IETF
uta
uta@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, November 12, 2021< ^ >
Meetecho has set the subject to: Virtual UTA "at" IETF 111
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[15:45:09] alexamirante has set the subject to: Virtual UTA "at" IETF 112
[15:45:34] Yoshiro Yoneya has set the subject to: Virtual UTA "at" IETF 112
[15:47:37] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_112> Hey Valery, Hi all
[15:47:47] <Valery Smyslov_web_263> Hi all
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[15:49:53] <Valery Smyslov_web_263> Meeting materials: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/112/session/uta
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[15:55:26] <francesca> hello!
[15:55:32] <stpeter> ciao!
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[15:55:56] <francesca> how do we all feel for the last session of the week? :)
[15:55:59] <Valery Smyslov_web_263> Hi Francesca!
[15:56:14] <Deb Cooley_web_455> honestly?  ready to be finished.
[15:56:17] <Valery Smyslov_web_263> A bit tired...
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[15:56:26] <sftcd> feel: sad we weren't in Madrid
[15:56:37] <Valery Smyslov_web_263> Agree
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[16:01:17] <Rich Salz_web_550> it's not as harsh as when we meet in person.
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[16:02:54] <francesca> ahah funny Hannes :D
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[16:03:13] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_135> I had to try it
[16:03:34] <francesca> Thanks Rich!
[16:03:42] <stpeter> https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-112-uta?both
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[16:10:27] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> It seems hard to claim that PSS certs are BCP if they aren't current
practice...
[16:11:46] <Rich Salz_web_550> wow, that review is impressive.
[16:11:58] <sftcd> just occurs to me it might make sense to have a sentence something like: "Ongoing development of TLS continues so implementers ought not assume that they can depend on specific content of TLS messages. For example, experiments like ECH means that the ClientHello visible before being processed by a TLS library may not correspond to the actual TLS session details." Reason is I have seen application layer code that peeks into the ClientHello in web servers that I had to modify when integrating with my ECH-supporting OpenSSL fork.
[16:12:08] <sftcd> I can send a mail to the list or raise a GH issue if that'd make sense
[16:12:39] <Rich Salz_web_550> yes that makes sense.  ALPS probably adds to the layering issues.
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[16:13:26] <sftcd> apologies for creating work for Yaron/StPeter with that last one;-)
[16:13:27] <Valery Smyslov_web_263> @sftcd: please, do it
[16:13:49] <sftcd> preference for mail or GH issue?
[16:13:55] <Valery Smyslov_web_263> I mean send a mail
[16:14:02] <sftcd> will do
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[16:14:31] <Rich Salz_web_550> I dunno.  As penance for causing all that work, mabye you should use GitHub :)
[16:14:51] <sftcd> that'd be true penance
[16:16:32] <sftcd> mail sent so no penance suffered:-)
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[16:19:39] sftcd likes the graphc:-)
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[16:28:43] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> > I don't even remember how Jeff and I came up with such a long title
Maybe there was a bet involved ;)
[16:28:50] <Jonathan Lennox_web_864> Suspect "PKIX" and "TLS" got expanded by the RFC Editor's process.
[16:29:15] <sftcd> I'd bet more likely there was a lot of email and not a bet invlolved
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[16:35:13] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> There is at least in theory the option of "Updates:"-ing all the other
IETF documents that say to use CCM_8...though that is probably not a
pleasant document to write
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[16:36:07] <Tero Kivinen_web_596> How about giving bandwidth limit with CCM_8. For example IEEE 802.15.4 with 100kbit/s speeds I think the CCM_8 forgery will take quite a long time...
[16:36:17] <Rikard Höglund_web_959> Draft related to OSCORE can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hoeglund-core-oscore-key-limits/
[16:36:31] <John Preuß Mattsson_web_692> As I presented in SAAG a couple of meeting ago. I think the integrity advantage per key is not a relevant measure for a security protocol using a lot of keys.
[16:36:31] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> It's not always easy to rate-limit what you process as incoming
traffic
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[16:36:35] <sftcd> yeah rfc8996 was a PITA because of all the updates
[16:36:50] <John Preuß Mattsson_web_692> I think the security consideration here is the tag length 64 bits
[16:37:36] <Tero Kivinen_web_596> It is easy if your max bandwidth on radio link is what it is... This is supposed to be used in the IoT, which are constrained devices thus radio speed are slow.
[16:37:47] <Ira McDonald_web_132> The CFRG draft https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-irtf-cfrg-aead-limits-03.txt
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[16:40:09] <Tero Kivinen_web_596> For example in 802.15.4 the max frame number (i.e., maximum number of packets transmitted using one key) is 2^32, and transmitting the 2^32 packets will take over a year, thus rekeying every half a year should be enough...
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[16:44:21] <Erik Nygren_web_307> Doesn't TLS 1.3 AES-GCM get the nonce from the sequence number to make it deterministic?  While the full 64 bits in memory, could cTLS use a more compressed version of the seqno on the wire?  (if it doesn't already)
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[16:46:40] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Non-D TLS doesn't even send the sequence number on the wire.
[16:47:07] <Christian Amsüss_web_540> +1 on "WiFi makes something not IoT any more"
[16:47:29] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> DTLS 1.3 already has a compressed header that shortens the sequence
number
[16:48:17] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_450> @Erik, yes, the sequence number is not all sent in DTLS or cTLS
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[16:53:02] <John Preuß Mattsson_web_692> All the calculations in the CFRG draft are correct, but I think the idea to calculate is the advantage for a single key is not useful for the practical security. The CFRG states that very frequent rekeying improves security. I don't think that is true. The forgery probability per attemt is 2^-64 before and after rekeying. The forgery probability per packet only starts to increase at something like 2^35 forgery attampts. CCM_8 behaves very close to an ideal MAC. The important security factor for integrity is the 64 bit tag, which I think is acceptable for most IoT. An average forgery reguires 4.3 billion forgery attemps per second for 68 years.
[16:53:28] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I don't think I'm awake enough to work through the (default) RTO case.
But doesn't the ACK mechanism mean that you only actually hit the RTO
timer when "the entire flight" is lost (in one direction or the
other)?  So it would be much more exceptional to actually hit an RTO
event...
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[16:55:22] <Tim Hollebeek_web_183> When I architected a similar system many years ago, we intentionally dropped connections once a day to reauthenticate / rekey.  The performance difference between forever connections and daily connections is pretty neglible.
[16:55:34] <stpeter> We have some text in RFC 6120 about long-lived connections: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6120#section-13.7.2.3 (not sure if that's useful)
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[16:57:32] <John Preuß Mattsson_web_692> Some discussions relevant for the of (D)TLS with long connections. You might want to make some security considerations.
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/saag/6ImeENhteXGdLsnaJHRoN6LW1zk/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-dtls-over-sctp-bis/
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[16:59:33] <Rich Salz_web_550> gotta go.  see y'all next time!
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[17:01:02] <francesca> Thank you Peter for minute taking! Thanks chairs!
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[17:01:10] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_135> Thanks a lot
[17:01:12] <David Oliver_web_863> thanks all
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[17:01:18] <Yaron Sheffer_web_584> Thank you!
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[17:01:22] <Robin Wilton_web_631> Thanks everyone - see you at 113!
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[17:01:36] <Valery Smyslov_web_263> Thanks all
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