IETF
spring
spring@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, March 25, 2022< ^ >
~~Dhruv~~Dhody~~ has set the subject to: IETF-112
Room Configuration
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[11:17:13] Meetecho has set the subject to: IETF-113
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[11:19:49] <Joel Halpern_web_161> @meetecho - Our in room delegate reports that remote audio is soft in the room.
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[11:21:08] <Meetecho> Hi Joel, can you eaborate? In room mics are soft for in room attendees? Or are remote speakers low when played in the venue?
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[11:21:42] <Joel Halpern_web_161> The in room person could barely hear the remote people when they were speaking.
[11:22:16] <Meetecho> It may just be a problem for the delegate, since the speakers are pointed to the audience, and the chair desk sits behind the speakers
[11:22:31] <Joel Halpern_web_161> He walked into the room and listened, and said it was still soft.
[11:22:48] <Joel Halpern_web_161> But not as bad as at the table behind the speakers.
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[11:25:55] <Tom Hill_web_756> It is definitely difficult to hear Joel even when at the mic in front of the large speakers.
[11:25:59] <Tom Hill_web_756> We could do with a level check
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[11:26:27] <Meetecho> We'll raise the output volume of the laptop
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[11:26:35] <Meetecho> Better now?
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[11:27:21] <Meetecho> We're sending someone there
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[11:27:43] <Joel Halpern_web_161> Thanks for sending someone.
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[11:29:30] <Meetecho> Can a remote speaker make a test?
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[11:30:02] <Joel Halpern_web_161> Thank you.
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[11:30:41] <Meetecho> Was the audio better?
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[11:30:47] <Joel Halpern_web_161> Yes.
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[11:30:49] <Meetecho> Did you get any echo?
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[11:30:56] <Bruno Decraene_web_812> Thanks.
[11:30:58] <Jorge Amodio_web_501> Good audio
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[11:31:03] <Bruno Decraene_web_812> No echo
[11:31:03] <Meetecho> Ack, thanks!
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[11:31:28] <Tom Hill_web_756> Noice
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[11:32:26] <Éric Vyncke_web_463> Shame that SPRING was not on 21st of March ;-)
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[11:32:53] <Joel Halpern_web_161> :-)
[11:32:56] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @Eric is it now SUMMER already?
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[11:33:35] <Darren Dukes_web_526> :)
[11:33:39] <Tony Li_web_645> I second the proposal for changing the WG name.
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[11:34:13] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @TonyL ... you think we need more heat? ;-)
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[11:34:43] <Ted Hardie_web_639> @Ketan How about a beach and frosty drinks?
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[11:35:06] <Tony Li_web_645> Right now, yes. It's positively chilly here in CA. Relatively, of course. :)
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[11:35:38] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> +1 for frosty drink; not so sure of beach where I am at. Feels like summer already :-(
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[11:37:04] <Darren Dukes_web_526> Can anyone else hear the echo?  Is that the room mics or someone else?
[11:37:17] <~~dhruv~~dhody~~> Yeah In Bangalore it is HOT 34 C (94 F) and its march!
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[11:37:28] <Tom Hill_web_756> No echo in the room so far as we know
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[11:37:48] <Éric Vyncke_web_463> Slight echo in the room (but I am next to a loud speaker)
[11:37:50] <Joel Halpern_web_161> @Darren yes, there is a faint echo - probably the room microphones because we asked them to raise the room volume.
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[11:38:16] <Tom Hill_web_756> Ah, yes. Bruno is a little louder than Joel and Andrew were, too.
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[11:38:23] <Ted Hardie_web_639> Maybe Andrew is muted?
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[11:41:01] <Tony Li_web_645> Audio is cutting in and out.
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[11:41:26] <Tom Hill_web_756> I think that was Thomas
[11:41:26] <Lars Eggert_web_470> got better here now
[11:41:29] <Tom Hill_web_756> Seems to have resolved
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[11:47:59] <Andrew Alston_web_937> I presume that the references to c-sid refer equally to g-sid?
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[11:48:59] <Ted Hardie_web_639> This says adopt by OPSAWG at 113; was it adopted there?
[11:49:20] <Benoît Claise_web_772> Ted: No decision at this point in time
[11:49:31] <Ted Hardie_web_639> @Benoit  Thanks.
[11:49:33] <Erik Kline_web_292> the meaning of segments left when c-sids are present deviates from the 8200 semantic definition
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[11:51:32] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @Erik, looking at the draft the Segment Left seems to refers to what is in the SRH
[11:51:34] <Francois Clad_web_946> @Andrew the same considerations would be applicable to both NEXT-C-SID and REPLACE-C-SID (aka G-SID)
[11:51:36] <Darren Dukes_web_526> The same is true for Binding SIDs Erik, there should be no interpretation of the SID or its behavior IMO. Just transport the list and leave it to the consumer of the data to understand the SIDs
[11:51:39] <Ted Hardie_web_639> lides-113-spring-mpls-extension-header-encodings/
[11:52:01] <Meetecho> I've imported it now
[11:52:15] <Bruno Decraene_web_812> thanks
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[12:05:50] <Tom Hill_web_756> @meetecho May we have a slight adjustment to the levels in Grand Park 2? Louder microphones are causing some echo/mild deafening.
[12:06:13] <Tom Hill_web_756> (Remote attendees with microphones with high gain, that is)
[12:06:28] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @Dhruv, this is more of an implementation thing IMHO. I don't think we have a protocol gap.
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[12:07:05] <Meetecho> Tom, do you mean in the local room?
[12:07:07] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @Dhruv, ack - likely on multiple PCE based solution there might be some gaps
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[12:07:11] <Tom Hill_web_756> Yes @meetecho
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[12:07:14] <Meetecho> We were asked to increase the volume of remote speakers
[12:07:21] <Meetecho> Because they were not audible enough
[12:07:22] <Tom Hill_web_756> You were, it needs some fine tuning
[12:07:29] <~~dhruv~~dhody~~> @ketan - agree for single PCE case not for inter-domain PCE case
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[12:09:44] <Meetecho> Tuned the playout volume a bit, let me know if it helps
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[12:10:21] <Tom Hill_web_756> @meetecho, thanks - hopefully that will reduce the maximum volume.
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[12:11:03] <Cheng Li_web_730> I am thinking that do we have a requirements to deploy network like that. A option A solution seems very straightforward and easy to manage. Any way we will deploy a domain then another. So the service deployment Must have two steps. so in the first step a option A is already there.
[12:11:58] <Tom Hill_web_756> Remote attendees: please start with less microphone gain. We will tell you if you are too quiet :)
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[12:13:30] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @ Cheng, not sure that I follow your comment. Are you saying that underlay (transport) IW is not required?
[12:13:38] <Zhibo Hu_web_904> The goal of MPLS is to simplify forwarding and improve performance. Is the MPLS extension consistent with the original goal?
[12:13:39] <Jeff Tantsura_web_133> As the operator of one of the largest SR networks in the world, I sincerely hope to retire before I'd need to troubleshoot "network like that" :)
[12:14:54] <Tony Li_web_645> @Zhibo All of it is optional and far simpler than other, far more complex mechanisms to accomplish the same goals.
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[12:16:42] <Cheng Li_web_730> @Ketan, yes. I mean we may not need that.
[12:16:43] <Zhibo Hu_web_904> @Tony Li .In fact, if it need to read the bottom-of-stack information hop by hop, it is not friendly to forwarding.
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[12:17:13] <Cheng Li_web_730> Just go to SRv6 directly. If we update it step by step, then  use option A
[12:17:19] <Joel Halpern_web_161> I hope I got back in sync on which slide he is discussing.
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[12:18:07] <Tony Li_web_645> Most of the cases of bottom of stack data are for OAM.
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[12:20:51] <Tony Li_web_645> The value add is in the functions that are embedded. E.g. slice identification.
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[12:22:25] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @ Cheng, not every operator has the luxury to upgrade everything to SRv6. Doing Option A is an option (called overlay/service IW) for some use-cases but for others like mobility (SRv6 at edge and existing MPLS domains in the middle).
[12:22:33] <Cheng Li_web_730> it looks like we may spend many years to design the whole set of what we have in IPv6, telemetry/IFIT/IOAM, HBH, DOH, TLVs, SFC with metadata,  anycast.
[12:23:01] <Tony Li_web_645> The good news is that it can be done incrementally.
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[12:23:38] <Cheng Li_web_730> I like MPLS, it is very classical, simple with goof forwarding performance.
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[12:23:52] <Tom Hill_web_756> IMO it is a feature of SR-MPLS that does not include large amounts of metadata in the forwarding plane.
[12:23:58] <Cheng Li_web_730> but looks like it is getting complicated. sad to see that.
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[12:24:17] <Tony Li_web_645> People are welcome to not use it if they don't want to.
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[12:24:39] <Cheng Li_web_730> but I appreciate the effort the people have made to it. Thank you
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[12:24:47] <Tony Li_web_645> Unfortunately, the industry (and IETF) seems to add complexity, not simplicity.
[12:25:36] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> @tony - complexity sells :)
[12:25:50] <Tom Hill_web_756> *complexity IS sold :)
[12:26:06] <Yuya Kawakami_web_575> How about creating IPv6 VPN over the MPLS domain to forward SRv6 packets...? >SRv6 at edge and existing MPLS domains in the middle
[12:26:09] <Tony Li_web_645> Yes, but at some point, you end up with complexity collapse, when it can no longer be operated and supported.
[12:26:29] <Boris Khasanov_web_264> @Tony, not always, yesterday you told about simplification, for example.
[12:26:30] <Tony Li_web_645> The whole point of this is to avoid the SRv6 overhead.
[12:26:38] <Tom Hill_web_756> @Yuya I believe that was an example in the interworking draft presented earlier.
[12:26:51] <Dan Voyer_web_639> in order to go to SRV6, you first need an IPv6 network and refreshing boxes to support SRv6 is not always easy. IPv6/SR-MPLS is a good transition for some part in the network while refreshing boxes for SRv6..
[12:26:58] <Tony Li_web_645> @Boris Does that mean that everyone will listen to me? :)
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[12:27:30] <Boris Khasanov_web_264> @Tony, yesterday - many, IMO.
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[12:27:36] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @ Yuva, that is what was referred to - 6PE
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[12:28:31] <Tony Li_web_645> @Boris Apparently we had different yesterdays. :)
[12:29:01] <Boris Khasanov_web_264> :)
[12:29:02] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @Yuva, I meant that was exactly what one of the solution/design was in that interworking presentation
[12:29:28] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> @dan, after you have got IPv6oSR-MPLS deployed and working, what would be the incentive to move to SRv6? I'd think that the choice to do one vs another should be done before
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[12:30:39] <Tony Li_web_645> @Jeff You need more overhead in your network so you waste more bandwidth and have to buy more boxes.
[12:30:52] <Dan Voyer_web_639> @jeff, service programming for SRv6
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[12:31:17] <Tom Hill_web_756> Which is an if, not a when
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[12:31:39] <Tom Hill_web_756> IF you want to do network/service programming in your data plane.
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[12:31:56] <Tony Li_web_645> Or, you can do it with MIAD.
[12:32:16] <Dan Voyer_web_639> @Tom, yes, as per your use cases and business drivers
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[12:32:52] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> @dan - what service? I do see interesting use cases in overlay, in underlay I need to move packets from A to B, and as soon as possible :)
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[12:35:02] <Yuya Kawakami_web_575> @Ketan Thanks, I missed it
[12:35:14] <Dan Voyer_web_639> @Jeff, ah true, you can keep service programming for overlay services only - I was shooting what came to mind.
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[12:37:15] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> @tony - we have been supporting context labels since forever, just distribute context with a dumbtrack of the day (and 8277 allows label stack)
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[12:39:16] <Tony Li_web_645> And MIAD is more knobs on top of that.
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[12:39:33] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> talking of complexity ;-0
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[12:39:55] <Tony Li_web_645> I did not create the feature request. :)
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[12:41:36] <Tom Hill_web_756> How are we doing on audio, folks?
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[12:41:50] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> locally - pretty good
[12:41:55] <Tony Li_web_645> Remote audio is excellent
[12:42:03] <Tom Hill_web_756> Excellent
[12:42:05] <Boris Khasanov_web_264> @Jeff - "Navigating network complexity" book :)
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[12:42:21] <Zhibo Hu_web_904> Technology is developing in a spiral of complexity and simplification.
[12:42:27] <Boris Khasanov_web_264> Remotely audio is good too
[12:42:29] <Tom Hill_web_756> @meetecho last tweak seems to have much improved the experience, thank you.
[12:42:43] <Meetecho> Glad to be of help!
[12:43:30] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> technology isn't developing passively, we are here to drive it (hopefully in the right direction)
[12:43:43] <Jie Dong_web_198> @Linda, what you mentioned is the mechanism for mapping 3GPP network slices to IETF network slices, there is a draft in TEAS: draft-geng-teas-network-slice-mapping
[12:43:46] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> meetecho rules!
[12:44:10] <Tony Li_web_645> @Jeff Technology is driven by finance, not by intelligence.
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[12:44:49] <Cheng Li_web_730> agree. LOL
[12:44:52] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> @tony - hopefully there's an intersection of both ;-)
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[12:45:00] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> somewhere...
[12:45:04] <Zhenbin Li_web_281> @Linda https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geng-teas-network-slice-mapping/
[12:45:06] <Tony Li_web_645> That is 100% on you Jeff.
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[12:45:24] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> doing my best!
[12:45:57] <Zhibo Hu_web_904> @Jeff yes, when it's too complex, we push it toward simplification, and when it's too little functionality, we push it toward complexity.
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[12:47:18] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> @zhibo - an intelligent creature learns from past mistakes, not so keeps on repeating them
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[12:48:25] <Zhibo Hu_web_904> 22/5000 拼音  翻译
No, I think this is a benign development, not a repetition of mistakes.
[12:48:41] <Shraddha Hegde_web_237> There iOAM proposal for SR-MPLS. what is the difference between path tracing for SR-MPLS and the iOAM proposal?
[12:49:55] <~~dhruv~~dhody~~> I guess, just the claim that they are better!
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[12:51:22] <Jeff Tantsura_web_257> @zhibo - not to any technology in particular, just a general statement
[12:52:09] <Pablo Camarillo_web_315> @Shraddha: Path Tracing tackles a different use-case, and as such the architecture differs. Path Tracing (due to the minimal dataplane design) can be implemented across most hardware in the datapath (at linerate without any coprocessor).
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[12:53:43] <Shraddha Hegde_web_237> @pablo could you pls elaborate what is the difference in usecase from an operator perspective?
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[12:58:30] <Justin Iurman_web_926> I agree with Greg. Not sure why they tackle different use cases. It looks like the only thing would be to define new "compressed" IOAM data fields to have something similar
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[13:03:25] <Pablo Camarillo_web_315> @Justin: it is not only about compressed data. That is one important factor. But the way the header is designed helps on how many editing commands you need to support it. In Path tracing all the nodes do the same editing action (always shift and stamp).
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[13:04:07] <Pablo Camarillo_web_315> @Shraddha: ECMP monitoring and troubleshooting with information collected on the datapath itself (no CPU, no OAM coprocessors or similar)
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[13:07:25] <Justin Iurman_web_926> @Pablo fine, but so does IOAM. I don't really see a big difference in what you described for PT
[13:07:38] <Greg Mirsky_web_676> @Pablo IOAM DEX allows an operator use a local policy and export telemetry information directly to RC
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[13:08:04] <Éric Vyncke_web_463> Feel sad that no presenters have turned on their video :-(
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[13:08:28] <Tom Hill_web_756> Thomas did? :)
[13:08:36] <Greg Mirsky_web_676> Or one can use HTS to collect information along the path in the follow-up HTs packet. Without any limitation on the amount of data
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[13:08:56] <Jim Guichard_web_375> @Eric that is because they are all in their pajamas ;-)
[13:08:56] <Darren Dukes_web_526> @eric too early/late/tired by friday :)
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[13:09:17] <Cheng Li_web_730> all no camera in office...
[13:09:23] <Éric Vyncke_web_463> @Tom, indeed ! Kudos to @Thomas :birthday:
[13:10:00] <Éric Vyncke_web_463> @Jim, do you speak by personnal experience ? :-) (I did a couple of call in pyjamas to be honest)
[13:10:22] <Cheng Li_web_730> A f2f IETF meeting is attractive. Wouldn't wait for too long. has been 2 years and longer....
[13:10:27] <Tom Hill_web_756> The virtual meeting on Bangkok time was definitely in pyjamas
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[13:11:45] <Jim Guichard_web_375> @Eric damn i am definitely assimilated as i forgot how to correct pyjamas correctly 8^)
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[13:12:11] <Jim Guichard_web_375> @Eric *spell
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[13:12:58] <Lars Eggert_web_814> so each hop would rewrite the udp payload and recompute the checksum?
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[13:13:54] <Darren Dukes_web_526> @lars it appears so.
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[13:14:27] <Ahmed Abdelsalam_web_719> @ Greg The postcard (i.e, HTS) and passport (i.e, Path Tracing) modes are two different ways of collecting packet path information from the network. The Path Tracing solution defined in this draft uses the passport mode. The original challenge of the passport mode is collecting the data from NPU, in the normal packet pipeline, at linerate. This challenge has been solved in Path tracing.
Also on the HTS, how many postcards you would need to export to measure a network with  X paths each of which has N hops... and will the node telemetry system scale for that ?
I won't the controller scale which has to aggregate all of these packets to build a path compared to Path tracing .. which you have the path info in single packet collected from NPU at line rate
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[13:18:17] <Justin Iurman_web_926> +1000 Greg
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[13:21:37] <Haoyu Song_web_587> @Ahmed IOAM DEX uses the post card mode
[13:22:08] <Greg Mirsky_web_676> @Ahmed as was pointed out, updating IPv6 packet requires re-calculation of the checksum. That negatively impacts the accuracy of time measurement and smaller data space cannot help here. IMHO, separating data generation from data collection and transport is the better operational method
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[13:23:43] <Haoyu Song_web_587> @Greg The draft needs to standardize an SRH flag bit and therefore it goes to SPRING and the intended status is STANDARD
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[13:25:28] <Greg Mirsky_web_676> @Haoyu, you believe that there's a need for the flag. I don't see such need at all. IMHO, draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options solves IOAM encapsulation for all IPv6 cases, including SRv6
[13:25:30] <Boris Khasanov_web_264> Are there anyccccccvktdvullgveldrkitfkttitffdvkurjicrihdv
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[13:25:57] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> the cat is back ;-)
[13:26:16] <Ahmed Abdelsalam_web_719> @Greg which checksum are you referring to ? There is no checksum in IPv6 header and we don't have any UDP here.
[13:26:43] <Boris Khasanov_web_264> @Ketan - yes :(  2nd try: are there any implementations for SR Policy groups?
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[13:28:02] <Murray Kucherawy_web_357> Cat, or OTP?
[13:28:14] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @ Boris, I am aware of one
[13:28:15] <Tom Hill_web_756> It does look yubikey-esque
[13:28:26] <Murray Kucherawy_web_357> I was going to say "Yes, we have some tllgbkndhfhfbdbvevgulcggbiebunve".
[13:28:36] <Haoyu Song_web_587> @greg that is also a draft proposal and I have made the comparison and give the reason why we have this one
[13:28:37] <Boris Khasanov_web_264> :))
[13:29:30] <Greg Mirsky_web_676> @Ahmed, are you suggesting that you do not allow UDP transport if Path Tracing is used?
[13:29:41] <~~dhruv~~dhody~~> @mike that document is now cooked! i am sure ketan would not like that
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[13:30:02] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @ Dhruv, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-22#section-8.6 covers this
[13:30:02] <~~dhruv~~dhody~~> It is in RFC Ed Queue :)
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[13:30:22] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> it is covered - though not directly/explicitly
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[13:30:32] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> if we put 1 and 1 together to get to 2
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[13:31:54] <Jie Dong_web_198> is the composite candidate path in the draft the same as what is called "sr policy group" in this document?
[13:32:04] <~~dhruv~~dhody~~> @ ketan - this is not at the SR policy level but at the individual constituent SR policy
[13:32:15] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_529> @dhruv yes
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[13:32:18] <Ahmed Abdelsalam_web_719> @ Greg, as documented in the draft, we use probe packets. There is no UDP.
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[13:32:22] <Andrew Alston_web_538> Thanks guys :)
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[13:32:26] <~~dhruv~~dhody~~> thanks
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[13:32:35] <~~dhruv~~dhody~~> bye! hope to see in person next!
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[13:32:38] <Yuya Kawakami_web_575> Thank you!
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[13:32:39] <Boris Khasanov_web_264> thanks a lot!
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[13:32:42] <Andrew Alston_web_538> Feel free to reach out if anyone needs anything from my side as well !
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[13:32:49] <Justin Iurman_web_641> @Haoyu I understand the reason(s) why you proposed such a draft, but as Greg said, there are already solutions. If you don't want to use EHs, then use SRv6 encapsulation. If it's a matter of available space limit (both EHs and SRv6), then why not using DEX? I just don't think pushing IOAM after layer 4 is a good idea, kinda breaks the semantics
[13:32:51] <Tom Hill_web_756> See you all in July :)
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