Friday, July 30, 2021< ^ >
mcr has set the subject to: SUIT at IETF 108
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[18:48:43] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> Hi all
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[18:55:29] <Tsukasa OI_web_380> Hi!
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[18:56:07] <Henk Birkholz_web_914> Hello everybody!
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[18:57:35] <Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay_web_973> hello
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[18:58:43] <Henk Birkholz_web_914> You seem to be quite tornado resilient, Jess
[18:58:57] <Henk Birkholz_web_914> Happy to see that!
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[18:59:33] <Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay_web_973> lol, yeah, we were perfectly fine. The tornado didn't even touch down.
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[18:59:51] <Christian Amsüss_web_466> i can participate in note taking
[19:00:07] <Christian Amsüss_web_466> (but my network connection is still a bit flaky, so it'd be good to be in a pair when i flake out)
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[19:05:46] <Roman Danyliw_web_634> I see the slides now
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[19:08:16] <Ira McDonald_web_938> slides are NOT advancing
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[19:08:40] <Kohei Isobe_web_185> freezed slide?
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[19:09:06] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> +1
[19:09:19] <David Waltermire_web_792> Sorry. My internet connection  has been very unstable.
[19:09:35] <Tero Kivinen_web_438> He is advancing in the slideshow, but that is not shared window...
[19:09:46] <Tero Kivinen_web_438> so the actual window which is shared do not get updated.
[19:09:52] <Alessandro Toppi_web_653> He's probably sharing the editor window
[19:09:57] <Henk Birkholz_web_914> And skipping audio codes quality
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[19:10:03] <mcr> @Tero, exactly.  This is like screen sharing 101.
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[19:11:07] <Tero Kivinen_web_438> I really like the PDF sharing feature built in to the meetecho, as it does not has those issues...
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[19:12:02] <mcr> also doesn't waste 40% of the screen.
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[19:25:39] <Ira McDonald_web_938> extension, please
[19:25:47] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> Extension seems sensible
[19:26:06] <David Waltermire_web_571> +1
[19:26:10] <Dave Thaler_web_915> chat feedback noted
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[19:29:17] <mcr> I don't really understand the question/issue.  I guess the point is that since the payload is part of the manifest, that why/how could it not be integral, while the manifest was okay, so do we ever really need to verify it.
[19:29:41] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> You should ask that at the mike
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[19:30:40] <mcr> On this topic (do they have github issue numbers?) since we are using self-describing CBOR, then we can mix string and integer keys.
[19:31:16] <mcr> and the error handling on when the string->integer fails, or someone decides to use hex numbers, etc..
[19:31:21] <Christian Amsüss_web_761> +1 on using strings rather than ints
[19:31:38] <Henk Birkholz_web_925> At some point fragments might be interested
[19:31:51] <Henk Birkholz_web_925> So for this round that seems fine
[19:32:00] <Henk Birkholz_web_925> Ints
[19:35:04] <mcr> @Russ, can you remind us about the size of the HSS-LMS signature size?
[19:35:35] <mcr> We have to be testing HSS-LMS today, before we need it.
[19:35:44] <David Waltermire_web_571> Should we list MTI in the base spec vs a crypto spec?
[19:36:32] <mcr> there is the code size issue for the additional signature form, and if we can have only one, then the concern is for the signature size.
[19:38:01] <Dave Thaler_web_915> @DavidW did you want to ask that at the mic?
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[19:38:52] <David Waltermire_web_571> Yes. Should we be concerned about lo ger term agility?
[19:39:12] <David Waltermire_web_571> Longer-term that is
[19:41:18] <Dave Thaler_web_915> can you get in queue then? :)
[19:42:51] <Rich Salz_web_863> yeah i left the queue
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[19:43:06] <David Waltermire_web_571> Nope
[19:43:29] <Roman Danyliw_web_634> Baking in crypto agility makes sense
[19:44:20] <mcr> I really think we should make HSS-LMS be the MTI for any device with an expected lifetime of more than about 2 years.  (Where smartphones fit into "2 years" is a marketing problem)
[19:44:21] <Ira McDonald_web_938> crypto agility w/out h/w acceleration is an impractical dream
[19:44:33] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> So how do you go about finding out the answer about whether people implement?
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[19:47:37] <Roman Danyliw_web_634> @Brendan: Totally agree.  We need implementers to help us understand the engineering envelope
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[19:48:54] <Roman Danyliw_web_634> @mcr: the NIST CCOE might entertain such an evaluation project
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[19:50:16] <mcr> no. we'll never be able to change.  The assymetric algorithms will wind up as SHOULDs anyway.
[19:50:49] <Christian Amsüss_web_761> note takers didn't get MUST and SHOULD part
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[19:52:04] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> mcr has a point
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[19:52:34] <David Waltermire_web_571> We should work this.out.on the list.
[19:52:36] <Ira McDonald_web_938> how do we migrate? retire one and shift to the other?
[19:52:41] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> Try Hackathon with HSS-LMS and see how much push back you get?
[19:52:48] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> +1
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[19:53:17] <David Waltermire_web_571> I like having a separate crypto draft to address this.
[19:53:41] <mcr> @Ira, if we have HSS-LMS as MUST, then we likely never need to shift. That's where the win is.   If we start it anywhere else, then the shift is very hard, and if we ever need to do it, it's too late.  This is very much like a Climate Change or Y2K kind of decision.  
[19:54:03] <Tadahiko Ito_web_187> I am interested in operation of stateful hash algorithim.
[19:54:43] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> I don't know because I don't have the performance data yet
[19:55:20] <Ira McDonald_web_938> 13 out of 53 is 20 percent
[19:55:31] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> You still need to check this on the mailing list
[19:55:36] <mcr> Based upon what claim by Brendan and Russ, HSS may be faster for verify-and-then-boot systems.
[19:55:45] <Roman Danyliw_web_634> ^^ What Alexey said
[19:56:12] <David Waltermire_web_571> I would prefer to ask Dave's question about additional arguments on the liat.
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[19:56:48] <Dave Thaler_web_915> yes, just want to get proposed consensus here and confirm on the list
[19:56:49] <David Waltermire_web_571> list. There are none, we go with the consensus here.
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[19:57:13] <David Waltermire_web_571> Ok
[19:57:16] <mcr> yes, of course: we need to discuss it on the list. I doubt we'll get very many different/vocal answers.  To answer this, we need to do more running code.
[19:58:14] <Ira McDonald_web_938> LMS got a bunch of fresh implementors due to NIST PQC competition - and some very good analysis work
[19:58:26] <mcr> LOL.
[19:58:36] <Dave Thaler_web_915> it would be ideal for IETF 113...
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[19:59:30] <mcr> Brendan, you'll never a big advance on the "Secrets of SUIT" if you make the spec understandable!! ;-)
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[20:00:09] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> @Brendan: That's not how we do it. We make specs difficult to read so that we can sell consulting gigs and book deals
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[20:01:07] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> (That was supposed to be understood as a joke btw...)
[20:01:08] <Christian Amsüss_web_761> HT you may want to go to IEC ;-)
[20:01:11] <mcr> I suggest that we start by moving non-core commands to a later section (or a normative appendix), and then we could consider if that worked.
[20:01:48] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> I think that this re-structuring is a good idea
[20:01:52] <mcr> @Roman, shorter documents also get through the IESG faster?
[20:01:54] <Ira McDonald_web_938> MCR - I think instead we should prune the core draft as Brendan has suggested
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[20:02:27] <mcr> @Ira, I'm really just suggesting a way to get to that point.
[20:03:13] <Michael Jenkins_web_199> megacluster!
[20:03:15] <mcr> Could we declare this spec as an Implementation Draft?
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[20:03:36] <mcr> @Michael, in theory, it won't have to get processed as a cluster, because the references will be only unidirectional.
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[20:03:57] <Michael Jenkins_web_199> @mcr - thanks for the clarification. That helps.
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[20:05:32] <Ira McDonald_web_938> In the core spec, briefly enumerate/describe *all* of the known use cases that are addressed in companion specs
[20:05:42] <Roman Danyliw_web_634> @mcr, shorter = faster, maybe.  It depends.  If the topic is spread across multiple docs it's sometimes easier for it all to be in one place.  There is a spin-up cost for each doc
[20:05:48] <mcr> @Ira: +1. mostly what I am going to say.
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[20:10:29] <Dave Thaler_web_915> yeah shorter time for the base spec, longer time for the pieces split off since the spin up cost and intro text
[20:12:10] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> +1 mcr
[20:15:03] <David Waltermire_web_179> We should address the specifi  docs in the charter update.
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[20:15:51] <mcr> @David, about that NCCoE suggestion about a NIST workshop on managing HSS-LSM "PKI"...
[20:17:39] <Russ Housley_web_288> @DaveW: Yes, that will be a new portion in the charter
[20:18:15] <David Waltermire_web_179> @mcr I can make that suggestion to the responsible people at NIST.
[20:18:59] <Russ Housley_web_288> @MCR: HSS/LMS and XMSS are the two hash-based signature algorithms that have been approved by NIST.  Both are stateful.
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[20:25:52] <Ira McDonald_web_938> best-in-class automotive s/w update tools do *unique* signatures on firmware for each target vehicle, not just for one source OEM repository
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[20:28:04] <mcr> @Ira, so not just encrypted to each vehicle separately, but signed with a per-vehicle signing key?   does that mean that each vehicle gets their own custom blob?
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[20:31:59] <Tadahiko Ito_web_187> if it were unique, it seems we might end up many signatures for manifest. it seems we need care on state management of HSS/LMS.
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[20:33:54] <Ira McDonald_web_938> The signature key can be a hash of a back-office key and a vehicle's ECU-specific identity key.  Other mixing techniques are used.  OEMs do this partly to defeat hackers illegitimately turning on value-add features without paying for them.
[20:33:55] <Christian Amsüss_web_881> hannes, my connection is just super flaky, can you take over minutes?
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[20:34:25] <Christian Amsüss_web_881> (just came online after having missed a few minutes, not sure if holding, lots of ESD in the air here right now)
[20:36:58] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> Can someone help me with the minutes?
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[20:39:19] <mcr> logged in, I'll help as I can.
[20:39:23] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> Thanks
[20:39:32] <mcr> I thikn that this attack needs a diagram :-)
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[20:41:23] <Dave Thaler_web_915> :)
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[20:42:36] <mcr> Do those that care about encryption of firmware, have any concerns that a PQ event would allow all historical firmware contents to be revealed?
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[20:46:09] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> Never heard about that concern. We should ask around
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[20:50:17] <mcr> @Hannes, I have to pay attention to APN open mic now.
[20:50:49] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> Ack. No problem
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[20:53:03] <Roman Danyliw_web_634> @brendan: sounds like at least a format
[20:53:16] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> Format sounds fine.
[20:53:40] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> There doesn't seem to be an interaction (i.e. no protocol)
[20:53:56] <Brendan Moran_web_908> Rollercoaster!
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[20:56:43] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> Is Roman the responsible AD for both SUIT and RATS ;-)?
[20:56:53] <Roman Danyliw_web_634> I am, that's why I'm not so concerned
[20:56:58] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_650> ;-)
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[20:58:20] <Alexey Melnikov_web_648> ADs have some leeway in interpreting charters.
[20:59:57] <Roman Danyliw_web_634> +1 on vaguer extensions
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[21:01:52] <Roman Danyliw_web_634> Thanks DaveT, Russ and DavidW for leading the discussion
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