IETF
spud@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, March 25, 2015< ^ >
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[13:57:28] <Matthew Ford> oh great, one of the authors of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-jabber-scribe-00 is in the room when I'm on the hook to jabber scribe ;)
[13:57:37] <Matthew Ford> no pressure then
[13:57:38] <Dan York 2> Hahaha
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[13:57:56] <Dan York 2> Thanks for being there! :-)
[13:58:11] <Dan York 2> I promise not to rate you according to what we wrote!
[13:58:14] <Tony Hansen> etherpad scribing will be at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-92-spud?useMonospaceFont=true&showChat=false
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[14:00:32] <Matthew Ford> Agenda: https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/92/agenda-92-spud.html
[14:00:48] <Matthew Ford> kicking off with: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-spud-0.pdf
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[14:03:10] <Dan York 2> Meetecho - FYI, I'm not seeing any video remotely
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[14:04:10] <Meetecho> let me check, just a sec
[14:05:52] <John Leslie> thx for the video
[14:06:08] <Aaron Falk> Spüüüüüüüüüüd
[14:06:09] <Aaron Falk> Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.
[14:06:16] <Szilveszter Nadas> :)
[14:06:18] <Meetecho> both slides and video should work, can you confirm?
[14:06:31] <Matthew Ford> sp0000000000d
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[14:06:39] <Dan York 2> Meetecho: Yes, slides, audio and video all work
[14:06:45] <Meetecho> cool!
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[14:07:52] <Matthew Ford> Brian Trammel is up - slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-spud-1.pdf
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[14:08:25] <Dan York 2> speaking "outside the box"
[14:08:30] wseltzer joins the room
[14:09:38] <Dan York 2> Or speaking in, say, Finnish
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[14:11:18] <Tony Hansen> etherpad scribing is at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-92-spud?useMonospaceFont=true&showChat=false
[14:14:43] <John Leslie> "series of tubes", right!
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[14:15:01] <hildjj> John: that was not accidental…
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[14:23:07] <Ted.h> It's really clear that this talk and my slides are in the wrong order.  So please buffer this talk in memory, and be ready to play it back after my talk is done.
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[14:31:31] <Tony Hansen> etherpad scribing will be at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-92-spud?useMonospaceFont=true&showChat=false
[14:31:57] <Tony Hansen> (feel free to join in and make the notes better)
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[14:37:29] <Matthew Ford> Ted Hardie presenting: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-92-spud-2.pdf
[14:37:41] <Dan York 2> Ted doesn't want us to see him
[14:37:49] <Matthew Ford> if you can't see Ted, that's because Ted is Ted
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[14:38:43] <Tony Hansen> Ted is riding the SPUD around the room
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[14:43:01] <Meetecho> I'm trying to follow him ewith the camera but can't find him :)
[14:43:06] <Meetecho> where should I look?
[14:43:33] <Barry Leiba> RIght of center
[14:43:49] <Meetecho> ok got him
[14:43:57] <Meetecho> sorry about that
[14:44:05] <Meetecho> just mention me here the next time I fail to catch the speaker
[14:44:41] <resnick> Yum. "Consuming" path elements.
[14:44:50] <Matthew Ford> eat your veggies
[14:44:58] <resnick> Or tubors.
[14:45:15] <Matthew Ford> seriously, given all the challenges we've had deploying broccoli technology, this seems like a very promising approach
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[14:53:02] <Matthew Ford> Joe Hildebrand presents: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-92-spud-4.pdf
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[14:53:55] <Szilveszter Nadas> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-spud-4.pdf
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[14:54:55] <John Leslie> video appears to be lagging (a lot)...
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[14:55:25] <mnot> So, IMAP is the "interim" mail access protocol
[14:55:32] <mnot> the best of intents…
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[14:56:44] <Ted.h> Hey by v4, it claimed to be Internet Message Access Protocol…
[14:56:47] <Dan York 2> Meetecho: Video seems to be stopped - unless Ted.h is standing REALLY still.
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[14:57:02] <Ted.h> Dan, that's Joe and he is.
[14:57:12] <dcrocker> Pointer to slides from the session's first presentation (I came in late)?  Thanks.
[14:57:23] <Meetecho> whoopsie
[14:57:26] <Meetecho> working on that
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[14:57:50] <Szilveszter Nadas> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-spud-1.pdf
[14:57:52] <Matthew Ford> @dcrocker http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-spud-2.pdf
[14:58:08] <dcrocker> tnx!
[14:58:19] <Brian Trammell> joe is up now, he's standing in the box but the camera is pointed in the direction of ted.h's previous location
[14:59:00] <Dan York 2> Ted.h: I know you and I know Joe - and unless Joe has changed to look like you, I'm 99% sure that's NOT him!
[14:59:03] <Meetecho> yes the webcam froze, we're sending someone over to recover
[14:59:07] <Brian Trammell> ah
[14:59:11] <Brian Trammell> two problems
[14:59:12] <Dan York 2> What I see:  https://www.evernote.com/shard/s1/sh/18fd3dbc-a7f2-4349-95c6-2241db90b0d8/36861c3c76fb57a3752fd64a69a3caef
[14:59:24] <Brian Trammell> yeah that's time travel
[14:59:34] <Dan York 2> Ha!  Exactly!
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[15:13:12] <Meetecho> speaker should be back
[15:13:15] <Meetecho> sorry about that
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[15:17:36] <Matthew Ford> Christian Huitema presents: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-spud-3.pdf
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[15:19:32] <Tony Hansen> etherpad scribing is at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-92-spud?useMonospaceFont=true&showChat=false
(feel free to join in and make the notes better)
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[15:27:05] <b b> slides are not visible
[15:27:22] <Aaron Falk> ok now?
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[15:31:14] <Dan York 2> Meetecho: Video frozen again... unless Christian is standing still with his hands in the air.
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[15:31:37] <Meetecho> yes already notified on of the team
[15:31:37] <Matthew Ford> @Dan meetecho guys working on the problem now
[15:31:55] <Meetecho> should be back in a minute
[15:32:04] <Dan York 2> Meetecho: (I say this for your own debugging .. I don't find the video absolutely necessary... but it is nice to have.)
[15:32:27] <Meetecho> Dan York 2: absolutely, thanks for noticing!
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[15:37:39] <Aaron Falk> where'd everyone go?
[15:37:50] <hildjj> we're just fascinated
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[15:40:33] <resnick> Doesn't getting the SYN-ACK first require the time machine thing again?
[15:41:00] <resnick> Or do all web sites start multicasting that they want requests for traffic?
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[15:44:40] <hildjj> NDN
[15:45:03] <resnick> You can make much longer timeouts on things that are willing to say they're closing.
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[15:45:21] <hildjj> resnick: and you can make those timeouts explicit
[15:45:29] <resnick> ack.
[15:45:31] <resnick> +1
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[15:48:29] <hildjj> one of the protocols we use to replace IMAP is XMPP.
[15:48:39] <hildjj> another is HTTP
[15:49:35] <kaorumaeda> ping ayokura
[15:49:38] <kaorumaeda> sorry
[15:51:34] <RjS> (If there's a channel from here to the fingers on the mixer board - some gentle touch to bring down the ringing would be very much appreciated)
[15:52:11] <Joe Hall>     don't think there's anyone at the mixer
[15:52:57] <Yoav Nir> I think an alternative to the "wait for SYN", "Wait for SYNACK", "let traffic through" state machine is something like "let up to 20KB from the initiator", "wait for something from responder", "let traffic through".
[15:53:11] <Yoav Nir> Adjust "20KB" above according to protocol and experience
[15:53:54] <hildjj> Yoav: interesting approach.  please help prototype
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[15:58:18] <Yoav Nir> I'll need to read the drafts first. Especially how do we differentiate between one service and another? For example, if something is TCP' (the example that maps OPEN and ACK to SYN and SYNACK) would need virtually no data from the initiator before we get the ACK from the responder. A video stream that is entirely 1-way might need an ACK just to satisfy the middlebox, and then we need to allow 1RTT * data rate.
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[15:59:40] <hildjj> please send that to the list so i can think about it more in-depth.
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[16:09:07] <mnot> Accepting that it's an adversarial relationship is the first step...
[16:14:08] <dcrocker> MNot, the relationship can sometimes be collaborative and sometimes adversarial.  The infrastructure has multiple concerns.  QOS-y kinds of things can be collaborative.  Abuse-y kinds of think can not be, if the infrastructure thinks you are an abuser.  However a lesson from email anti-abuse is that good actors can usefully collaborate with filtering engines, to produce some clean signal, distinguished from the noisy unknown of other messages.
[16:15:51] <Yoav Nir> When the adversary can eat all your packets it's preferable to think of this as an uneasy relationship
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[16:16:43] <mnot> uneasy - I like that
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[16:17:54] <Yoav Nir> Having not read the draft, this might be a stupid question. What ports are to be used? Is this still a different port assigned for each application, with SPUD being optional?
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[16:18:02] <hildjj> All ports
[16:18:11] <mnot> SPUD ALL THE PORTS
[16:18:26] <hildjj> that is open for debate.
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[16:20:35] <Yoav Nir> Maybe I should rephrase that. Do we expect UDP 53 to still be DNS - without SPUD for old systems and with SPUD for new systems, or do we expect DNS-with-SPUD to be assigned a new port.
[16:20:43] <Yoav Nir> (DNS here only as an example)
[16:21:22] <hildjj> don't know yet.  since the current magic number is invalid DNS, you could multiplex on a single port
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[16:24:43] <Yoav Nir> So even ignoring middleboxes for a moment, you'd need to either negotiate or pre-configure the use of SPUD on existing ports. While an in-flux protocol such as RTCWEB can add such a mechanism (or be re-formed to be SPUD-only), doing this for DNS on a single port is a hard problem.
[16:26:22] <hildjj> Yoav: good point.  it may be protocol specific.
[16:27:03] <hildjj> i could imagine an EDNS flag, that allowed you transition, for example.
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