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Thursday, March 11, 2021< ^ >
martin-vx has set the subject to: IETF-110
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[12:09:46] <Joel Halpern_web_717> Hello.  Chairs are also watching here for issues.
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[12:24:49] <Ron Bonica_web_378> Does this make the merge node stateful?
[12:26:01] <Xuesong Geng_web_545> Yes,  flow status is necessary for dropping the redundant packet;
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[12:26:31] <Ron Bonica_web_378> What happens when the merge nodes ability to retain state is overrun?
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[12:30:17] <Cheng Li_web_866> good comment! Ron! It is worthy to be discussed.
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[12:31:52] <Xuesong Geng_web_545> This redundancy protection mechanism is for flows that requests ultra high reliability. There won't be too many this kind of flows in the network
[12:32:07] <Mach Chen_web_696> It supposes that there is a  Controller that is response for configuring relevant SR policy on Merge node, it should know what's the ability of the merge node and will not let the merge node overrun.
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[12:33:25] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> Controller isn’t aware of rate packets are replicated
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[12:36:36] <Mach Chen_web_696> For a detnet flow, the controller should rate
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[12:44:15] <Mach Chen_web_696> For a DetNet flow, the controller should know the flow specification. That's the pre-condition.
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[12:45:06] <Joel Halpern_web_717> I hope that this replicatin redundnacy draft is clear about the controller knowledge and behavior requirements?
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[12:45:50] <Mach Chen_web_696> Yes, it should be clarified in the draft.
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[12:48:07] <Jim Guichard_web_495> i believe a distinction between protection and restoration  as suggested by Bruno could help to move this work forward - suggest both author sets talk!
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[12:51:43] <Andrew Alston_web_643> I can confirm I've been doing some testing of the technology
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[12:52:41] <dhruvdhody> @shraddha - the I-D name does have mpls in it -> draft-hegde-spring-mpls-seamless-sr-05
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[12:55:31] <Jie Dong_web_406> @dhruv, thanks, that is exactly what I mean
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[12:56:28] <dhruvdhody> Is intent the right term for what i assume to be optimization criteria/constraints identified by color? Does it help or create more confusion with the concepts of intent-based networking in NMRG....
[12:56:33] <Joel Halpern_web_717> As a practical procedural matter, I would suggest that we not worry about fixing the file name until / unless / when we get WG adoption.  The draft title is internal and the authors can change that as they please.
[12:56:54] <Joel Halpern_web_717> @DhrubDhidy - this usage of intent does not match the meaning of the term I have seen elsewhere.
[12:57:14] <Joel Halpern_web_717> Sorry about the name typo Dhruv.
[12:57:28] <dhruvdhody> i agree, and no problem :)
[12:57:41] <Jim Guichard_web_495> @dhruv intent is the right term as the point is that an advertised route can indicate how traffic should be forwarded toward it
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[12:57:52] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> +1 Dhruv
[12:58:17] <Joel Halpern_web_717> What intent means in nmrg is a technology agnostic expression of a desired result.  A color is not a desired result and is not technology agnostic.
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[12:58:42] <Joel Halpern_web_717> And that is close to how the rest of the industry is using the term.
[12:58:49] <Shraddha Hegde_web_946> @Dhruv ya. that was an oversight. I didn't want to change the draft name due to the operational overheads. The draft does cover SRv6 and requirements as well as solution covers SRv6. The title of the document is "Seamless SR" so no mpls keyword there
[12:58:59] <Jim Guichard_web_495> so perhaps we can have "desire" networking :-) i like that
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[12:59:17] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> wishful network :)
[12:59:37] <Mach Chen_web_696> :grin:
[12:59:37] <dhruvdhody> thanks @shraddha, understood!
[12:59:49] <Joel Halpern_web_717> @Jeff I do sometimes wonder if Intent Driven Networks are better called mgic-driven networks.
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[13:00:58] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> The function is a rather imperative one, and doesn’t match common definition on intent in the industry
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[13:02:25] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> @joel - it might look like mgic indeed :)
[13:03:09] <Ran Chen_web_213> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu-02
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[13:05:07] <Tom Hill_web_429> As an aside to the last draft, "colour" is problematic for a variety of reasons in English, not the least of which is distinguishing things based on their "colour". With respect to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-knodel-terminology-04, is there a better phrase that the draft authors could have used?
[13:05:39] <Tom Hill_web_429> (Of course, colour/color being interchangeable here; the same problem exists in en_GB as it does in en_US)
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[13:06:40] <Joel Halpern_web_717> @Tom I am not sure I follow your quesiton.  Quite possibly I am being dense.  If they were actual colors, being perceived by eyes, I could "see" lots of concern.  But that is not the case.  Can you elaborate?
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[13:06:57] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> @Tom a grep for color/colour found no matches in the draft link you have pointed to
[13:07:41] <Jeffrey Haas_web_108> Related note on LCU draft history - presented July last year: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-szarecki-idr-bgp-lcu-traffic-steering-00
[13:07:59] <Tom Hill_web_429> You probably need to read the draft linked to understand more. It isn't as prescriptive as specifying exact words, but it does speak about the importance of choosing technical language that isn't loaded with unfortunate metaphor (e.g. "Master/Slave")
[13:08:45] <Joel Halpern_web_717> @Tom Hill I am quite familiar with (and supportive personally of) the terminology issues raised in Knodel.  Just having trouble connecting the dots.
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[13:10:03] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> @ Tom, I am aware but just as Joel not able to follow in this specific case.
[13:10:25] <Tom Hill_web_429> I am surprised that the dots are not connectable
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[13:12:00] <Tom Hill_web_429> "Coloured" is a phrase that has a dark, historical usage to delineate a group of persons that were purportedly a lower class of human, and should be treated differently.
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[13:12:33] <Ram Santhanakrishnan_web_663> Is the new DTM function same as one listed in this draft
[13:12:33] <Ram Santhanakrishnan_web_663> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-end-dtm/
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[13:13:11] <Eduard V_web_794> Open question to everybody: do we have an interoperability standard (between MPLS and SRv6) that would work without a controller? I suspect it could be more popular in a multi-vendor environment.
[13:13:33] <Tom Hill_web_429> There are good reasons to revisit the language 'we have always used', and I'm raising the question here in respect to draft-knodel-terminology.
[13:14:10] <Tom Hill_web_429> @Eduard would controllers with a multi-vendor focus also be an option there?
[13:14:29] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> @ Tom - ack on "colored" - I am aware of that one.
[13:14:31] <Joel Halpern_web_717> @Tom if I follow, your concern is not with the word "color/colour" but with the word "colored / coloured"?  That is an aspect that did not leap to mind.  Have to think about it.
[13:14:39] <Tom Hill_web_429> (Though I like the idea that it works without a controller)
[13:15:01] <Eduard V_web_794> Controller for multi-vendor just does not exist. if you would ask for descent functionality.
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[13:15:34] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> The BGP based proposal does not require controller
[13:16:12] <Eduard V_web_794> BGO, of course, but do we have analysis for interoperability?
[13:16:19] <Eduard V_web_794> without controller
[13:16:24] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> @eduard- you lookup next-hop and resolve over the best available route, and encap accordingly
[13:16:42] <Pablo Camarillo_web_538> @Ram the DTM behavior is different (look at pseudocode). This one decapsulates and lookups the inner/exposed MPLS label stack. The other one decaps and pushes an mpls stack (like a BSID)
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[13:16:54] <Eduard V_web_794> Jeff, you believe that such analysis is not needed?
[13:17:02] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> @Ram the End.DTM stands for different things in the two drafts. Then End.BM with Decap in this draft is (I believe) equivalent to End.DTM in the other draft
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[13:17:08] <Shraddha Hegde_web_865> color is also overused term. Many people use link-color to indicate link-affinity and it is quite confusing what color one is talking about
[13:18:00] <Joel Halpern_web_717> @Shraddha Good point.  I can see why the authors were inclined to use the same word.  But if the concepts are different, maybe we should use different words?
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[13:18:22] <Boris Khasanov_web_887> Yes, BGP based solution looks suitable for such multi-vendor cases.  The question is only when it will appear in vendors roadmaps.after WG adoption
[13:18:34] <Tom Hill_web_154> @Ketan, @Joel: unfortunately, I would expect it inevitable in English to use "coloured" if one uses the concept of "colour" to distinguish something from something else - I know the IETF is good at splitting hairs, but the spirit of draft-knodal-terminology is to think a little more broadly.
[13:18:55] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> @eduard BSID provides abstraction for a next path and should work in most cases
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[13:19:20] <Joel Halpern_web_717> @Tom Thanks.   Now I understand what you are getting at.  A point the WG should consider.
[13:19:25] <Eduard V_web_794> Thanks. I need to look to BSID carefully
[13:19:28] <Tom Hill_web_154> Thanks Joel :)
[13:19:31] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> @Shraddha @Joel color is familiar term here and has the same meaning as it has in SR Policy
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[13:20:21] <Joel Halpern_web_717> @Ketan is the usage in SR Policy the same as the usage in link affinity or flex-algo?
[13:20:32] <Jeffrey Haas_web_108> IETF has iterated through a number of "has named attribute" in technologies over the years.  color, community, tag, attribute, etc.  color has been in use for TE purposes for years.
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[13:21:54] <Jeffrey Haas_web_108> Unlike most of draft-knodel, color is not a word that is consistently negatively loaded.  As noted, "colored" can be.  It's possible to address this by grammatically shifting to "has color" or "has color attribute".  That said, I suggest deferring this conversation to the venues covering draft-knodel et al.
[13:21:56] <Tony Przygienda_web_838> At least we do not have physics envy no spin anywhere well lots of spin on presos  sometimes smile
[13:22:01] <Tom Hill_web_154> We've used, "Master/Slave" in regular parlance for years. The question today remains: is that appropriate?
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[13:22:10] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> @Joel we have link-color as a synonym for link-affinities or admin-groups. The color in SR Policy is exactly the same as in the BGP CAR
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[13:22:52] <Jeffrey Haas_web_108> Tony, fix would be moving the value to an IEEE float and make the values nm of frequency in visible spectrum.
[13:22:54] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> @ Jeff Haas, exactly what I was thinking too
[13:23:24] <Tom Hill_web_154> *sigh*
[13:24:07] <Jeffrey Haas_web_108> Point being, Tom, that the fight may be worth having, but not here as a point discussion.
[13:24:10] <Tony Przygienda_web_838> I will write the first draft in ultraviolet then :-)
[13:24:11] <Tony Przygienda_web_838> I will write the first draft in ultraviolet then :-)
[13:24:28] <Tom Hill_web_154> I'm not sure that joking about it makes the point you think it does :)
[13:24:44] <Tom Hill_web_154> All I asked was, "Is there a better alternative?"
[13:24:44] <Joel Halpern_web_717> I understand that the TERM working group will likely be formed.  When we have IETF rough consensus, I expect that it will follow that the WG will look at the quesiton Tom is raising again.
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[13:26:46] <Jeffrey Haas_web_108> Believe me, Tom, I'm quite aware of the challenges of the discussion about how relabeling long standing terms in social and legal spheres is difficult.
[13:27:08] <Joel Halpern_web_717> @Tony Given the difficulty the IETF is having on having discussion around the topic, jokes tend to end up not funny.  Even though it made me smile.
[13:27:34] <Tony Przygienda_web_838> Joel it may be the only adequate response for political correctness discussions taking over what should be a technical working group here
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[13:27:51] <Eduard V_web_794> +1
[13:28:02] <Tony Przygienda_web_838> So let’s focus on technical content
[13:28:10] <Boris Khasanov_web_887> +1  Tony
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[13:29:37] <Salih_web_690> One more difference on END.DTM (what Ron presented) and END.BM is the END.BM is never the last SID in the SRH; but END.DTM is.
[13:29:49] <Jie Dong_web_406> +1
[13:30:27] <Joel Halpern_web_567> @Greg I want to let Zafar finish this slide before giving you the floor for your question.
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[13:30:48] <Joel Halpern_web_567> Are others hearing a lot of break up in Zafar's audio, or is it on my end?
[13:31:14] <Ron Bonica_web_378> @salih Good point
[13:31:24] <Jie Dong_web_406> I can wait till Zafar finishes
[13:31:43] <Joel Halpern_web_567> @Jie thanks.  I will let him continue.
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[13:32:08] <Linda Dunbar_web_678> agree with Greg
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[13:32:54] <Joel Halpern_web_567> I will assume the  queue is for the end of the presentation.  If someone sees something that needs to be said sooner, get on the queue and type something here please.
[13:33:20] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> @ Ron agree on the End.BM as defined in RFC8986 but I got the impression that Swadesh was talking about a new behavior "End.BM with USD" being similar to the End.DTM
[13:34:18] <Cheng Li_web_724> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cl-spring-generalized-srv6-np-02#section-6.1.1 we also defined a new behavior to explicitly encode SR-MPLS SIDs in SRH.
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[13:34:59] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> Normally the letter T has been used when there is a lookup involved about Decap. eg. End.DT4/6 - if we follow that terminology then End.DTM would mean Decap and Table lookup on MPLS label
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[13:36:03] <Cheng Li_web_724> but happy to see guys fill out the empty of the inter-AS scenarios. Straightforward idea, what we need to do it to merge the draft I guess?
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[13:36:57] <Daniel Voyer_web_491> @Cheng, that would be my definition of "happy ending" :)
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[13:37:17] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> @Dan +1
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[13:37:27] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> @dan - talk to your HR :)
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[13:38:16] <Daniel Voyer_web_491> :)
[13:39:12] <Tarek Saad_web_310> time check
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[13:39:32] <Boris Khasanov_web_887> @Ketan, sorry,  so what is your proposal: pick up either one End.BM or End.DTM?
[13:39:50] <Joel Halpern_web_567> @Tarek yes.
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[13:41:01] <Ketan Talaulikar_web_165> @Boris - we need both flavors IMHO and was discussing mostly terminologies.
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[13:43:07] <Boris Khasanov_web_887> @Ketan, thanks for clarification
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[13:47:31] <Vishnu Beeram_web_769> @Daniel -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nsdt-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-01 - we have a TEAS WG adopted document for the definitions..
[13:48:04] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> Exactly
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[13:49:08] <dhruvdhody> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition/ to be precise :)
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[13:49:59] <Cheng Li_web_724> agree,no need to discuss what is ns,i think, otherwise, what the people have done in the past few years
[13:50:44] <Daniel Voyer_web_491> @jeff and dhruv, these are drafts, although I abide to thse 2, but if you go read 3GPP-CT4, there are another set of definition
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[13:51:10] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> Since we have already defined it, every solution document should be referring it, rather than reinventing the wheel
[13:51:27] <Boris Khasanov_web_887> +1 Jeff
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[13:51:56] <Daniel Voyer_web_491> +1 Jeff, perhaps referencing these 2 within the building block draft
[13:52:17] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> @dan - this is IETF NS, not 3GPP and carries all the relevant semantics
[13:52:35] <dhruvdhody> Robin's email was more about VTN, slice aggregate,  slice ID though.....
[13:53:04] <Eduard V_web_794> +1 Jeff, but it would not help - is it possible to sort all this mess around slicing?
[13:53:12] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> Which are the potential solutions, not definitions
[13:53:28] <Vishnu Beeram_web_769> @Daniel -- there is probably a need for a document that maps the 3GPP constructs to the IETF Network Slice (there are some proposals for that -- individual drafts) ; within the IETF, we would expect any NS related solution work to reference the TEAS definitions draft
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[13:53:57] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> There’s  TEAS adopted document that does exactly that
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[13:54:23] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> Beeram :)
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[13:55:34] <Jie Dong_web_406> the network slice in the teas-slice-definition draft is more about "network slice service"
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[13:56:12] <Jie Dong_web_406> VTN, Slice Aggregate, Slice-ID are about the underlay network used to carry the "network slice service"
[13:56:12] <Cheng Li_web_724> time check
[13:56:19] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> There’s a number of dmm documents that try to provide mapping
[13:56:24] <Cheng Li_web_724> only 3 minus left...
[13:56:25] <Vishnu Beeram_web_769> @Jeff -- understand.. I interpreted Daniel's point as needing something along the lines of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geng-teas-network-slice-mapping/ -- but agree that the IETF Network Slice definition should be the starting point for all solution work..
[13:56:36] <Joel Halpern_web_567> We are not going to get to the two drafts that were marked on the agenda as "time permitting".
[13:56:43] <Vishnu Beeram_web_769> and yes the DMM documents as well..
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[13:57:03] <Daniel Voyer_web_491> @Jeff, the doc/draft that clearly define @Vishnu's point 3GPP < -- > IETF, did you send a memo (forgot the name of that type of doc) to the 3GPP associated WG ?
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[13:57:22] <Jeff Tantsura_web_943> dmm
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[14:00:55] <Jie Dong_web_406> @Joel, OK, and @ all please review the slides for the next presentation as it is highly relevant to this one
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[14:01:25] <Jie Dong_web_406> @all, please review the slides of the next prep, it is highly related
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[14:02:09] <Joel Halpern_web_567> Yes, the slides for the remaining two presentations are on the materials site.  Please look.
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[14:02:19] <dhruvdhody> bye!
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[14:02:24] <Jie Dong_web_406> thanks
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