IETF
uta
uta@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, July 28, 2021< ^ >
Jim Fenton has set the subject to: Virtual UTA "at" IETF 107
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[21:28:43] <stpeter> Hey nice, I have _443 at the end of my Meetecho username so it must be secure. ;-)
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[21:29:25] <Valery Smyslov_web_750> :-)
[21:29:27] <Alessandro Amirante_web_675> :lock:
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[21:30:57] <stpeter> Ah, it seems things like _web_443 are obscured in the Meetecho interface, so they only show up in "native" Jabber.
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[21:31:16] <francesca> hi all! :)
[21:31:26] <stpeter> ciao!
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[21:32:19] <francesca> Thank you Alexey and Hannes!
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[21:32:31] <Joseph Kalfa_web_310> audio to the audio only option is not streaming yet
[21:32:32] <stpeter> I don't hear any audio via Meetecho, rejoining.
[21:32:37] <francesca> and thanks Rich
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[21:33:00] <Rich Salz_web_796> I'm jabber scribe.  If you want me to relay anything via the video meeting, preface your text with "MIC:" or ping me.
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[21:38:53] <Joseph Kalfa_web_310> !! woah...audio only is working now
[21:39:17] <Roman Danyliw_web_580> To be clear, I we saying drop text about CNs or explicitly say don't use CNs
[21:39:28] <Roman Danyliw_web_580> To be clear, are we ...
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[21:41:20] <Alexey Melnikov_web_848> Roman: do you want to ask Rich directly?
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[21:42:01] <Watson Ladd_web_983> how about "X.509 Server Identification in Transport Layer Security"
[21:42:06] <Carrick_web_356> Just "Use the SAN"
[21:42:29] <stpeter> The shortname of 6125 was "Service Identity" and we could use that.
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[21:43:02] <Roman Danyliw_web_580> PKIX is also in the abbreviation list (like TLS). We could drop it from the title too
[21:43:16] <Viktor Dukhovni_web_854> Go ahead
[21:43:17] <Sean Turner_web_432> @roman nice!
[21:43:21] <Sean Turner_web_432> let's do a poll! :)
[21:43:44] <Sean Turner_web_432> ah make those who object speak now :)
[21:44:06] <Viktor Dukhovni_web_854> Standard
[21:44:53] <Viktor Dukhovni_web_854> Drop pinning.
[21:45:28] <stpeter> Viktor Dukhovni_web_854: do you mean request advancement from Proposed Standard to Standard?
[21:45:28] <Carrick_web_356> Sean: no objection
[21:46:03] <Carrick_web_356> +1 Watson
[21:46:21] <sftcd> -1 watson: pinning helps avoid corporate mitm
[21:46:34] <sftcd> whether text here is good/bad is another question
[21:46:43] <Watson Ladd_web_983> Not trusting evil CAs avoids corporate MITM
[21:47:01] <sftcd> applications don't get that choice
[21:47:36] <Yaron Sheffer_web_827> sftcd: the "real" pinning specs had exceptions especially for enterprise MITM.
[21:47:47] <sftcd> yeah, pity that
[21:47:56] <Watson Ladd_web_983> applications should do what computer's admins tell them to. but this is a whole different issue
[21:48:16] <Jonathan Lennox_web_834> If there are "real" pinning specs, then presumably there shouldn't be a "fake" pinning spec here?
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[21:48:53] <Yaron Sheffer_web_827> "Real" pinning specs(including my own) never had traction.
[21:49:10] <sftcd> I don't think what Yaron referred to is really the "real pinning" that is really done in apps in app stores
[21:49:28] <Sean Turner_web_432> guarantee the IESG will debate that point for us ;)
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[21:52:15] <sftcd> is there much real usage of chacha in tls1.2?
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[21:52:38] <Watson Ladd_web_983> old Android
[21:52:50] <Rich Salz_web_796> cloudflare saw a BIG jump when they implemented it, but now everyone does 1.3
[21:53:48] <David Benjamin_web_431> But everyone doing 1.3 now comes from the clients upgrading. If your server is still at 1.2, you still want 1.2 chacha for those clients.
[21:54:11] <Watson Ladd_web_983> i can probably ask someone for numbers we see.
[21:54:15] <Thomas Fossati_web_298> also new Arm phones have better support for AES, so a sizeable chunk of Android has moved to AES
[21:54:52] <David Benjamin_web_431> Yeah, at this point most of our client base without AES hardware is old Windows rather than old Android.
[21:55:29] <Alexey Melnikov_web_848> Bigger RSA and DHE seem sensible
[21:56:04] <David Benjamin_web_431> But it's still the case that ChaCha is the right answer when one of client or server lacks AES hardware.
[21:56:12] <sftcd> increasing RSA size is certainly easier but question is whether it's worthwhile if there were a real quantum attack
[21:56:25] <Carrick_web_356> But the TLSWG might adopt a draft that deprecates DHE and RSA KX?
[21:56:30] <Deb Cooley_web_737> to be clear my draft does not address PQ.
[21:56:52] <sftcd> but anyway if there's discussion about each such change on the list that'll all work out fine
[21:57:01] <Deb Cooley_web_737> I thought large DHE w/known groups was still ok?
[21:57:09] <Carrick_web_356> Oh sorry yes
[21:57:18] <Deb Cooley_web_737> ok, ty
[21:57:21] <Watson Ladd_web_983> the problem is performance and how good is the GNFS really
[21:57:24] <Yaron Sheffer_web_827> @Carrick: we are closely following the TLS deprecation discussions.
[21:57:31] <Carrick_web_356> @Yaron great
[21:57:38] <Watson Ladd_web_983> want to understand why draft is saying use 3072 and 384
[21:57:58] <Watson Ladd_web_983> and if we're going to p384, would want X448
[21:59:07] <sftcd> MIC: has anyone looked at the docs referencing this BCP to check if there's anything we may break by accident? (sorry, can't send audio right now)
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[21:59:49] <Yaron Sheffer_web_827> @sftcd: there's a *huge* number of documents doing that, outside of IETF.
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[21:59:51] <Sean Turner_web_432> I tend to agree with PSA's thinking
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[22:00:35] <Carrick_web_356> +1 Rich
[22:00:47] <sftcd> @Yaron: yeah that's why I was wondering if anyone had taken a look
[22:00:59] <Yaron Sheffer_web_827> Nope.
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[22:01:43] <Rich Salz_web_796> hand back up btw
[22:02:57] <sftcd> @Rich: you're jabber scribe? did you see "MIC:" comment above?
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[22:03:29] <Rich Salz_web_796> oops, sorry, thanks.  and thanks Alexsey!
[22:03:46] <Rich Salz_web_796> And oh damn, Alexey no s
[22:04:19] <sftcd> no just generic worrying:-)
[22:04:23] <stpeter> heh ok
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[22:05:32] <sftcd> I kind of agree with Viktor
[22:05:36] <Watson Ladd_web_983> unfortunately a lot of CAs use p384 for signatures.
[22:06:41] <stpeter> What Viktor says makes some sense. We might want to point in the direction of larger key sizes for instance (and informatively reference the CNSA document), but not make that a SHOULD.
[22:06:54] <Roman Danyliw_web_580> Not raising the floor something because it's not PQ resistant doesn't motivate me.  We don't have enough fidelity into the PQ solution yet and we can't just freeze our evolution of improving classic recommendations
[22:07:31] <Roman Danyliw_web_580> Performance, etc is more compelling
[22:07:57] <Carrick_web_356> +1 Roman
[22:07:58] <Alexey Melnikov_web_848> Roman: _1
[22:07:59] <sftcd> @yaron: that's fair, I guess since we encouraged other IETF docs to refer to BCP195 and not RFC7525 we do owe 'em a bit of due diligence in cases where the bis RFC isn't the same as 7525  
[22:08:00] <Alexey Melnikov_web_848> +1
[22:08:25] <stpeter> sftcd: agreed
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[22:09:14] <stpeter> we kind of kept the WG open to work on 7525bis IIRC
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[22:09:54] <Sean Turner_web_432> @stpeter agreed I was thinking post 7525bis publication
[22:10:11] <stpeter> yes, exactly
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[22:15:36] <francesca> Thanks for the comments, I will talk with the SEC ADs and come back (once the time is right)
[22:15:38] <Alexey Melnikov_web_848> UTA's audience is a bit different
[22:15:39] <Watson Ladd_web_983> sorry, forgot that that isn't automatic
[22:16:53] <Sean Turner_web_432> definitely don't close it before 7525bis is published ;)
[22:16:58] <Watson Ladd_web_983> imho disconnecting design from applications invites problems.
[22:17:01] <francesca> ahah :D
[22:17:09] <Watson Ladd_web_983> +1 Sean
[22:17:14] <Sean Turner_web_432> I guess my point is somewhat like Roman's if there's recommendations coming great keep it open. If not ...
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[22:17:47] <francesca> Thanks Valery!
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[22:17:51] <stpeter> I suspect we can close the UTA WG once we publish 6125bis and 7525bis
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[22:17:52] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_190> Thanks!
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[22:17:58] <Sean Turner_web_432> thanks everybody!
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