IETF
spring
spring@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, March 8, 2021< ^ >
~~dhruv~~dhody~~ has set the subject to: IETF-109
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[11:56:06] <Tony Li> Good morning
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[11:58:02] <Darren Dukes_web_636> Good morning/afternoon/evening
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[11:58:35] <Éric Vyncke_web_224> Good afternoon ;-)
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[11:58:53] <Bob Hinden_web_816> Good morning
[11:58:53] <Éric Vyncke_web_224> Time for an audio check by the chairs ?
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[11:59:16] <Joel Halpern_web_567> The chairs have checked our audio.  We are waiting to start the session.
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[11:59:30] <Tony Przygienda_web_415> Good morning everyone
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[11:59:41] <Randy Bush_web_998> good grief
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[11:59:57] <Donald Eastlake_web_935> Hi
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[12:00:18] <Pablo Camarillo_web_165> Good morning!
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[12:00:38] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> good morning!
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[12:01:44] <Andreas Pantelopoulos_web_491> good morning!
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[12:01:47] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> Good afternoon !
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[12:02:13] <Cheng Li_web_781> good morning, afternoon, and evening! Guys on the earth!
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[12:02:57] <Melchior Aelmans_web_222> Hi all!
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[12:04:08] <Stefano Previdi_web_811> Good Day!
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[12:04:51] <Cheng Li_web_751> How are you doing Stefano?
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[12:05:15] <Stefano Previdi_web_811> Hi Cheng, doing fine from rainy Rome...
[12:05:37] <Cheng Li_web_751> LOL, SPRING time you know.
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[12:06:05] <Éric Vyncke_web_224> ;-)
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[12:11:00] <Tom Hill_web_991> Did we lose audio?
[12:11:03] <Éric Vyncke_web_224> Lost audio ?
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[12:11:04] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> Did the audio just disappear?
[12:11:05] <Boris Khasanov_web_448> Voice lost?
[12:11:07] <Tony Przygienda_web_415> Yeah
[12:11:10] <Gunter Van de Velde_web_129> yep
[12:11:16] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> ah, its not us
[12:11:22] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> :)
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[12:11:37] <Éric Vyncke_web_224> And indeed going through requirements first would be more sensible / logical
[12:11:38] <Darren Dukes_web_636> yes Jim, Requirements draft first was the preferred one
[12:11:43] <Darren Dukes_web_636> first
[12:11:44] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> need to reroute this segment ?
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[12:11:58] <Darren Dukes_web_636> Yes Yaakov :)
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[12:12:54] <Cheng Li_web_751> lol
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[12:13:18] <Tony Li_web_955> Why didn't TI-LFA work?
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[12:14:58] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> Maybe he is using a mobile phone and we need a topoGRAPHY independent method
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[12:15:55] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> Can the slides be shown in full screen mode?
[12:15:56] <Eduard V_web_817> TI-LFA failed again
[12:15:59] <Melchior Aelmans_web_222> yes gone again
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[12:16:23] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> there go the delay deadlines
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[12:16:30] <Tony Przygienda_web_415> The Great Wall ,-)
[12:16:42] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> not working so GREAT
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[12:18:27] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> Can the slides be shown in full screen mode?
[12:19:33] <Eduard V_web_817> Jim, could you push Ctr-L.
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[12:21:37] <Joel Halpern_web_567> @eduard, sorry, this seems to be what Jim can do effectively.
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[12:23:00] <Eduard V_web_817> thanks
[12:23:03] <Tony Li_web_955> Much better, thanks!
[12:23:14] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> MUCH better
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[12:25:01] <Donald Eastlake_web_935> Just a hint: Slides for IETF presentation should ALWAYS have slide numbers on them to avoid getting out of synch.
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[12:25:44] <Cheng Li_web_103> agree
[12:25:53] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> Slides for any forum MUST always have slide numbers
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[12:26:04] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> lost again?
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[12:26:14] <Eduard V_web_817> lost
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[12:26:29] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> I'll make sure to add numbers on my slides :)
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[12:26:48] <Joel Halpern_web_567> slide numbers are a good idea
[12:27:15] <Bob Hinden_web_816> +1
[12:27:35] <Jeff Tantsura_web_739> and not a really new one either ;-)
[12:28:14] <Tom Hill_web_991> I'd go one further and state that the name of the document, as well as the page number (and total page count, e.g. 1/56) should be in the footer.
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[12:28:41] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> the only exception is when you can arrange the slide titles to start with successive letters of the alphabet (and you better finish before you get to X)
[12:28:49] <Tom Hill_web_991> I'm as guilty as anyone of forgetting that, however.
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[12:29:32] <Boris Khasanov_web_448> Next one could be creation a unified IETF ppt template for presentations...
[12:29:40] <Ron Bonica_web_916> Jim, you are on the wrong slide
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[12:29:58] <Ron Bonica_web_916> OK, this one is the right slide
[12:30:00] <Joel Halpern_web_567> @Ron, we seem to have the right slide up.
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[12:30:15] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> back in sync
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[12:35:26] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> +1 to Andrew's comment !
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[12:36:16] <Gyan Mishra_web_650> +1 to Andrews comment
[12:37:01] <Darren Dukes_web_636> Keyur, I think you were talking about this earlier? https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/srcomp/ryOuYQbquExcmdi8a9KSNy4FAV4/
[12:37:07] <daniel.bernier@bell.ca_web_273> +1 as well
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[12:38:21] <Joel Halpern_web_567> Sorry Yakov.  Thanks.
[12:38:30] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> No problem!
[12:38:49] <Cheng Li_web_576> we did provide a version of analysis, but we did not get the agreement yet, so we leave it as empty@xuesong
[12:39:00] <Yaakov Stein_web_216> The last thing I want is to slow down the agenda and lose my own presentation time!
[12:39:04] <Darren Dukes_web_636> The design team decided to complete more requirements before generating and reviewing analysis.  Weiqiang mentioned the team will conclude on analysis mid april.  That should be entirely achievable.
[12:39:26] <Xuesong Geng_web_845> sure, looking forward to more progress
[12:39:43] <Cheng Li_web_576> many thanks for your comments!
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[12:40:11] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> @Cheng Li, but do you need a 100% consensus to move forward ? This is dragging a bit
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[12:40:34] <Jeff Tantsura_web_739> @boris - hasn’t precluded proper parsing of MPLS headers
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[12:40:57] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> @cheng Li, ..or rough consensus is ok perhaps ?
[12:41:05] <Andrew Alston_web_298> My only comment on this is to be blunt - it is sad - very sad - that the body that was designated to help standardization - has in effect forced a deviation of standards through a war of attrition - because people can't sit around and do nothing - so in the endless delays - things will move forward - independentl
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[12:41:53] <Ron Bonica_web_916> Andrew +1. If we let all proposals progress, we can let the marketplace decided
[12:42:06] <Ron Bonica_web_916> After all, the operators know what they want
[12:42:26] <Srihari Sangli_web_345> then is there a need for DT analysis and document ?
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[12:42:40] <Randy Bush_web_998> this was sob's theory.  i wrote a response in ccr in 2005
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[12:43:04] <Andrew Alston_web_298> Ron exactly - let them proceed - let the market decide - and at least that way - if there are any major flaws technically - they can be seen and dealt with before a vendor goes it entirely alone - which they WILL do if these constant delays go on forever while people conduct a war of attrition
[12:43:05] <Cheng Li_web_576> @daniel voyer, yes, de......la...y. We need a rough consensus.
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[12:43:31] <Ron Bonica_web_916> @Srihari No. The only reason we are doing this is so that we can figure out which compression mechanisms to suppress. Which ones to keep out of the operators' hands
[12:43:50] <Darren Dukes_web_636> On the question of code point squatting: Are there not experimental code points available for this purpose?  develop some code and do some experimental deployments? I'm interested in hearing why these do not work - maybe we can come up with better options in the future?
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[12:43:57] <Tony Li_web_955> Operators do NOT know what they want. They are susceptible to marketing, and the most vocal marketing seems to win.
[12:44:10] <Randy Bush_web_998> yup
[12:44:38] <Andrew Alston_web_298> Darren - really simple - because the long it continues the more people build systems on those code points - and it damages the market in relation to anything that needs to be built on top of those systems
[12:44:43] <Boris Khasanov_web_448> +1 Tony, you nailed it :)
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[12:45:46] <Randy Bush_web_998> it's not as much susceptible to marketing as want a clear design and forward path, not spaghetti thrown at the wall to see what sticks.
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[12:45:59] <Ron Bonica_web_916> Darren, Did the SRH use experimental code points before RFC 8754 was published?
[12:46:09] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> if the design team can't reach a consensus "soon", it will create a contention, and since there are running code of some solution, "soon" the conclusion will lost its weight
[12:46:14] <Andrew Alston_web_298> Darren - it gets to the point where stuff isn't experimental anymore - it gets to a point where - people are actively using it because of needs that cannot be met with other solutions
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[12:46:37] <daniel.bernier@bell.ca_web_273> Tony it is a pretty bold statement that operators do not know what they want
[12:46:59] <Andrew Alston_web_298> heh yeah - I don't agree with that statement by Tony - because I can say from this operator - we know exactly what we want - after a LOT of analysis
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[12:47:33] <Yaakov Stein_web_953> alternate marking is a parsimonious method to provide useful OAM in one bit. If you are already using IPv6 then you probably don't need to limit yourself to a bit ...
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[12:47:50] <Darren Dukes_web_636> @Ron, I'm asking because we assign experimental code points in registries for this use, but if they are not useful I would like to understand why.  Perhaps there is something better that we can be doing in the future.
[12:47:58] <Andrew Alston_web_298> we also know what we don't want - and purchasing decisions are now being impacted
[12:47:59] <Yaakov Stein_web_953> sorry IPv6 -> SRv6
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[12:48:29] <Ron Bonica_web_916> Darren, Were they useful for SRH?
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[12:48:48] <Andrew Alston_web_298> Experimental code points are useful for a short period - they are not useful when people are forced to start developing real production stuff on them because of attrition in the process of standardization
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[12:55:07] <Giuseppe Fioccola_web_695> @Yaakov yes agree, that's why we are defining a TLV that includes not only the bit for marking bat also a flow identification in order to reduce nodes configuration and simplify counters handling for a real deployment
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[12:57:22] <Yaakov Stein_web_953> But if you are defining all that, why not use conventional OAM techniques? What is the residual advantage of alternate marking?
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[12:58:10] <Yaakov Stein_web_953> [Sorry for not asking in audio - I don't want to consume my own time ...]
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[12:59:43] <Éric Vyncke_web_224> Humm unsure whether 'synthetic/artificial' packets will follow exactly the same path as ECMP can be used between two SID
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[13:00:45] <Joel Halpern_web_567> @Greg I presume you can wait till the end of the presentation for your quesiton?
[13:00:51] <Ron Bonica_web_916> I share that concern
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[13:00:58] <Yaakov Stein_web_953> So the point of using alternate marking is just the embedded OAM aspect?
[13:01:00] <Jeff Tantsura_web_739> Depending on hashing?
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[13:02:01] <Jeff Tantsura_web_739> With type encoded in UDP dest, it for sure won’t
[13:02:06] <Darren Dukes_web_636> @Andrew, thanks. This is what I was asking, I wonder if there is something that we can do in general within the IETF to formalize the process to move from an experiment with related code points to documenting shipping code and interoperable implementations and deployments.
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[13:02:28] <Eduard V_web_817> I have neetwork with 64k paths just on 5 hops. Active probe would not help.
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[13:02:42] <Ron Bonica_web_916> We have an early allocation policy for that
[13:02:47] <Giuseppe Fioccola_web_695> @Yaakov alternate marking is a passive methodology and allows to measure real traffic without the injection of artificial packets
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[13:03:33] <Yaakov Stein_web_953> Giuseppe - yes I realize that it doesn't require synthetic packets. But there are other methods to insert OAM into user packets.
[13:03:57] <Ron Bonica_web_916> @Darren RFC 7120
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[13:05:19] <Giuseppe Fioccola_web_695> @Yaakov I guess you mean In band OAM (IOAM). Alternate Marking and IOAM can be used together or alternatively. It depends from which measurements you need.
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[13:15:42] <Keyur Patel_web_417> @Darren: Yes that is correct
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[13:16:00] <Andrew Alston_web_298> Darren - I don't see how - that just leads to another place for people to start obstructing and creating further attrition
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[13:21:21] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> then why is this draft here if it's not SR based ?!
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[13:22:00] <Joel Halpern_web_567> @Daniel from where I sit, we will need to figure out if it is actually SR based.  He is not wedded to any specific encoding.
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[13:22:39] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> 👍🏼
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[13:23:24] <Yaakov Stein_web_953> @Giuseppe - yes, IOAM is one way. The point is that you can afford to put in time stamps or packet counts
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[13:26:57] <Yaakov Stein_web_953> @Daniel - the critical part of my proposal is the deadline stack; however since I can optimize both the path (forwarding) and deadlines (scheduling) it is naturally to wed it with SR. However, from my PoV I can encode routers in a network by indexes and save a lot of room! (and BTW, SR can do that more generally in a single network, and it is the most efficient and lowest computation SR header compression mechanism)
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[13:28:31] <Daniel Voyer_web_458> @Yaakov, ok, I will read your draft again with that in mind
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[13:29:03] <Yaakov Stein_web_953> @Daniel - the next version will address the encoding in more detail
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[13:30:34] <Giuseppe Fioccola_web_695> @Yaakov yes and this is exactly the difference between alternate marking and IOAM. You don't need to write counters and timestamps within the packet. The packet overhead is lower. Data do not change en route. The accuracy is almost the same but, with alternate marking, you can rely on bunch of packets and not packet by packet. This can also be better in terms of performance.
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[13:31:13] <Yaakov Stein_web_953> @Giuseppe - understood and appreciated.
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[13:32:19] <Giuseppe Fioccola_web_695> @Yaakov you are welcome, thanks for asking
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[13:39:30] <dee3@hot-chilli.net> When I look at the agenda, I see this presentation but not the previous presentation?
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[13:39:52] <Joel Halpern_web_567> @dee3 That is what I see.  The chairs apparently crossed each other up.  Sorry.
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[13:51:31] <Gurminderjit Bajwa_web_532> This presentation looks to be missing from the Meeting Material.
[13:53:02] <Meetecho> Gurminderjit Bajwa: do you mean in Meetecho or on the datatracker? If it's the former, there's a button to update that list in the materials tab
[13:53:07] <Joel Halpern_web_567> @Gurminderjit when I look at the meeting materials for today, this is the last presentation listed.  
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[13:53:47] <Meetecho> If the slides were added after the room started, that's why you don't find them yet: the "reload meeting materials" button should fix that
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[13:54:17] <Gurminderjit Bajwa_web_532> That worked. Thanks!
[13:54:34] <Meetecho> Glad to be of help! :)
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[13:55:09] <daniel.bernier@bell.ca_web_273> Bye guys
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[13:55:19] <Kentaro Ebisawa_web_680> bye!
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