:10] ok [04:11:22] @jhw let me know if i need to get to mic for you [04:11:27] yeah I have read the draft too, and what marks saying is different from the impression I came away from on the draft [04:11:32] nm joins the room [04:11:39] work in progress [04:11:41] Yeah, tell that to my mother (that she needs to learn). [04:11:54] Shane Amante joins the room [04:11:54] I will use the "mic:" prefix for comments that I want taken to the microphone. Otherwise, I'm just jabbering into the jabber log. [04:11:56] your mother shouldn't have to update the router. she should just buy a router that updates itself. [04:12:03] @jhw ack [04:12:13] routers should update themselves [04:12:38] TPLUNKE joins the room [04:12:45] Ah yes, but should my mother get a choice on where her router gets its dynamic updates, and how does she establish a trust relationship with that provider? [04:12:56] jacniq joins the room [04:12:58] BT's CPE is self-updating, has been for a long while [04:13:02] default, it's the manufacturer. [04:13:08] right [04:13:14] DTHALER-WIN7 leaves the room [04:13:20] Dave Thaler joins the room [04:13:27] markkao leaves the room [04:13:28] mark is reviewing 7 policies covered in the draft [04:14:00] Most major service provider routers are self-updating, with a configurable option to turn that off. [04:14:49] mawatari leaves the room [04:14:59] Hmf. Well, if we want to encourage the model that the subscriber demarcation point is at the LAN ports on the CPE router, then this makes sense... [04:15:17] mawatari joins the room [04:16:41] 7 policies are intended to be a starting point [04:16:46] I think some of these policies are well worth considering. Others, not so much. [04:17:00] @jhw will you send which to the list? [04:17:08] Sure. [04:18:01] possible next steps from mark [04:18:25] @fredbaker at the mic [04:18:31] trying to get rfid tag to work [04:18:36] :( [04:18:55] how much manual intervention is expected? [04:18:58] is the question [04:19:08] this is an architectural proposal [04:19:12] details are forthcomg ;) [04:19:24] nice handwave... [04:19:44] I think it's a good answer, if providers like that actually come into existence. [04:19:57] was indeed a nice handwave -- magic [04:19:58] poof [04:21:05] fred offers illustration of how complexity can be problematic [04:21:16] he is concerned about usability -- i think [04:21:19] port forward would be the front left part of the ship, right? [04:21:57] @ronbonica [04:22:08] asks if any of this is ipv6 specific -- marks says no [04:22:18] mic queues are growing [04:22:21] :O [04:22:40] acts_as_hacker joins the room [04:22:56] question about dyn updates [04:23:02] @vynke is at the mic [04:23:09] goal is to be *easy* [04:23:42] Eason joins the room [04:23:45] bnsmith joins the room [04:23:52] If anyone thinks anti-virus is _easy_ for users, they should meet _my_ mother. [04:24:17] @wesgeorge at the mic [04:24:19] yeah, well, if anybody thinks anti-virus is easy in any sense, they should put a thermometer on their CPU. [04:24:26] reiterate comment in the jabber room above [04:24:57] Bruno STEVANT leaves the room [04:25:21] proposal is to be user-invisible, outsource IPS to vendor ISP, right? unless user overrides. [04:25:38] @fredbake capping the mic [04:25:57] marc.blanchet.qc joins the room [04:25:59] positive reference to simple security draft [04:26:17] sigh. [04:27:41] Now, THAT's a solution. My home router should ask someone external each time if I can connect to it or not. THAT'S not a privacy nightmare. :) [04:28:34] it'll end up being you fighting with your ISP as to who owns your security - they'll disable things by default, you'll enable, etc [04:28:34] @mark says with simple security coming he wishes to ensure there are alternatives [04:28:53] tachibana@jabber.org joins the room [04:29:18] Alternatives is probably good. May the best, least painful, most effective alternative win. [04:29:19] @mark is done [04:29:27] pulled [04:29:36] Bruno STEVANT joins the room [04:30:01] @vynke is up draft-defeche-ipv6-traffic-in-p2p-networks-00.txt [04:30:17] Eason leaves the room [04:30:39] draft related to some research work [04:30:48] bittorrent and ipv6 analysis [04:31:34] interesting questions about use of ipv6 by *torrent [04:31:36] Eason joins the room [04:32:12] overview of bittorrent [04:33:40] sent comments on I-D.vyncke-advanced-ipv6-security. [04:34:02] whoa...LSD is part of bittorrent :) [04:34:02] cool [04:34:08] sign me up [04:34:13] @jhw thanks [04:34:50] many if not all protos used by BT support ipv6 [04:34:53] shinmiyakawa leaves the room: Replaced by new connection [04:35:57] review of methodology [04:36:38] interesting -- no content was ever download [04:36:39] and LSD is IPv6-ready ;) [04:36:42] ed [04:36:54] @arifumi - nice [04:37:37] 5M peers discovered [04:37:40] 2% supported ipv6 [04:37:43] ~143K [04:37:47] supported ipv6 [04:38:26] very interesting chart describing types of ipv6 addresses [04:40:47] global overview of what sort of ipv6 is used in various geographical areas [04:42:40] oops [04:42:46] had to sign blue sheet [04:42:50] @vynke is done [04:42:55] @oletroan is up [04:43:00] vp cpe requirements update [04:43:29] v6 cpe rqrts will be in two phases [04:43:48] mic: I'd like to know if the outliers on the RTT: IPv4 vs. IPv6 graph can be related to transitional relays, i.e. 6to4 and Teredo. [04:43:53] draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-02.txt [04:43:55] @jhw [04:43:59] vyke is done [04:44:05] Grmf. No question time. [04:44:09] can u send mail? [04:44:22] to vynke [04:44:25] and or list? [04:44:25] I was just curious. [04:44:39] sorry [04:44:44] @jhw sorry [04:44:51] np [04:44:52] it sounds like he is going to post the results on a site periodically, and is willing to send out the entire thesis if you want it [04:45:00] send him mail re: thesis [04:45:31] phase I [04:45:36] represents the basics [04:45:40] fundamentals [04:46:12] mawatari leaves the room [04:46:13] there is a question [04:46:16] not sure what it is... [04:47:07] @magnus is asking for some clarification [04:47:12] @briancarpenter [04:47:17] suggests putting it in write up [04:47:32] @brian to mail @fred [04:48:24] @chair asks that comments be sent to list [04:48:34] @ole intends to spin one last revision [04:48:43] then wglc [04:48:47] per @fred [04:48:53] questions? [04:49:10] @hemant draft-wbeebee-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-bis-01.txt [04:49:12] is up [04:51:56] becarpenter joins the room [04:52:09] sounds like @hemnt is working on Phase II draft of v6 cpe requirements [04:52:43] draft-cui-softwire-pet-01.txt is up [04:52:48] no idea who the presenter is... [04:53:11] wow, terrible sound quality, and I'm in the room [04:53:13] (Yong Cui?) [04:53:21] himeno joins the room [04:53:23] @lee what? [04:53:27] We need to make sure CPE devices don't end up like the BSD IPv6 Socket API @ POSIX [04:53:29] yes, yong cui is the presenter [04:54:45] himeno leaves the room [04:55:01] Ole Troan joins the room [04:55:11] @jjb the sound system seems to be adding some distortion. [04:55:34] i've got great audio here in california. [04:55:43] OK, good. [04:56:03] @lee what? [04:56:05] :) [04:56:27] should I type louder? [04:56:38] lol [04:56:58] @cui discussing motivation [04:57:13] this is a confusing slide. [04:57:28] translation != stateful [04:57:39] agree it's confusing too [04:58:18] some of the NAT64 proposals are stateful, aren't they? [04:58:26] YuzoTateno leaves the room [04:58:31] i think this is another good idea, but bad timing. would hvae been good 2-3 years ago before any of the 9000 other transition and tunneling things had been deployed [04:58:35] some yes. there can be stateful and stateless variants of both tunneling and translation [04:58:56] now, I'm not confident that there would be enough time to build/deploy widely enough to take advantage [04:59:36] what's the good idea? [04:59:59] slide 7 is confusing me too. [05:00:14] trombone route hell [05:00:32] @dave - the PET framework concept of both translation and tunneling in the same protocol suite [05:01:28] sureshk joins the room [05:01:28] YuzoTateno joins the room [05:01:35] this reminds me of boucadair-dslite-interconnectivity-v4v6. translation and tunneling all in one. [05:02:49] pet framework being discussed [05:03:10] the draft is confusing me too. [05:03:28] is there some operational consideration here? just wondering why this is in v6ops and not in softwires/behave [05:03:38] me too. [05:04:28] it's draft-cui-softwire-... [05:04:55] maybe it's in V6OPS because it isn't actually a framework yet... it's an architecture to which one might design a framework. the question is: does the V6OPS community like the architecture; if so, then take it to BEHAVE and flesh it out? [05:05:02] danwing joins the room [05:05:09] BEHAVE/SOFTWARE. [05:05:14] SOFTWIRE. oops. [05:06:05] Ah. Skipping ahead to slide 13, "Future Work," it starts to make sense to me. [05:06:29] jhw, you spoiled the suspense [05:07:42] pet signaling [05:08:08] this is someone's "pet" project... [05:08:20] Atarashi Yoshifumi joins the room [05:08:32] Vincent Levigneron joins the room [05:09:05] now, i think i understand what @wesgeorge was saying earlier. [05:09:54] in the PET framework you have Client Address Translation (CAT), DNS over GRE (DOG), etc... [05:10:16] fujisaki leaves the room [05:10:36] fujisaki joins the room [05:10:49] danwing leaves the room: Replaced by new connection [05:10:50] danwing joins the room [05:11:17] acts_as_hacker leaves the room [05:11:41] jhw laughs up his sleeve. [05:12:59] roque@hiroshima leaves the room [05:13:26] abaire joins the room [05:13:45] and don't forget the Border IP Router Discovery (BIRD) [05:14:02] Is it just me, or is this kind of complicated? [05:14:14] not just you. [05:14:18] +1 [05:14:22] +1 [05:14:29] many single points of failure [05:14:49] i think it's safe to say that there's a reason why no one has tried to integrate tunneling and translation before [05:15:05] @lee.howard, well that's nothing new in this game. [05:15:06] while it would have been easier conceptually, it's hard to implement [05:15:43] i'm not sure how the extension to MP-BGP could work, but i'm not a BGP expert. [05:16:55] @cui is done [05:17:31] Bumping Roque Gagliano up from Thursday to today. [05:17:33] Ah. Section 6.1 of the draft is nice. "DNS consideration." [05:18:06] Surprise! Time to do a presentation! [05:18:07] Wow. You mean we capped the mic to save time, and now we're ahead of schedule. Woot! [05:18:18] ahead of schedule [05:18:20] this is weird [05:18:22] Yeah, I wouldn't mind revisiting Mark's draft a bit. [05:18:23] unexcected [05:18:30] @mellon +! [05:18:32] +1 [05:18:44] likely we'll still have time for that [05:18:54] +1 [05:19:03] we are now talking about thur item [05:19:04] s [05:19:08] draft-ietf-v6ops-v6inixp-03.txt is ip [05:19:09] up [05:19:10] jhw is bummed to be in california now. [05:19:18] @gagliano is up [05:19:28] @jhw we are bummed u are not here (this is brzozowski) [05:19:37] sureshk leaves the room [05:20:06] i expect no troubles arranging travel to IETF 77 and beyond. [05:20:24] good [05:20:26] cool [05:20:28] Oh, that's James! Hi! Yeah, sucks that you aren't here. [05:20:56] revision history [05:21:01] is being reviewed [05:22:19] oh, so it's jhw's fault we're ahead of schedule [05:23:07] jhw isn't allowed to point fingers at people who aren't here to defend themselves. [05:23:26] heh [05:24:12] abaire leaves the room [05:24:14] anthony.baire joins the room [05:24:46] sureshk joins the room [05:25:22] eascenco leaves the room [05:26:30] @ronbonica re arp sponge [05:26:32] how does it work [05:26:32] ? [05:26:34] is the q [05:26:43] anyone understand this? this started by saying IPv6 deployment and now it's talking about ARP [05:26:59] IPv6 deployment in IXPs. [05:27:14] ARP sponges are widely used in IXPs to "soak up" extra ARP traffic [05:27:27] So this is "how do we do this in IPv6?" [05:27:32] (As I understand it.) [05:27:40] thanks [05:28:41] moved from arp sponge to icmp nd sponge for ipv6 [05:28:42] ;) [05:29:18] jacniq leaves the room [05:30:44] @ron is back at the mic with a q [05:32:15] The last paragraph of section 4.1 doesn't sound quite right, does it? [05:32:54] Shouldn't the limit on ICMP6 multicast traffic be a bit more circumspect than that? [05:33:00] hirocomb leaves the room: Replaced by new connection [05:33:31] hirocomb joins the room [05:34:31] donley.chris leaves the room [05:35:12] donley.chris joins the room [05:36:01] James, I like the idea of you plagiarizing some of Mark's draft and putting it into simple security - that would address some of my objections to the draft. [05:36:32] Wes George is chuckling at the "no smorking in bed" that rob evans put as his picture on the RFID system [05:36:37] shinmiyakawa joins the room [05:37:54] I think there might be a tussle over the exact language to insert into the cpe-simple-security draft, but I'm open to working on it. [05:38:38] Also agree with your concern about DNSSEC. With DNSSEC, that method sounds useful; without, kind of questionable. [05:38:47] thanks, Wes [05:38:56] Wes George nod [05:39:03] TPLUNKE leaves the room [05:39:03] For example, is ParanoidOpenness on or off by DEFAULT? When it's in play, how much rate limiting is correct? What is the recommended DEFAULT rate limit? Etc etc etc [05:39:05] lebobits joins the room [05:39:13] oh geez, do we have to? [05:39:17] Yeah, that's a can of worms. [05:39:25] james do you have ? you want asked at the mic? [05:39:43] Not anymore. I may think of something yet. [05:40:00] oh gee, do we have to do this? [05:40:10] do what? [05:40:11] you're allowed to leave [05:40:37] but then I'd miss all the fun [05:40:47] well then why are you complaining? :') [05:40:56] my other WGs have been really harmonious so far [05:41:05] I'm a bit hungry for a good duke-out session [05:41:08] condolences. [05:41:31] @townsley is back [05:41:57] Ole Troan leaves the room [05:42:03] chirp chirp [05:42:05] TPLUNKE joins the room [05:42:10] one brave soul [05:42:13] Ole Troan joins the room [05:42:19] John, please carry my previous comments to the mic. [05:42:26] ted from nominum [05:42:41] which, may sell subscription security services [05:42:43] Eason leaves the room [05:42:59] ...the comments about grabbing ParanoidOpenness for cpe-simple-security. [05:43:02] services / update services [05:44:24] jason, you covering this, or do you want me to serve as mouthpice? [05:44:56] lee howard, time warner, [05:44:59] at mic [05:45:57] Ole Troan leaves the room [05:46:50] @erikkline from goog at the mic [05:46:55] also supports the work [05:47:05] also has a service he'd like to sell [05:47:13] (in case it wasn't obvious) [05:47:19] that was a pretty funny statement [05:47:21] Ole Troan joins the room [05:47:46] sureshk leaves the room [05:48:03] ahh, the cisco guy sells the MARS security architecture [05:48:10] lots of selling today [05:48:40] every on is hawking their wares [05:49:04] s/every on/everyone// [05:49:10] aalain joins the room [05:49:13] was that right, james? [05:49:22] that's one thing. yes. [05:49:52] the other thing i want you to do is put the ideas into people's heads to think about what the DEFAULT settings should be that we recommend for everyone. [05:50:18] ack james - will ask if there's time [05:50:39] yes since most people won't change the default (or even know that's possible) [05:51:20] rhe leaves the room [05:51:24] I think if you have default off, you need some way to carve a hole from the inside. [05:51:31] Bruno STEVANT leaves the room [05:51:32] jinmei leaves the room [05:51:32] ParanoidOpenness is absolutely NOT going to be something we can expect IPv4/NAT home gateways to do. [05:51:37] that is, you can't expect the end user to figure out that they have to do that. [05:51:40] What is Fred talking about? [05:51:55] becarpenter leaves the room [05:52:16] becarpenter joins the room [05:53:10] becarpenter leaves the room [05:53:14] norisuke_hirai joins the room [05:53:18] becarpenter joins the room [05:53:31] @mellon, well so okay, i could extending my ALD proposal to do that. [05:53:53] Bruno STEVANT joins the room [05:53:58] ALD? [05:54:06] I-D.woodyatt-ald. [05:54:13] expired. [05:54:28] ah [05:54:32] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-woodyatt-ald [05:54:45] james do these comments cover your defaults concern? [05:55:06] Yes, but I'm okay with dealing with this topic on the list. [05:55:12] ok [05:55:26] mark'll get pissy if I get up again I think - he really wants to get some hums [05:55:29] ;-) [05:55:38] shamus leaves the room [05:55:40] jhw is totally cool with that. [05:55:51] 4 minutes left. [05:55:57] is there someone from TISPAN participating to IETF (or is it very different community ?) [05:56:22] lix joins the room [05:56:29] because I think TISPAN have done some work one security and Home Gateways [05:56:34] roque@hiroshima joins the room [05:57:05] oh, I like this, piggybacking on RA. [05:57:22] I was (naturally) considering using DHCPv6... :') [05:57:28] jhw is humming for good idea. [05:57:31] Why did you drop this document? [05:57:57] i may yet pick it back up now. [05:57:59] arifumi leaves the room [05:58:09] Hum-bad idea on 1 [05:58:27] jhw is waffling. [05:58:34] Ole Troan leaves the room [05:58:43] becarpenter leaves the room [05:58:44] norisuke_hirai leaves the room [05:58:44] tetsuya.innami leaves the room [05:58:45] donley.chris leaves the room [05:58:46] lix leaves the room [05:58:52] Shane Amante leaves the room [05:59:01] Atarashi Yoshifumi leaves the room [05:59:04] toshio.hiraga leaves the room [05:59:07] marc.blanchet.qc leaves the room [05:59:17] kawashimam leaves the room [05:59:23] roque@hiroshima leaves the room [05:59:26] Barbara leaves the room [05:59:33] Tadamichi Matsuyama leaves the room [05:59:38] s-takuo leaves the room [05:59:41] hirocomb leaves the room [05:59:43] Ruri Hiromi leaves the room [05:59:56] danwing leaves the room [06:00:05] Bruno STEVANT leaves the room [06:00:16] Colman Ho leaves the room [06:00:18] lebobits leaves the room [06:00:18] lebobits joins the room [06:00:30] Lee Howard leaves the room [06:00:42] all done [06:00:49] jjmbcom@gmail.com leaves the room [06:00:50] jhw is leaving soon. 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