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[08:02:37] <pguenther> that you, tony?
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[08:05:39] <Dave Cridland> Alexey now getting started and introducing himself.
[08:05:42] <pguenther> not quite so close to the mic, alexey
[08:05:54] <Dave Cridland> (I'm scribing, please shout)
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[08:06:15] <pguenther> hmmm
[08:06:24] <pguenther> it may just be a bad adjustment in the audio
[08:06:26] <pguenther> I'll live
[08:06:43] <Dave Cridland> Agnda Bashing.
[08:06:56] <Dave Cridland> Any comments for Agenda?
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[08:07:25] <Dave Cridland> We'll be discussing four main active documents in the working group.
[08:07:37] <Dave Cridland> Then talk about other extensions not in the WG.
[08:08:31] <pguenther> I think we can wrap up editheader on the list; I basically agree with the feedback that's been give
[08:08:34] <pguenther> n
[08:09:40] <Dave Cridland> Barry dicussing whether to talk about IMAP Sieve.
[08:10:02] <Dave Cridland> If we have extra time, we'll talk about it, if not, it's covered in Lemonade WG anyway.
[08:10:12] <Dave Cridland> About half WG docs are in RFC ed queue.
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[08:10:30] <pguenther> yeah, the sensitivity is a bit high on all the mics in the room; someone should mention that to the noc crew afterwards
[08:10:49] <pguenther> collations *is* an RFC
[08:10:54] <Dave Cridland> Base spec has been asked for IESG review.
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[08:11:07] <pguenther> it was
[08:11:10] <pguenther> (announced)
[08:11:22] <pguenther> RFC 4790
[08:11:34] <pguenther> (yeah Arnt!)
[08:11:49] <Dave Cridland> Other docs in the pipeline are Body (Asked for IETF LC)
[08:11:59] <pguenther> I'll cycle it one more time
[08:12:05] <Dave Cridland> Edit Header: Mail loops are holding it back a bit.
[08:12:36] <Dave Cridland> Alexey/Cyrus think that notify extension is basically ready, but needs reviews and feedback on changes.
[08:13:03] <Dave Cridland> Mailto notification is in WGLC, has open issues possibly, but not much feedback.
[08:13:22] <Dave Cridland> Refuse/Reject: Alexy has been too busy recently for an update.
[08:13:41] <Dave Cridland> Tony has updated Mime loops, but he'll discuss this later.
[08:14:31] <Dave Cridland> Next slide, Editheader interaction with redirect/reject.
[08:14:58] <pguenther> people didn't actually read the new text in the context of the draft
[08:15:11] <pguenther> the reject action still returns the oriignal header
[08:15:14] <pguenther> that has not changed
[08:16:23] <pguenther> I'll tighten up the looseness
[08:16:31] <pguenther> please relay to mic?
[08:16:54] <pguenther> same section, different paragraph
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[08:17:04] <pguenther> sorry, been a bit buried
[08:17:33] <pguenther> the "all other actions" text is right after the paragraph saying "reject is handling like *this*"
[08:18:08] <pguenther> trust me!
[08:18:09] <pguenther> :-)
[08:18:24] <pguenther> i'll get a new draft out soon
[08:18:39] <Dave Cridland> Next slide: Notification draft 1/3
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[08:20:01] <Dave Cridland> [everything being talked about is on the slides, BTW]
[08:20:15] <pguenther> it's required and people seem to dislike 'tagged' arguments (i.e. non-optional keyword arguments)
[08:20:40] <pguenther> 'size' may be the only sieve command that ever uses tagged arguments *or* numbers..
[08:20:49] <Dave Cridland> The two major changes are in bold at the bottom of slide 2/3.
[08:21:41] <Dave Cridland> First bold poitn is about notification URIs which can have information also in notify action, such as subject in both mailto URIs or notify parameter.
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[08:24:02] <Dave Cridland> Notification 3/3 - unless the authors hear otherwise, the document is done.
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[08:25:08] <Dave Cridland> Dave Cridland & Randy Gellens to do a full review of notify.
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[08:25:47] <Dave Cridland> Barry's presentation.
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[08:26:20] <Dave Cridland> Barry's slide 1. URI Parameter Conflicts
[08:27:00] <Dave Cridland> From option to notify, also header field in mailto URI.
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[08:27:28] <Dave Cridland> Do we: Override? Error? Something else?
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[08:27:41] <Dave Cridland> Barry likes "Error"
[08:27:52] <Dave Cridland> Alexey & Michael think Override.
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[08:28:20] <Dave Cridland> Alexey is thinking of external URIs being pulled in (perhaps from IMAP METADATA)
[08:28:41] <Dave Cridland> Barry thinks the external URI shouldn't have that information.
[08:29:11] <Dave Cridland> Barry thinks Ned might have useful opinion.
[08:29:28] <guenther> I suppose a script can code itself defensively to test the URI before it uses it
[08:29:35] <guenther> possible, but ugly
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[08:30:40] <Dave Cridland> SLide 2, undesirable URI params
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[08:31:05] <Dave Cridland> What do we do if a URI specifies unsafe headers?
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[08:31:55] <Dave Cridland> Barry thinks the small amounts of opinion he has skew towards ignoring bad headers.
[08:32:59] <Dave Cridland> Ted saying the mailto scheme RFC is pretty limited on these points.
[08:33:14] <guenther> hmm, there's no practical way to test the contents of a URI using just ":matches", you need regexps to break then down
[08:33:35] <Dave Cridland> Ted says that Sieve advice and mailto RFC advice is probably different.
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[08:34:18] <guenther> testing was in the context of the "conflict -> error" suggestion
[08:34:26] <Dave Cridland> Barry: The script wouldn't test the URI, the script engine would.
[08:34:38] <Dave Cridland> Slide, erm, 3: Message origin
[08:34:41] <guenther> that is, if it's an error, how can a script protect itself from an erorr
[08:34:52] <guenther> the swing to ignore makes this unnecessary
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[08:35:24] <Dave Cridland> Does the notification message come from the originl to, or from the notification system.
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[08:36:13] <Dave Cridland> Alexey points out a suggestion to make it an option.
[08:36:24] <Dave Cridland> Pete asks what the From is for.
[08:36:50] <Dave Cridland> And whether we're going to reply to these messages.
[08:37:05] <guenther> if the notification system can autoprocess bounces, then it belongs in the envelope from
[08:37:24] <guenther> maybe always is better, to block the loop possibility
[08:37:26] <guenther> (please relay)
[08:37:38] <aaronstone> i like pete's guidance suggestion
[08:37:58] <Dave Cridland> Philip: It's been raised by Pete/Barry.
[08:39:27] <tonyhansen> dave: not clear why worry about from notifications are there to send msgs *to* a user, not necessarily be *from* anyone in particular
[08:39:44] <guenther> the important 'from' here is the envelope from. IMHO, the env-from should *never* be the original
[08:41:46] <Dave Cridland> Pete: Saying much the same thing as Philip.
[08:42:18] <Dave Cridland> Slide 4: Body exceprts.
[08:42:31] <Dave Cridland> The "Barry's being silly one" as Barry says.
[08:43:42] <guenther> dave sounds good to me
[08:43:44] <tonyhansen> btw, the slides are at https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=68
[08:43:51] <Dave Cridland> Should we have the capability to specifically contain an excerpt in the message.
[08:43:53] <guenther> he had less fuzz than most
[08:44:23] <Dave Cridland> Dave Crocker saying that there's a long history of an excerpt being useful. But it's tricky to get it perfect.
[08:44:53] <Dave Cridland> (Argument about microphones, including mounted assault by Ted on Alexey to steal his)
[08:45:16] <resnick> Still loud enough out there in TV-land?
[08:45:23] <Randy> I didn't see the horses (mounted assault)
[08:45:43] <Dave Cridland> (My artistic license is fully paid up)
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[08:46:08] <guenther> ah, but does it comply with the new EU regulations?
[08:46:16] <guenther> pete: volume is fine here
[08:47:16] <resnick> And that is Randy even though he didn't seem to remember his own name.
[08:47:39] <Dave Cridland> Randy discussing whether the spec ought to say more than "this is a good idea", or should we stipulate down to the last octet.
[08:49:06] <Dave Cridland> Barry likes the idea of vague specification, with a view that mime-loops and body extraction to a variable would provide a strictly specified method for doing this.
[08:49:32] <Randy> I'm concerned that if we try and standardize it we end up with a sprintf format for how the script specifies how much of the body to use and how it appears
[08:50:12] <Dave Cridland> Barry comments that this automatic vague exceprt could be the default.
[08:50:14] <Randy> Since that prospect is so scary I urge us to instead say "engine may do this if it wants, it is helpful"
[08:50:54] <aaronstone> i'm missing where the :something "body=${extracted_text}" goes into the notify action.
[08:52:13] <Dave Cridland> And now, on Radio Sieve, over to Tony for Mime loops.
[08:52:41] <Dave Cridland> Tony SLide 2: Changes for -02.
[08:52:55] <Dave Cridland> Two issues with enclose:
[08:53:01] <Dave Cridland> (Slide 3, issue 1)
[08:53:29] <Dave Cridland> Should enclose throw away modifications?
[08:53:55] <guenther> I think enclose should honor changes
[08:54:11] <guenther> anyone using enclose to create bounces should be shot
[08:54:48] <Dave Cridland> Tony calls for anyone who cares. Room remains silent.
[08:54:58] <aaronstone> why would we *not* want to honor changes?
[08:55:24] <guenther> right
[08:55:28] <Dave Cridland> Show of hands on this issue being called by Alexey.
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[08:55:53] <Dave Cridland> Ted says we can always get unmodified behaviour by structuring the script carefully.
[08:56:01] <Dave Cridland> (As in not doing any modifications)
[08:56:43] <guenther> is anyone actually arguing for ignoring changes?
[08:56:49] <sm-msk> tony is
[08:56:54] <guenther> ah
[08:57:12] <sm-msk> wait no
[08:57:18] <sm-msk> it's just his slide creating discussion
[08:57:21] <Randy> Using the modified message goes further down the path of a programming language, but so what
[08:57:36] <tonyhansen> happy to live with consensus
[08:57:46] <Dave Cridland> Anyone else have an opinion on this?
[08:57:56] <guenther> use modified!
[08:58:07] * guenther was distracted by a cat
[08:58:24] <sm-msk> more specs have been hosed by cat distraction...
[08:58:25] <Dave Cridland> The cat has consensus, actually, but we're going for the modified message option.
[08:58:42] <Dave Cridland> Enclose issue 2, Tony's next slide.
[08:59:26] <Dave Cridland> Should we synthesize Date and From headers to reflect the current user and time?
[08:59:26] <guenther> is there text that can be stolen from the submission spec?
[09:00:04] <guenther> hmmm
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[09:00:29] <guenther> it's kinda like a submission, the creation of a full message from a partial one...
[09:01:21] <Dave Cridland> Note from the room about synthesizing new message id.
[09:04:34] <guenther> kjetil's idea is cute, but they're not much better than simply using a comma separated list, partly because there's no way to quote the value properly when adding it
[09:04:37] <Dave Cridland> (Discussion going on between Tony and ?Kjetl about syntaxes for extracting key/value pairs from variables)
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[09:04:57] <guenther> you can put quotes around it, but that won't handle embedded quotes or backslashes
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[09:05:51] <guenther> hmm, or maybe not
[09:05:59] <guenther> regexps would be as good
[09:06:03] <guenther> (or better)
[09:06:09] <guenther> but you can't do the extraction with just :matches
[09:06:32] <guenther> time for that SQL access extension
[09:06:48] <Dave Cridland> (I'm glad you're following this on the microphones, because I'm lacking a lot of context on this discussion)
[09:07:51] * guenther points to kjetil's message to the list
[09:08:00] <Dave Cridland> Alexey needs to email the list in his slides to Tony.
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[09:09:07] <Dave Cridland> Assuming all issues resolved, MIME loops will be last called in a couple of weeks.
[09:10:08] <Dave Cridland> Alexey's slides: Date Draft
[09:11:47] <Dave Cridland> Doc has no major issues now, Alexey to shepherd to IESG.
[09:12:13] <Dave Cridland> Alexey's slide: Environment & Notify extension
[09:12:38] <Dave Cridland> Ack. Environment & Notary.
[09:13:20] <guenther> net is being flakey?
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[09:13:49] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> Are you having voice issues or something else?
[09:14:33] <guenther> no, but I heard a bunch of people mention net issues in your background...
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[09:17:25] <kdz> We've lost our scribe
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[09:17:59] <Dave Cridland> Back.
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[09:18:33] <Dave Cridland> Okay... On Alexey's slide "Accessing IMAP per-mailbox annotations from Sieve"
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[09:19:25] <kdz> barry volunteered to shepherd an I-D...
[09:20:07] <Dave Cridland> So, fileinto sometimes creates mailboxes, sometimes doesn't. So there's a test and a fileinto parameter to force a :create.
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[09:20:42] <guenther> I should describe SMI's practice with this
[09:20:58] <guenther> extension adds ":create" keyword
[09:21:06] <guenther> :create is a request, not a force
[09:21:24] <guenther> this is arguably a bug in our implementation
[09:21:27] <guenther> that is
[09:21:36] <guenther> the bug is that we don't *always* create=
[09:21:41] <aaronstone> but if the implementation refuses to create when you've asked for :create, that got to be an error
[09:21:48] <guenther> IMHO, that's the Right Thing
[09:21:54] <guenther> well, no
[09:21:59] <kjetilho> aaronstone: I don't agree
[09:22:00] <guenther> not in our impl
[09:22:14] <aaronstone> what's your argument the other way?
[09:22:34] <guenther> in our impl, the :create ends up being a request to the underlying lmtpd; if it can't do it, then the message will silently go to the user's INBOX
[09:22:57] <guenther> can't or won't
[09:23:04] <guenther> (ACL might prevent)
[09:23:09] <guenther> the fileinto doesn't fail
[09:23:11] <kjetilho> aaronstone: actually the failure mode is essentially the same -- it becomes a keep
[09:23:35] <guenther> yes, fileinto turns into a +detail
[09:23:40] <guenther> aaron has it right
[09:24:04] <guenther> IMO, our example should not be followed
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[09:24:19] <guenther> people asking should be encouraged to always create in fileinto
[09:24:32] <guenther> it'
[09:24:32] <Dave Cridland> Alexey is talking through an example I suggested.
[09:24:36] <aaronstone> philip: that's exactly the policy that my impl. follows -- just that i do sieve between lmtp and mailbox storage :-)
[09:24:38] <guenther> it's more annoying than useful
[09:24:47] <Dave Cridland> It's the example on the next slide.
[09:25:06] <Dave Cridland> Onto the next slide:
[09:25:13] <Dave Cridland> Open issues:
[09:25:22] <Dave Cridland> Do we want access to server annotations?
[09:25:32] <Dave Cridland> (Probably yes, says Alexey)
[09:25:35] * guenther needs a new laptop that has enough diskspace to for openoffice, so he could read the slides
[09:26:15] <Dave Cridland> Chris point out that testing server annotations and testing environment are basically the same thing. Barry agrees, Alexey does not disaree.
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[09:26:44] <Dave Cridland> Philip: Ah, sorry.
[09:27:37] <Dave Cridland> Barry comments that there is no namespace-like thing in Environment that might support this.
[09:28:13] * guenther waits for Dave to break into the ACAP theme song
[09:28:21] <Dave Cridland> Barry suggest writing ACAP in Sieve. (Possibly not entirely seriously, this irony stuff is hard to follow).
[09:28:45] <Dave Cridland> Onto the second Open Issue.
[09:29:01] <Dave Cridland> Do we want access to LIST-EXTENDED data? ACLs?
[09:29:15] <guenther> oog
[09:29:37] * guenther tries to avoid losing the breakfast he just ate
[09:29:54] <tonyhansen> out of gourd?
[09:30:22] <Dave Cridland> And the next slide is "Externally stored lists"
[09:31:14] <guenther> my quip about an SQL access extension has a joke, btw
[09:31:36] <Randy> Maybe this should be via URLs?
[09:31:41] <Dave Cridland> (Alexey wasn't joking about ACAP, I'm sure)
[09:31:57] <Dave Cridland> (Randy: Exactly: acap://[...])
[09:32:20] <ams> dave: what about the managesieve protocol item?
[09:32:33] <Dave Cridland> Barry says he has lots of lists of this kind.
[09:32:42] <kjetilho> but that doesn't play well with different comparators, will it?
[09:32:42] <Randy> (Dave: yes indeed)
[09:34:36] <aaronstone> so, :list "string" is probably a bad name because its confusable with :param ["string", "list"]
[09:35:09] <aaronstone> and, this would be cool together with variable namespaces: ${external:name}
[09:35:21] <guenther> here here! (to randy's suggestion)
[09:36:40] <Dave Cridland> Kjetil asking about comparator interaction, but Barry explains this is purely a ["string" "list"] replacement.
[09:36:56] <Dave Cridland> Kjetil suggests that this probably doesn't scale too well.
[09:37:08] <guenther> hmm, how about using imap: URLs to access annotations/metadata in IMAP?
[09:37:25] <Dave Cridland> Kjetil And furthermore suggests a comparator which takes a URI on one side.
[09:39:06] <Dave Cridland> Zoltàn speaking, asking about the general issue.
[09:39:38] <Dave Cridland> Barry putting his script on the projector, to demonstrate.
[09:40:17] <Dave Cridland> Barry will now repeats with the microphone.
[09:41:52] <Dave Cridland> Randy points out we need to handle updates, and the LDAP server going down.
[09:42:00] <Dave Cridland> (I'm sure he meant ACAP server, though)
[09:42:11] <guenther> hehe
[09:42:35] <Dave Cridland> Pete says there are email clients which already have addressbook interaction in filtering.
[09:43:30] <guenther> who says the user will be writing the URI? won't the MUA be generating the URI to match the URI it uses for the address book?
[09:43:34] <Randy> (I was never suggesting that the extension to read data from an external source be the same as the one to update the data, just that once we add a way to read external data we'll sooner or later need a way to update the data)
[09:44:10] <aaronstone> i'm in favor of some kind of managesieve extension to maintain the external lists.
[09:45:03] <Randy> But you want to dynamically update the lists
[09:45:24] <aaronstone> maybe?
[09:45:38] <Dave Cridland> Pete on relative references: The "mylist" can be a relative reference, so the script engine uses a base URI to resolve it to an absolute URI.
[09:45:40] <Randy> That is, a particular message that matches some tests should have its from header or subject or whatever pushed into the external list
[09:45:48] <kjetilho> you don't want to duplicate lists
[09:45:54] <aaronstone> randy, i see your point, i'm not sure if i would implement it myself, but i agree that there's a reasonable use case.
[09:46:08] <Randy> It's a generalization of Eudora
[09:46:32] <Randy> It's a generalization of Eudora's 'intersects address book' test, and 'add to address book entry' action
[09:46:38] <aaronstone> oh oh -- automatically adding inbound/outbound addresses to the address book?
[09:46:44] <Dave Cridland> Ted suggests the terminally insane might use DNS.
[09:46:48] <Randy> yes
[09:47:02] <kjetilho> with include in Sieve, it wouldn't be that much of a difference to upload a new list using ManageSieve. but you want it to use your *real* address book which is already stored in LDAP or whatever
[09:47:18] <kjetilho> well, s/you/I/ :-)
[09:48:17] <guenther> relative URIs lack context, yes
[09:49:32] <Dave Cridland> Barry like the notion of a magical URI for "Your data".
[09:49:47] <Dave Cridland> Kurt thinks it's all too complex.
[09:50:35] <aaronstone> Kjetil, thanks for putting a giant hole into my "all of this would be canned data stored inside a sieve black box" idea :-P
[09:51:25] <guenther> set baseuri "ldap://ldap.company.com/"
[09:51:53] <Dave Cridland> Pete says "Thou shalt support URIs", but "Thou may support arbitrary tokens".
[09:51:53] <guenther> then use ${baseuri} in the right place...
[09:53:38] <Dave Cridland> And onto ManageSIEVE.
[09:53:40] <guenther> one catch with URIs is that they all have distinct quoting requirements for various fields
[09:54:00] <Dave Cridland> One update since last IETF, mostly bugfixes.
[09:54:16] <Dave Cridland> NOTIFY capability text moved here.
[09:54:28] <Dave Cridland> Open Issues:
[09:54:42] <guenther> given an arbitrary string, generating an LDAP URI that searches for entries that have a particular attribute with that value is non-trivial
[09:54:43] <Dave Cridland> Reference implementation doesn't implement nonsych literals.
[09:55:21] <Dave Cridland> So the spec will be updated to match the real world.
[09:55:23] <Randy> Phil -- you raise a good point about URI syntax rules
[09:55:39] <guenther> have to apply both the LDAP filter escaping *and* the URL escaping
[09:55:48] <guenther> in that order
[09:56:02] <Dave Cridland> Suggestion from Arnt: Remove anonymous script verification mode.
[09:57:08] <Dave Cridland> Kjetil: Means the UA doesn't have to store the password for syntax checking.
[09:58:59] <Dave Cridland> Aaron notes that different users can hav different capabilities granted to them.
[09:59:21] <Dave Cridland> Consensus to remove text.
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[10:01:12] <Dave Cridland> COuld reuse http://www.iana.org/assignments/acap-registrations for response codes
[10:01:38] <Dave Cridland> Milestones.
[10:01:59] <Dave Cridland> And into Other Business:
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[10:02:24] <Dave Cridland> Alexey wants to talk about Sieve interop tomorrow or Wednesday.
[10:02:44] <Dave Cridland> (And Czech beer is good. Formally noted.)
[10:03:03] <kdz> Beer, did someone say beer?
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[10:04:15] <guenther> noon there is 5am MDT
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[10:05:22] <guenther> meeting is dissolved, apparently
[10:05:30] <tonyhansen> we're done
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