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[07:51:51] <richard.barnes> morning, dan!
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[07:54:22] <AdamUzelac> test - test
[07:54:29] <AdamUzelac> ping
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[08:12:13] <victor.pascual> hi, where could we find the slides for this session?
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[08:17:58] <sal> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sipping/agenda
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[08:21:26] <danwing> Looks like there is no SIPPING scribe?
[08:22:06] <mhp> Is anyone getting streamed audio?
[08:23:22] <AdamUzelac> mary didn't ask for one - and there's only one microphone here in the room
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[08:23:51] <AdamUzelac> just for the presenter, and then passed back to the chairs, etc - should be addressed by noon today - but that's after this session
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[08:25:25] <AdamUzelac> is there no audio for remote participants?
[08:25:41] <mhp> I'm not getting anything
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[08:27:12] <mhp> Yay!  Audio is audible!
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[08:33:20] <saverio.niccolini> Hi, anyone experiencing problems with the audio on ietf72-ch5? I am not able to listen...
[08:34:46] <eburger> [Eric jumps in as Jabber scribe]
[08:34:55] <victor.pascual> thanks eric
[08:34:58] <eburger> Johnathan offers to cut Christer's head off :-)
[08:35:02] <mhp> I'm listening to ch6, which I *think* is sipping
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[08:35:16] <eburger> Volker is up, talking about Overload control.
[08:35:24] <eburger> Status update
[08:35:35] <eburger> (slide 2)
[08:35:41] <eburger> slide 3
[08:35:52] <saverio.niccolini> according to http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/ ch5 should be SIPPING...
[08:35:58] <saverio.niccolini> but will try to go to ch6
[08:36:17] <mhp> CH6 has someone called Volker taking about overload control - I think the channels may be mixed up
[08:36:34] <eburger> Volker is talking in SIPPING, so Channel 6 is SIPPING.
[08:36:39] <eburger> slide 4
[08:36:52] <eburger> Can you guys hear Volker?
[08:36:57] <mhp> I can
[08:37:21] <saverio.niccolini> good, I am listening now to ch6 and can hear VOlker talking... the web site is wrong...
[08:39:58] <eburger> Q.: Nothing here mentions RPH
[08:40:14] <eburger> Volker: not in this draft, but in solution draft
[08:40:23] <eburger> slide 5
[08:41:57] <eburger> Audio better?
[08:42:12] <eburger> Asking for feedback: is this useful for SIPPING?
[08:42:22] <eburger> Mary: working on this for over 2 years
[08:42:28] <eburger> lots of experts, conference calls, etc.
[08:42:49] <eburger> would like to take hum. Jabber now if you don't want us to work on it...
[08:43:22] <eburger> JDR: is this in addition to another deliverable, being some mechanism specified in SIP WG?
[08:43:24] <eburger> A: Yes.
[08:43:45] <eburger> Does anyone in Jabber land want this, or am I talking to myself?
[08:44:19] <mhp> slide prompts are helpful, but I can usually work it out from context
[08:44:53] <eburger> consensus hum taken and loud. A bunch of people actually read the document. Cool.
[08:45:05] <eburger> Slide 8
[08:46:25] <eburger> slide 9
[08:47:13] <eburger> [slide prompts are for folks who join in the middle, or for those presenters for whom it is hard to tell. At the least, it lets you know I'm awake and connected]
[08:47:15] <eburger> slide 10
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[08:47:53] <eburger> Like now, when I was just kicked off :-(
[08:48:27] <eburger> Ted Hardie with algorithm question
[08:49:14] <eburger> Q: "airplane algorithm" - piss off same people, so we don't abuse new people. Would this framework support this algorithm? Business folks may want it.
[08:49:49] <eburger> A: server could make choice, but might fit
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[08:50:47] <eburger> A: (hgs) you need additional information to do that algorithm. If strictly local matter, works fine. If need to feed data around network, then need a protocol mechanism, e.g., need upstream information for downstream element to make decision
[08:50:51] <eburger> Will be taken to list
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[08:53:58] <eburger> Henning's presentation
[08:54:19] <eburger> on throttling
[08:54:25] <eburger> on slide 2
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[08:54:57] <eburger> slide 3
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[08:55:45] <eburger> slide 4
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[08:57:11] <eburger> slide 5
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[08:59:25] <eburger> slide 7
[09:00:37] <eburger> Martin D.: if IP->PSTN, expect Gateway to do throttling
[09:00:57] <eburger> For real topologies being deployed, SUB/NOT isn't going to cut it.
[09:01:31] <eburger> A: sure, but it didn't seem like describing the real world mechanism would help.
[09:01:40] <eburger> Chairs: keep focus on problem, not solution
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[09:02:19] <eburger> JDR: Important to solve. How does this overlap with overload work, throttling, etc.
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[09:02:51] <eburger> Adam R.: Important to solve. Not clear if this will work for general purpose problem where we don't know where next hop is.
[09:03:16] <eburger> A: looking for minimal pre-configuration solution, but really focused on problems
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[09:05:10] <eburger> Update PAI
[09:05:26] <eburger> Slide 2
[09:07:53] <eburger> slide 3
[09:09:43] <eburger> Francois: want to avoid - don't want to add more schemes in future, or they get treated as an error. Worried implementations that do PAI will barf.
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[09:10:30] <eburger> A: already potential compatibility problem...
[09:10:48] <eburger> All we can do is document possibility and hope market converges
[09:11:29] <xmlscott> The acoustics in this room are such that side conversations are really echoing and even more disruptive than usual... please be sensitive to that and use very low amplitude and whisper (low frequencies propogate better)
[09:12:20] <eburger> Ted: sticking to current scope gives best guidance for what to do.
[09:13:53] <eburger> Jon: item 1: Ghosts of Identity Responses Past
[09:14:11] <eburger> Cannot advocate item 1
[09:14:19] <eburger> thus extending scope (2) is more reasonable
[09:15:30] <eburger> Cullen: his comments (year old) will pop up as IETF LC comments if not addressed
[09:15:47] <eburger> Keith: concerned about compatibility. Not solved by ignoring what you don't understand.
[09:17:03] <eburger> JDR: at the very least, make it possible to add FORWARD compatibilty
[09:17:59] <eburger> PAI is out there and being used in a big way, so we cannot allow a plethora of PAI-like headers
[09:19:01] <eburger> Mary: sense of room. Anyone in Jabber land care?
[09:20:25] <eburger> Anyone in Jabber land awake?
[09:20:44] <eburger> Anyone in Jabber land?
[09:20:56] <mhp> Still here!  Seems like the objections are more about PAI, rather than John's extension to it
[09:20:57] <eburger> Anyone?
[09:21:04] <eburger> thanks
[09:23:13] <eburger> Agreeing not to abandon document, but not progressing it, either
[09:24:10] <eburger> Correlation of Multiple SIP Sessions (draft-loreto-sipping-context-id-requirements)
[09:30:25] <eburger> Comments?
[09:31:24] <eburger> JDR: feels draft is still just trying to justify context-id, rather than focusing on use cases, e.g., camera & film use case
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[09:32:00] <eburger> suggest thinking about splitting media streams in multiple, but correlated, dialogs. Will give people opportunity to comment if that is interesting / a comment
[09:32:17] <eburger> Keith: not clear if CCS examples are really a problem
[09:35:31] <eburger> A: could use cookies, etc.; solution, not problem
[09:36:41] <eburger> Dale W.: some requirements are in use cases that have not been elucidated. E.g., one MESSAGE (page mode) may result in a conversation (MSRP), but you didn't know you needed it up front. Adds some minimal overhead, but saves lots if you do go forward.
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[09:37:49] <eburger> Offer / Answer rollback on failed re-INVITE (Christer Holmberg)
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[09:43:03] <eburger> I see why I need to do slide #'s: looks like I get kicked off for inactivity.
[09:43:06] <eburger> So...
[09:43:11] <eburger> Alternative 1 slide
[09:43:34] <richard.barnes> does someone have a URL for the slides?
[09:43:50] <mhp> http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08jul/slides/sipping-7.ppt
[09:44:04] <eburger> THanks. Michael was faster than me.
[09:44:12] <eburger> Second Alternative 1 slide
[09:44:44] <eburger> General list of slides is at:
[09:44:46] <eburger> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/72/materials.html [https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/72/materials.html]
[09:46:07] <eburger> Alternative 2 slide
[09:46:52] <eburger> Next Step slide
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[09:48:49] <eburger> JDR: "Rant On" Lots of people agree Offer/Answer has lots of broken stuff. This draft doesn't really address what needs to be fixed.
[09:52:13] <eburger> JDR: mild preference for alternative 2, because back to when O/A separated from signaling; should keep that separation
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[09:53:36] <eburger> RJS: discussion decoupled from SIP Dialog State discussion; probably a good thing
[09:54:30] <eburger> mild discomfort that when we figure out what to do with "remote contact" in dialog state, we may roll it back to the beginning of the INVITE; alternative 2 may break it, or decoupling might make it work
[09:55:36] <eburger> ANy thoughts of alternative 1 vs 2 in Jabber land?
[09:55:51] <eburger> Room has consensus for Alternative 2
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[09:57:15] <eburger> Alan: UUI (Q.931) in SIP
[09:58:23] <eburger> Slide 2
[09:58:31] <eburger> Slide 3
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[10:01:37] <eburger> slide 5
[10:02:29] <eburger> Why P- vs. regular header? Not Private, Proprietary, or Provisional.
[10:03:23] <eburger> Keith: Document is good for use case, but does not really have requirements in it
[10:03:46] <eburger> Adam: ditto
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[10:09:01] <eburger> David Schwartz: NSR Code
[10:09:17] <eburger> slide 2
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[10:10:01] <Dan York> BTW, remote audio is down. Joel Jaggli is looking into it.
[10:10:12] <eburger> :-(
[10:10:21] <eburger> OK, I'll type. Let me know when you're back.
[10:10:22] <mhp> I can hear it!  but it is on channel 6, not 5
[10:10:27] <Dan York> Oh
[10:10:31] <saverio.niccolini> I can listen audio now with David talking (ch6)
[10:10:33] <eburger> slide 3: discussion 410 versus 604
[10:10:36] <Dan York> Joel thought it was on channel 3
[10:10:38] <eburger> phew.
[10:10:43] Dan York goes to try channel 6
[10:10:56] <Dan York> ah, there it is
[10:10:57] <eburger> slide 4
[10:12:29] <Dan York> "I own Spain"... yes, I can hear the tones of Mr. Schwartz... :-)
[10:12:40] <eburger> slide 5
[10:12:56] <eburger> (And thanks, Dan, I am often thinking I'm Jabbering to myself)
[10:13:42] <eburger> hgs: disagrees with interpretation of 404
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[10:17:06] <eburger> Jon: looks like whole problem is because we are talking about E.164 numbers
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[10:18:02] <Dan York> (And so in some ways this all comes back to identity.)
[10:18:11] <eburger> Dale: what we (Bluesocket/PingTel) does in practice: cannot differentiate cases between 404 and other cases
[10:19:03] <Dan York> eburger: Thanks for scribing. I'll be clear if I have a question I'd like you to ask.
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[10:19:17] <eburger> thanks.
[10:21:10] <eburger> Joel: can't tell if a guess or legitimate request. In other words, Dan's assertion is correct.
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[10:23:01] <eburger> New topic: Requirements for vertical handover of multimedia sessions using SIP
[10:23:19] <eburger> Hi Saverio!
[10:23:23] <Dan York> Hi Saverio
[10:23:23] <saverio.niccolini> hi
[10:23:35] <eburger> slide 2
[10:24:21] <eburger> slide 3
[10:24:33] <eburger> slide 4
[10:24:37] <eburger> (Requirements)
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[10:25:53] <eburger> slide 5 - running code
[10:26:40] <eburger> hgs: long time ago, had session mobility effort
[10:27:07] <eburger> In dependency limbo, will publish some day. Not fundamentally different than this draft
[10:27:23] <eburger> Are we reinventing wheel that we have looked at closely?
[10:27:25] <Dan York> (I'd note that slide 7 mentions the session mobility draft)
[10:27:47] <saverio.niccolini> the history work is cited in the draft, there is some difference
[10:27:48] <eburger> on it :-)
[10:28:38] <eburger> Francois: "Need to be faster"... than what?
[10:28:43] <saverio.niccolini> it needs to provide session continuity'
[10:29:00] <saverio.niccolini> like Voice Call Continuity in 3GPP to make the equivalence....
[10:29:02] <eburger> something more specific?
[10:29:30] <eburger> Christer: related to 3GPP work. Are you aware of 3GPP work? Will this be brought to 3GPP? Is it something different?
[10:29:35] <saverio.niccolini> we are aware of 3GPP work on VCC
[10:29:48] <eburger> Is it different?
[10:30:09] <saverio.niccolini> the solution is needed to be discussed the motivation is the same...
[10:30:18] <eburger> Henry S.: Uses will use link layer to avoid roaming charges
[10:30:19] <saverio.niccolini> we are not discussing the solution now
[10:30:30] <saverio.niccolini> only the requirements
[10:31:00] <eburger> up to Conclusions slide
[10:31:30] <eburger> JDR: complement authors on document: problem statement, deployment scenario, issues
[10:32:00] <eburger> Want to see more SIPPING documents like this one!
[10:32:27] <eburger> Q: Just what does "faster" mean?
[10:32:30] <Dan York> who is speaking?
[10:32:38] <saverio.niccolini> Faster means: no interruption of voice at all (if possible)
[10:32:43] <eburger> (I wished you wouldn't ask that one)
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[10:33:42] <Dan York> (Methinks people need to identify themselves when they go do the mic)
[10:33:58] Dan York hums
[10:33:59] <eburger> Will keep that in mind for future sessions
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[10:34:21] <Dan York> Thanks for scribing, Eric
[10:34:21] <mhp> Thanks Eric, for your scribing - it was very useful
[10:34:25] <saverio.niccolini> thanks!
[10:34:43] <eburger> You're welcome. See you in SIP!
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[10:34:47] <mhp> much appreciated even though I didn't have many comments on it
[10:34:47] <Dan York> yep
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