IETF
sidr
sidr@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, 30 April 2012< ^ >
melkins has set the subject to: SIDR WG http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/79/agenda/sidr.html
Room Configuration

GMT+0
[12:23:53] alexey.melnikov joins the room
[12:37:07] lepinski joins the room
[12:37:48] alexey.melnikov has set the subject to: SIDR WG Interim http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sidr/trac/wiki/InterimMeeting20120430
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[12:54:24] alexey.melnikov joins the room
[12:54:30] John Scudder joins the room
[12:59:00] Stewart Bryant joins the room
[12:59:21] <Stewart Bryant> Has anyone been able to join on audio yet?
[12:59:31] <lepinski> No, I get a message that the meeting has not started yet
[12:59:42] <Stewart Bryant> Same here
[12:59:48] <lepinski> That is, I believe we are waiting on the Webex host
[12:59:57] <Stewart Bryant> Same here
[13:01:10] <alexey.melnikov> What is the username for the webex?
[13:01:24] <alexey.melnikov> Is it just my email address?
[13:02:49] <Stewart Bryant> Hit the link - use your own name - then it will ask for password restonva
[13:03:20] <Stewart Bryant> That is what I did - as far as I can remember at this time of morning without even a cup or tea yet
[13:03:47] <alexey.melnikov> No, didn't work
[13:04:04] <alexey.melnikov> Unless I am using a wrong link
[13:04:24] <lepinski> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/onstage/g.php?d=649888520&t=a
[13:04:45] <lepinski> This is the link I used, and it seemed to work
[13:04:53] <Stewart Bryant> +!
[13:05:19] <Stewart Bryant> Anyone know Sandy's cell phone number?
[13:05:25] <alexey.melnikov> Oh, I might have been using the one I got as a chair.
[13:05:41] <alexey.melnikov> Hmm, I can check
[13:05:49] <Stewart Bryant> Ah then you should be able to start the meeting
[13:06:14] <John Scudder> Chairs are working on getting logged in as host. You're not missing anything.
[13:06:33] <alexey.melnikov> Thanks
[13:08:30] Karen O'Donoghue joins the room
[13:10:02] Randy Bush joins the room
[13:10:12] smb joins the room
[13:10:24] Rob Austein joins the room
[13:10:34] Wes George joins the room
[13:10:36] <Randy Bush> we will now spend the next hour screwing with webex
[13:11:48] bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net joins the room
[13:15:33] <lepinski> I believe that I successfully dialed in to the webex conference
[13:16:03] chwhite joins the room
[13:16:46] <Stewart Bryant> Same here but as an attendee
[13:17:00] weiler joins the room
[13:17:28] Arturo Servin Ü joins the room
[13:17:56] Scott Brim joins the room
[13:18:56] <lepinski> I hear Chris in Jabber
[13:19:02] <alexey.melnikov> So am I
[13:19:12] <lepinski> err ... Webex, not Jabber
[13:19:44] <Stewart Bryant> I can here on the webex - via integrated voice - but I don't think yopu can hear me
[13:19:53] <Randy Bush> what i want to know is how we plan not to have this farce again in june
[13:21:45] <John Scudder> Apparently Webex doesn't work well when it silently crashes. This is so much fun.
[13:22:13] <Randy Bush> to quote ed "could be worse…i could have flown to dc for this" of course, i did
[13:22:42] <John Scudder> ^
[13:24:06] p.krishnaswamy joins the room
[13:24:10] christopher.morrow joins the room
[13:26:34] Brian Weis joins the room
[13:28:22] <Stewart Bryant> You are running this mtg in a very strage webex mode
[13:29:00] <Stewart Bryant> That works
[13:29:09] <alexey.melnikov> Seems to so far
[13:29:18] asonalker joins the room
[13:29:31] <Stewart Bryant> You are set up to run this mtg parliamentary style - not freeformat
[13:29:37] <lepinski> Is there a way to tell who is speaking?
[13:30:20] Scott Brim leaves the room
[13:32:14] <christopher.morrow> supposedly the webex has a blinky thing near the user... sadly it failed for me (webex client)
[13:32:20] jayb@jabber.org joins the room
[13:32:48] <John Scudder> Since we're running the meeting parliamentary style, can I move we adjourn?
[13:33:28] <p.krishnaswamy> not without hammering on the table and yelling first.
[13:33:44] <John Scudder> don't tempt me
[13:35:09] <lepinski> Other working groups have successfully held virtual interim meetings before, I wonder if someone could write an informational document on "how to run a virtual interim"
[13:35:42] sandy joins the room
[13:35:53] <Stewart Bryant> We run meetings like this all the time in Cisco - but not using this webex mode
[13:35:54] <sandy> the only slides received are the agenda slides.
[13:35:57] <sandy> available at
[13:36:00] <sandy> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/interim/2012/04/30/sidr/proceedings.html
[13:36:05] smb leaves the room
[13:36:09] smb joins the room
[13:36:21] <sandy> if anyone creates slides and can mail them to sidr-chairs, we can upload to the proceedings change.
[13:39:47] <Stewart Bryant> I hear faint audio - should I be hearing anything from the room?
[13:40:00] <weiler> no.
[13:40:12] <weiler> rather, yes, but folks are trying to debug it.
[13:41:46] <christopher.morrow> ideally the room is dialed in (conference call style)
[13:41:58] <christopher.morrow> perhaps the quickest answer here is ... dialin via regular phone.
[13:42:11] <christopher.morrow> did the not-us folks see a 'local' phone number to call ?
[13:42:15] <christopher.morrow> (webex number)
[13:42:53] <Brian Weis> Yes, saw the webex number to dialin, but the audio just moved from phone to integrated audio
[13:43:18] <christopher.morrow> can hear strewart now
[13:43:24] <Brian Weis> OK, now you are back on phone.
[13:43:25] <lepinski> I had previously gotten in through the telephone
[13:44:18] <Brian Weis> I can only hear Steward on the integated audio, not one the phone. Chris' reply is on both.
[13:44:24] <Brian Weis> Get rid of integrated audio
[13:45:45] <lepinski> I just switched from Integrated audio to call-in ... Everything seems the same to me
[13:46:39] <Arturo Servin Ü> same to me
[13:46:49] <Arturo Servin Ü> I dialed in, still muted by host
[13:47:05] <lepinski> I am also "muted by host"
[13:47:38] <Brian Weis> You should be able to un-mute yourself by hitting the mic icon with a slash
[13:47:53] <Arturo Servin Ü> no, I cannot
[13:48:48] <Arturo Servin Ü> It says "yuo have been muted by the host, you cannot unmute yourself"
[13:48:56] <Arturo Servin Ü> now I can, something happened
[13:49:04] <Brian Weis> OK, I guess in this mode it's not possible
[13:49:33] <Arturo Servin Ü> @Brian, something happened, Now I can
[13:49:44] <Brian Weis> Ed fixed it!
[13:49:54] <Wes George> 49 minutes... that has to be some sort of an all-time record
[13:50:12] <Rob Austein> Less than an hour, yes, that is a record
[13:50:22] <Arturo Servin Ü> LOL
[13:55:29] <p.krishnaswamy> sandy is very faint over the integrated and not audible at all on phone
[13:55:40] <John Scudder> because she's not speaking?
[13:58:37] carlos joins the room
[13:58:41] <p.krishnaswamy> she was spkg on integ. but now we get both w echo.
[13:58:43] roque joins the room
[13:59:16] <weiler> Ed, can you start the recording?
[13:59:33] lukekb joins the room
[14:00:07] <weiler> can folks hear brian dickson?
[14:00:11] <weiler> and SMB?
[14:00:19] <carlos> very badly on my end
[14:00:20] <lepinski> I heard Brian and SMB
[14:00:28] <Brian Weis> I hear Brian/SMB OK
[14:00:35] <alexey.melnikov> He should speak up
[14:01:07] <christopher.morrow> and john can be heard?
[14:01:08] <weiler> He's speaking at a reasonably loud volume. this might be a mic/tech issue.
[14:01:21] <lepinski> I am hearing Scudder with no problems
[14:04:57] <Stewart Bryant> I can hear through the integrated audio ok
[14:06:23] weiler leaves the room
[14:06:40] weiler joins the room
[14:07:53] tourist joins the room
[14:10:35] <lepinski> Speakers should probably identify themselves
[14:10:44] <carlos> +1
[14:10:54] <weiler> Brian Dickson and John Scudder.
[14:10:58] <weiler> and Sandy. :-)
[14:11:47] <carlos> yes, but apart from sandy, for obvious reasons, it's hard for me at least distinguishing between male voices over a badly distorted channel
[14:12:09] <John Scudder> randy now speaking
[14:12:11] <weiler> Randy
[14:13:07] <John Scudder> sandy
[14:13:17] <John Scudder> randy
[14:13:21] <John Scudder> anyone want ppt?
[14:13:25] <christopher.morrow> Question about if people understand the prefix-validate logic/processing?
[14:13:32] <christopher.morrow> beuller ? beuller?
[14:14:24] <p.krishnaswamy> send presentation links so can query on net if need be. as sandy said.
[14:14:41] <christopher.morrow> yup, randy's supposedly doing same.
[14:14:45] <p.krishnaswamy> tx.
[14:15:07] <Randy Bush> http://archive.psg.com/120417.sidr-origin.pdf
[14:17:51] <christopher.morrow> rudiger
[14:18:24] <John Scudder> brian dickson
[14:19:21] <John Scudder> randy
[14:20:44] <John Scudder> wes
[14:21:12] <John Scudder> sandy
[14:21:39] <John Scudder> randy
[14:24:07] <carlos> it would be helpful if we could see on screen which point of the agenda we are currently on (even though if we cannot actually follow slides)
[14:24:23] <John Scudder> no slides are being used
[14:24:33] B Bunny joins the room
[14:25:04] <John Scudder> chris/randy
[14:28:33] tourist leaves the room
[14:29:41] <John Scudder> previous was brian d
[14:29:45] <John Scudder> now randy
[14:30:21] <Stewart Bryant> can the person typing please mute
[14:30:46] roque leaves the room
[14:31:10] Roque Gagliano joins the room
[14:31:26] <Rob Austein> We think that's Sandy "Hammerhands" Murphy, who will try to type more quietly
[14:31:39] <lepinski> Just lost audio
[14:31:44] <Stewart Bryant> +1
[14:31:47] <lepinski> ... John was in the middle of saying something important
[14:31:54] <Stewart Bryant> ok its back
[14:31:55] <lepinski> Okay, it's back
[14:32:01] russmundy@jabber.org joins the room
[14:32:02] <lepinski> Can John repeat comment
[14:32:04] <John Scudder> randy
[14:32:09] <John Scudder> i will repeat after randy's spoken
[14:35:30] <Rob Austein> Awesome: WebEx spontaneously reenabled shared desktop for me. Nice keyboard capture attack
[14:35:59] <John Scudder> warren
[14:36:12] <russmundy@jabber.org> which is one of the reasons I want it running on separate machine
[14:36:12] <John Scudder> chris
[14:36:48] <B Bunny> and me.
[14:37:03] <russmundy@jabber.org> Having slides that are essentially jabber scribe is very nice - thanks sandy
[14:37:42] chwhite leaves the room
[14:38:38] B Bunny leaves the room
[14:39:25] <John Scudder> pending topics: confeds, add-path
[14:39:46] <John Scudder> replace-as
[14:39:50] <John Scudder> local-as
[14:40:03] <carlos> what you are doing on powerpoint is extremely helpful, thanks sandy
[14:40:33] <christopher.morrow> roque speaking?
[14:40:35] <christopher.morrow> say again?
[14:40:52] <Roque Gagliano> not trying to talk
[14:40:58] <Roque Gagliano> maybe typing
[14:40:59] <christopher.morrow> ok. mutations problems.
[14:41:02] <Roque Gagliano> muted
[14:41:51] <weiler> surprised to hear almost no input from the phones. do you folks have anything to add?
[14:43:35] dougm.work joins the room
[14:44:24] <Rob Austein> Which Doug M is this who just joined? :)
[14:45:30] <dougm.work> DougM@nist.
[14:47:26] <weiler> Randy speaking.
[14:50:10] <weiler> hBrian Dickson
[14:50:13] <weiler> and John Scudder
[14:52:28] <John Scudder> AS 7007 digression, probably not that important...
[14:52:37] <John Scudder> brian
[14:57:20] <weiler> I agree that Sandy's live notes are very helpful, BUT the desktop sharing isn't working well for me. It may be a screen real estate issue (my screen being smaller than Sandy's) or an OS issue, but the shared desktop jumps around and is generally annoying.
[14:59:32] <christopher.morrow> wes
[15:00:18] <weiler> brian dickson.
[15:06:32] Wes George leaves the room
[15:10:27] <Rob Austein> Chris is talking from back of room. Can folks in net-land still hear him?
[15:11:16] <lepinski> I have been hearing what Chris has been saying
[15:12:03] <alexey.melnikov> Maybe it would be better to take notes in Jabber, instead of WebEx
[15:12:20] <sandy> this is sandy: let me know if capturing discussion in the shared desktop is valuable (if not, maybe some pretty picture to look at)
[15:12:33] <John Scudder> problem with that is the usual: jabber can either be a chat channel, or a minutes channel, but works poorly if you multiplex both
[15:12:34] <carlos> i like the notes on shared desktop
[15:12:48] Wes George joins the room
[15:12:52] <carlos> separating notes from chat is a nice feature
[15:12:53] <alexey.melnikov> Capturing notes is valuable. Not sure about whether WebEx is the best place
[15:13:03] <sandy> to john: yes that's what I was thinking.
[15:13:15] lukekb leaves the room
[15:13:26] <alexey.melnikov> I personally don't mind if they are mixed with the chat
[15:13:28] <lepinski> I like not multiplexing notes and chat
[15:13:42] bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net leaves the room
[15:13:50] <russmundy@jabber.org> I prefer keeping notes & chat separate
[15:14:03] <Rob Austein> We can do multiple jabber rooms if that's what it takes to get a clean notes channel. The question is whether jabber is a better (or at least less bad) notes channel than powerpoint over webex
[15:14:50] <alexey.melnikov> Rob Austein: jabber is certainly less traffic intensive and less demanding on desktops/laptops
[15:15:18] <Rob Austein> Oh, I know which one I would prefer, but some people seem to like this WebEx crud, am trying not to prejudge
[15:15:34] <Rob Austein> Jabber I can do on my phone :)
[15:15:54] <Rob Austein> WebEx also runs on my phone but it's pretty sick if one tries it
[15:18:26] <lepinski> I would have no problem joining a second Jabber channel for a notes feed
[15:18:49] <Rob Austein> Jabber is also a lot easier to set up a robot to capture the session to a file
[15:19:00] <John Scudder> given that taking notes is a thankless chore, I think the answer is the note-taker should use whatever tool s/he likes
[15:19:11] <John Scudder> this is recapitulating a previous fruitless discussion on wg-chairs
[15:19:41] <John Scudder> if there were any more requirements of note-takers than there already are, the likelihood of me volunteering would be asymptotically even closer to zero than it already is
[15:20:44] <lepinski> +1
[15:24:44] <weiler> i also like the idea of jabber notes, and I'm happy to use as many different rooms as needed.
[15:25:43] <weiler> reconvening.
[15:25:52] <weiler> scudder re: confederations.
[15:25:54] <weiler> and Brian.
[15:26:36] <christopher.morrow> sandy
[15:26:46] <christopher.morrow> brian
[15:27:29] chwhite joins the room
[15:28:21] chwhite leaves the room
[15:29:06] <John Scudder> jason
[15:29:38] <John Scudder> brian
[15:30:57] lukekb joins the room
[15:31:10] <christopher.morrow> john
[15:31:16] <christopher.morrow> rob
[15:31:40] <Randy Bush> mary
[15:31:42] <christopher.morrow> warren
[15:31:44] <Randy Bush> stephane
[15:31:50] <christopher.morrow> randy == not helpful
[15:31:54] <christopher.morrow> :)
[15:33:40] <Stewart Bryant> Note to Sandy - it's really hard to hear this - it's even harder when you type
[15:34:13] <John Scudder> sandy is not very near a mic so I doubt you're hearing her kbd
[15:34:15] <christopher.morrow> err, is her mic not muted?
[15:34:33] <christopher.morrow> (jumping onto the call to listen)
[15:34:39] <Stewart Bryant> Who knows
[15:34:57] <christopher.morrow> uhm I don't hear typing... now. from me nor sandy.
[15:35:13] <christopher.morrow> coloring on board has commenced
[15:35:15] <lepinski> I am not present locally, but I still think it would good for folks to use the white-board when it is appropriate
[15:35:22] <p.krishnaswamy> camera?
[15:35:23] <Stewart Bryant> Who is typing now?
[15:35:38] <christopher.morrow> didn't see someone ... let's induce sandy to type.
[15:35:59] <christopher.morrow> she's tping now.
[15:36:08] <christopher.morrow> did you hear that stewart?
[15:37:09] <John Scudder> diagram is minimal:
[15:37:15] <christopher.morrow> coming
[15:37:21] <John Scudder> origin — X — RS (with pcount = 0) — Y — Z
[15:38:02] alexey.melnikov leaves the room
[15:38:53] <dougm.work> While not verifiable 2+ hops away, you could require that neighbors MUST configure that a peer is a RS.
[15:39:02] <John Scudder> already in the spec
[15:39:31] adrianfarrel joins the room
[15:40:34] bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net joins the room
[15:40:35] bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net leaves the room
[15:41:13] bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net joins the room
[15:41:15] alexey.melnikov joins the room
[15:41:30] bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net leaves the room
[15:44:44] <John Scudder> jason
[15:45:07] <christopher.morrow> http://www.flickr.com/photos/uucmorrow/6982525508/in/photostream - pict from whiteboard, sadly less than properly focused.
[15:46:44] <dougm.work> MUST explicitly configure, seems more explicit than the "SHOULD drop if unexpected" that is in the spec.
[15:47:16] <weiler> someone's typing is very loud
[15:47:38] <adrianfarrel> 'tis Sandra
[15:47:44] <lepinski> Concensus in Paris seemed to be to deep 6 the AS Path
[15:48:02] <adrianfarrel> @christopher.morrowGood job with whiteboard photo
[15:48:15] <christopher.morrow> I'll see if she's muted. I don't hearing the typing :(
[15:48:29] <weiler> yep, it's sandy
[15:49:06] <christopher.morrow> ah, I do hear it... yes.
[15:49:08] <christopher.morrow> sec
[15:50:40] <christopher.morrow> she's apparently muted, perhaps it's the room-mic picking her up, she's going to type mor quietly.
[15:51:10] bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net joins the room
[15:51:13] bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net leaves the room
[15:51:17] <christopher.morrow> warren
[15:51:17] <John Scudder> warren
[15:51:48] <weiler> chris: I do not believe. it's just too loud....
[15:52:20] <John Scudder> can the meeting organizer mute all (other than the meeting room) and see if it helps? Ed?
[15:53:27] <christopher.morrow> tiny pict coming
[15:53:31] <John Scudder> randy referring to trivial hub-and-scope pic
[15:55:54] <christopher.morrow> http://www.flickr.com/photos/uucmorrow/7128656905/in/photostream/ - hub/spoke pix
[15:56:06] <christopher.morrow> better focus even.
[15:56:13] <lepinski> Thanks Chris
[15:56:35] <christopher.morrow> right stub as handing to right customer, route from left customer.
[15:58:18] <John Scudder> brian
[15:58:35] Roque Gagliano leaves the room
[16:08:40] <p.krishnaswamy> what is the cbgp referred to on the slide Sandy is typing?
[16:08:48] <John Scudder> heather
[16:09:05] <Wes George> confed bgp
[16:09:15] <p.krishnaswamy> thx
[16:09:45] <christopher.morrow> going to head to lunch in 5... (mins) for 1hr (I believe).
[16:09:47] lukekb leaves the room
[16:09:48] <christopher.morrow> lunch now.
[16:09:56] <christopher.morrow> we'll mute the conf and unmute when back.
[16:09:57] Karen O'Donoghue leaves the room
[16:10:48] <Arturo Servin Ü> ok
[16:11:53] <Stewart Bryant> What time is the restart?
[16:13:45] <sandy> one hour sorta
[16:14:13] <adrianfarrel> So, 13.15 east Coast?
[16:16:31] smb leaves the room
[16:16:52] carlos leaves the room
[16:40:18] Brian Weis leaves the room
[16:40:43] Brian Weis joins the room
[16:42:29] jayb@jabber.org is now known as Jay Borkenhagen
[16:42:32] bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net joins the room
[16:58:50] lukekb joins the room
[17:00:31] <alexey.melnikov> I might be disappearing to go home soon.
[17:02:19] <Rob Austein> We're in danger of starting in seven minutes, says Sandy
[17:03:44] Karen O'Donoghue joins the room
[17:04:08] B Bunny joins the room
[17:07:00] <John Scudder> Started. Brian writing on whiteboard.
[17:07:25] <John Scudder> board says:
[17:07:37] <John Scudder> ? crypto ? (bgp sec entropy) vs shared-secret?
[17:07:42] <John Scudder> sic
[17:09:53] Geoff Huston joins the room
[17:13:23] <Brian Weis> I'm not getting audio through the phone … is anyone else?
[17:13:32] <Wes George> one moment
[17:13:42] <Rob Austein> Reconvening
[17:13:42] <Brian Weis> Thanks!
[17:13:44] <russmundy@jabber.org> you're back
[17:14:16] <weiler> we noticed.
[17:16:31] mike joins the room
[17:19:56] <asonalker> Sriram speaking ...
[17:20:55] carlos joins the room
[17:21:34] <asonalker> john scudder and warren talking now..
[17:22:00] <asonalker> Rob Austein talking
[17:22:50] <weiler> observation: the "integrated" audio, which is terrible and includes sandy's typing, has been dropping out entirely from time to time. leaving and rejoining works.
[17:23:03] <asonalker> Rob Austein <--> John Scudder <--> Warren K
[17:23:10] <Geoff Huston> +1
[17:23:12] <asonalker> Sriram talking now
[17:23:22] <Geoff Huston> the audio sucks with the typing
[17:24:43] <asonalker> Randy bush speaking
[17:25:00] <Geoff Huston> inaudibly
[17:25:48] <weiler> geoff: can you hear through the telecon (not the integrated audio)?
[17:26:21] <sandy> I tried muting myself in webex and people lost audio. i musted my headset and left it plugged in - but maybe that enables the builtin mike.
[17:26:45] <sandy> i can try muting myself in webex again and see if anyone again loses audio.
[17:26:53] <sandy> trying experiment now. report loss of audio.
[17:27:08] <asonalker> Randy B <-->John Scudder <--> Warren talking
[17:27:20] <B Bunny> on my box, WebEx does strange things w/ choice of audio devices. It was pushing audio out through built-in while taking audio IN through a USB device.
[17:27:28] <asonalker> Sandra Murphy speaking
[17:27:36] <Stewart Bryant> I think we just lost room audio
[17:27:41] B Bunny leaves the room
[17:27:42] <p.krishnaswamy> webex audio is best left off both for input/output. Phone line sounds best.
[17:27:44] <alexey.melnikov> No audio
[17:27:45] <John Scudder> can others confirm?
[17:27:52] <Geoff Huston> wow - my shared screen went all yellow
[17:27:53] <John Scudder> others hear room yes/no?
[17:27:54] <Stewart Bryant> yes - I also lost
[17:27:56] <p.krishnaswamy> have audio on 'regular phone'
[17:27:56] <russmundy@jabber.org> I have it on the telecon
[17:28:01] <weiler> other see yellow, too.
[17:28:04] <carlos> no audio on integrated conf
[17:28:04] <Geoff Huston> and silence completely from the audio
[17:28:06] <asonalker> Webex is muted
[17:28:10] <carlos> yep
[17:28:13] <alexey.melnikov> I need to leave now. Bye
[17:28:20] <sandy> webex is reported to no longer have audio.
[17:28:33] <Rob Austein> Bye, Alexey
[17:28:33] alexey.melnikov leaves the room
[17:28:34] <sandy> so I can mute myself and people dial in to telecon
[17:28:45] <Stewart Bryant> looks like it
[17:28:53] <sandy> or I can unmute myself and people deal with typing and I will try to type soft.
[17:28:55] <sandy> which?
[17:28:59] <Geoff Huston> I was hoping to avoid a toll call to the US
[17:29:09] <Stewart Bryant> Well we need the audio
[17:29:28] <christopher.morrow> geoff, gtalk call?
[17:29:32] smb joins the room
[17:29:33] <John Scudder> please dial the bridge if you need the audio. your toll call is cheaper than your air ticket that you saved.
[17:29:44] <Stewart Bryant> I can here
[17:29:46] <lepinski> I can hear sandy on PSTN
[17:29:46] <Geoff Huston> audible
[17:29:48] <Rob Austein> Sandy unmuted
[17:29:53] <carlos> loud and clear on integrated conf
[17:31:04] <christopher.morrow> are there not local-to-geoff/stewart/etc webex numbers for this??
[17:31:15] <John Scudder> 1. is "rewind"
[17:31:24] <John Scudder> 2. is "flag in sig attr"
[17:31:25] <Geoff Huston> If there are its not telling me what they might be
[17:31:30] <John Scudder> 3 is "child-of-as_path"
[17:31:34] <lepinski> Warren would rather slit his wrists than do what?
[17:32:02] <christopher.morrow> lepinksi: talk about getting an as-path back into the announcement.
[17:33:19] <christopher.morrow> I have a bt-confbridge... I could distribute local-dial-in + bridge that to the webex :(
[17:33:33] <christopher.morrow> I can try that at the next break.
[17:34:09] <lepinski> Just lost PSTN audio
[17:34:17] <russmundy@jabber.org> +1
[17:34:19] <John Scudder> 4. on board is "explicit just-entered-confed marker"
[17:34:21] <Rob Austein> For future meeting reference: I have generally seen this sort of thing work better if one outsources the voice channel to a company that does that for a living, ie, a phone company.
[17:34:36] <Rob Austein> Use WebEx if one must for shared desktop, but stop trying to pretend WebEx is a voice channel
[17:34:49] <christopher.morrow> oh... hrm, yes. I can re-dial the bidge, second.
[17:35:06] <dougm.work> when ASPATH doesn't match PATH SIG, PATHSIG is invalid, no different than if SKI doesn't point to correct AS .... we already deal with the same problem.
[17:35:19] <asonalker> warren speaking
[17:35:23] <russmundy@jabber.org> hearing some audio but very weak
[17:35:26] <p.krishnaswamy> distant sounding audio back on 'phone line' telecon
[17:35:33] <p.krishnaswamy> now audio ok.
[17:35:45] <sandy> oops audio telecon phone call dropped
[17:35:54] <dougm.work> sounds of chris dialing are coming over phone???
[17:36:11] <russmundy@jabber.org> sounds fine now
[17:36:17] <Wes George> not over phone. coming over someone's open PC mic
[17:36:22] <christopher.morrow> I was/am dialed oin seperately.
[17:36:28] <Wes George> oh, that'd do it too
[17:36:42] <christopher.morrow> was trying to monitor that the audio bridge was actually working.
[17:38:05] <christopher.morrow> matt
[17:38:59] <John Scudder> wes
[17:40:13] <christopher.morrow> is 'local dial' helpful? should I attempt the conference call with conference call? :)
[17:40:29] <christopher.morrow> http://www.btconferencing.com/globalaccess/?bid=280 - is the BT local conference numbers...
[17:40:44] <Geoff Huston> helpful
[17:41:11] <Geoff Huston> is this up or are you proposing to get this up?
[17:41:27] <christopher.morrow> k, I'll turn up a bridge there, in 1 min. second.
[17:42:22] <christopher.morrow> code: 72302489
[17:42:33] <christopher.morrow> global-dialins at link above.
[17:44:02] <Brian Weis> Whenever I've setup WebEx there is the choice of allowing local numbers around the world, which avoids having to use a BT link. I'll bet the IETF WebEx includes that. You should look into that for the next SIDR meeting.
[17:44:19] <Wes George> ++
[17:44:30] <Wes George> clearly IETF needs a recipe-style "how to use Webex"
[17:44:50] <Brian Weis> Echo! Echo!
[17:44:56] <russmundy@jabber.org> terrible echo on tecon
[17:44:57] <dougm.work> more reverb
[17:45:00] <Rob Austein> Well that worked. Not.
[17:45:10] <christopher.morrow> people on/hearing at all?
[17:45:16] <sandy> I do not recall such a feature in the ietf web ex page. (not all webex features available). messages from webex mention only the us telecon.
[17:45:32] <Geoff Huston> truying now
[17:45:32] <christopher.morrow> geoff, please try the alternate call, if you'd like.
[17:45:36] <mike> +1 original web ex phone working
[17:45:39] <sandy> i'll ask the secretariat for assistance.
[17:45:44] <christopher.morrow> thnx
[17:46:14] <christopher.morrow> k
[17:46:20] <christopher.morrow> we joined the forces of 2 calls together!
[17:46:41] <Geoff Huston> WORKS!
[17:46:44] <Geoff Huston> thanks
[17:46:44] <weiler> the Meetecho folks would say "use me"....
[17:46:54] <Wes George> and it worked about like matter + antimatter
[17:46:57] <Wes George> ;-)
[17:47:00] <Rob Austein> Cool
[17:54:37] <lepinski> Yes, please don't put this in the core spec
[17:55:48] <Geoff Huston> agreed
[17:55:54] <Geoff Huston> (with Matt)
[17:56:24] <Randy Bush> anybody care to send text, he said lazily?
[17:58:47] <Geoff Huston> that would imply that if you have a private AS and a Private TA then ALL the Internet needs that private TA
[17:58:53] <Geoff Huston> this does not scale as far as I can see
[17:59:12] <Rob Austein> Right, that's why this stuff can't escape into the public again
[17:59:18] <Rob Austein> We're walking through it slowly
[17:59:31] <Geoff Huston> ok - thanks RobA
[18:01:31] <John Scudder> jason
[18:02:16] <Geoff Huston> but if you re-orighinate then the prefix holder needs to have foreknowledge of the re-origination to generate the appropriate crypto.
[18:02:26] <John Scudder> of course
[18:04:06] <asonalker> Ruediger speaking on phone...
[18:04:09] <Geoff Huston> frankly, the rule that "everyone should use a public AS in a public AS path" is pretty clean
[18:06:03] <Geoff Huston> http://www.cidr-report.org/as2.0/ - sacroll down to "Possible Bogus ASs"
[18:08:19] <Geoff Huston> you could generate a public private key pair for each private AS and publish the private ASes - that would allow anyone to use the private AS and add the correct crypto
[18:09:22] <Geoff Huston> i.e. make the private AS universally useable and becuase you have published the private keys of these private ASes they can be used in public AS paths and validated by others
[18:10:38] <Rob Austein> At which point everybody adds hacks to block (not believe) signatures from any of those ASs, I suspect.
[18:10:56] <Geoff Huston> true - but thats ok
[18:10:57] <Rob Austein> I think if they want to upgrade to BGPSEC they should get a real AS
[18:11:02] <Geoff Huston> precisely
[18:11:28] <Geoff Huston> but they can use a cheapo private AS in which case others lose trust when they use it in a public context
[18:11:30] <p.krishnaswamy> if pvt key is published can't that allow questionable attestations ?
[18:11:45] <Geoff Huston> using private ASes is questionable in the first place
[18:12:03] <Rob Austein> Ah, you're just trying to save them the bother of running their own internal TA. Not sure why they'd bother with BGPSEC at all if anybody could forge, but whatever
[18:12:14] <Geoff Huston> its like a
[18:12:19] <Geoff Huston> "wildcard AS"
[18:13:10] <Rob Austein> But it's fake security so for consistency in our estimation of their resources we should assume they're running on old crap routers and that they should strip BGPSEC and save the crypto cost :)
[18:13:10] <p.krishnaswamy> thought practice wd mean dropping announces w pvt AS just like 1918 addresses
[18:13:41] <Geoff Huston> no - there is no BGP-Spec requirement to drop a AS Path with a private AS
[18:14:00] <Geoff Huston> but once you add a private AS into the AS Path you lose verifiability of the AS Path
[18:14:30] <Geoff Huston> because there is no 1:1 association of a private AS with a point in the inter-AS topology
[18:15:07] <Rob Austein> Separate realm. Identifiers in private realm not meaningful in public or other private realm except by private treaty
[18:15:59] <Geoff Huston> I believe that is what I'm saying in any case - i.e. IF you use them in the public realm then at that point you cannot validate the result
[18:16:05] <p.krishnaswamy> i get that (no 1:1 assocn.) - just didnt realise that what to filter and what not, or when to drop a path, had to be referenced (or not) in a spec for operators to treat it a specific way
[18:16:15] <p.krishnaswamy> thankyou btw. for explns.
[18:17:32] <Geoff Huston> Frankly if the technology needs to bend the RIR AS number allocation policies, then the RIR policies should be able to change to meet the requirements of the techjnology
[18:18:24] <Geoff Huston> If the RIR AS policies are stop[ping wise sane technology from happening than I think that we change the allocation policies
[18:18:40] <John Scudder> ^ exactly
[18:19:30] <Rob Austein> Sure. Dunno how much of this is "oh crap I need another AS to do this and it's 3am and I need it done by morning". Not a lot, I hope, but suspect there are cases. They should get over it, of course.
[18:19:57] <Geoff Huston> you want crypto AND sub-second fast?
[18:20:03] <Geoff Huston> jeez!
[18:20:06] <Geoff Huston> :-)
[18:20:28] <Geoff Huston> no brian - we can change the RIR policies
[18:20:40] <Geoff Huston> we CAN fix the RIR policies
[18:21:08] <Randy Bush> fixing rirs for fun a profit. do you want fries with that?
[18:21:48] Randy Bush leaves the room
[18:22:01] Randy Bush joins the room
[18:22:02] <Rob Austein> "There might be 50 ways to leave your lover, but there are 300 ways to screw yourself with BGP"
[18:26:22] <christopher.morrow> oops, chris, randy, rob, now brian
[18:27:14] <christopher.morrow> randy
[18:29:23] dougm.work leaves the room
[18:29:46] <christopher.morrow> brian and john talking.
[18:31:02] <Geoff Huston> what are you trying to protect from in iBGP
[18:31:15] D Duck joins the room
[18:31:17] <Geoff Huston> or this this a case of saying "I am going to protect the AS Path in iBGP becuase...."
[18:31:21] <John Scudder> MITM in the fiber path, apparently
[18:31:28] <Geoff Huston> I don;t understand the threat
[18:31:34] <John Scudder> I am not convinced it's real
[18:31:41] <Geoff Huston> so trying to say "this is the solution" is kinda wierd"
[18:31:46] <John Scudder> quite
[18:35:54] <weiler> Russ Housley just walked in. He's wearing a suit.
[18:36:04] <Geoff Huston> If the threat is transport level threat then transport level security would conventionally be the answer
[18:36:40] <Rob Austein> I suspect we are not going to close this today. Draft describing use case and threat model?
[18:37:36] <Geoff Huston> I don;t buy Brian's answer - transport security within an AS is incremental and easy
[18:37:55] <Geoff Huston> You can'r perform microsurgery with a mallet
[18:38:04] <Geoff Huston> A mallet is useful, but only for certain tasks.
[18:38:21] <Geoff Huston> i.e. BGPSEC is NOT a universal solution
[18:38:31] <weiler> likewise trying to drive a nail with a scalpel.
[18:40:12] <Randy Bush> or drive a nail with a red herring
[18:41:04] <Geoff Huston> oh the image in my head of burly fishermen armed with … herrings! Thank you SIDR for another unique moment!
[18:41:05] <John Scudder> chop down the mightiest tree in the forest with a signed bgpsec object
[18:42:29] <Rob Austein> serrated signed object please
[18:43:38] <John Scudder> also, bring me a shrubbery
[18:44:20] <D Duck> a European shrubbery or an African shrubbery?
[18:44:34] <Rob Austein> I don't know that
[18:44:36] <John Scudder> I don't know! Aaaaaaaugh.
[18:45:28] <D Duck> sorry, a European serrated shrubbery or an African serrated shrubbery?
[18:45:41] D Duck leaves the room
[18:45:56] <John Scudder> I think D Duck just fell off the bridge of death
[18:49:17] <Geoff Huston> I like Warrne's approach in this case
[18:49:33] <Geoff Huston> sorry, Warren
[18:49:37] <Geoff Huston> I'm sold
[18:51:06] <Geoff Huston> Let the jabber log know it was WARREN's ugly solution
[18:51:17] <Geoff Huston> :-)
[18:51:41] B Bunny joins the room
[18:52:22] <Rob Austein> s/<anonymous>/<person-embarrassed-to-have-his-or-her-name-appear-on-a-slide-this-sick>/g
[18:54:20] B Bunny leaves the room
[18:54:44] <Geoff Huston> Brian needs to go back to Steve Kent's original protocol analysis to see why certain attributes and messages have crypto protection and why others do not
[18:54:59] bugsb joins the room
[18:55:00] <John Scudder> shall I echo to mic?
[18:55:07] <Geoff Huston> yes please
[18:59:23] <Geoff Huston> a broadcast message to everyone else that says "generate refresh queries to the repositories" is a great DOS attack
[18:59:56] <Geoff Huston> can you REFINE the hint to specific prefixes/ ASES?
[19:00:32] <Geoff Huston> I.E. refresh me - here is the old public key, signed by the new key
[19:01:50] <Geoff Huston> its still a DOS attack, but a more focussed attack
[19:04:29] <Stewart Bryant> lost audio again
[19:04:35] <carlos> yup
[19:04:39] <Arturo Servin Ü> =(
[19:04:51] <lepinski> I still have audio over PSTN
[19:04:58] <weiler> we also lostwebex screen sharing...
[19:05:04] <Wes George> ack, working on it
[19:05:10] <weiler> Ed?
[19:05:27] <Arturo Servin Ü> back!
[19:05:30] <Arturo Servin Ü> thanx
[19:05:37] <sandy> ok sorry got complaint about typing noise. choice is "webex audio works/ typing is noisy" or "laptop gets muted and so does webex" vote was for webex audio
[19:05:38] <adrianfarrel> majik
[19:05:48] lukekb leaves the room
[19:05:58] <Geoff Huston> Chris' phone bridge is still working
[19:05:59] <weiler> BREAK!
[19:06:51] smb leaves the room
[19:10:18] <christopher.morrow> sandys version of audio should be working again.
[19:10:20] <christopher.morrow> I tihnk
[19:10:29] dougm.work joins the room
[19:11:58] <sandy> ok, so technology glitch fixed - i am now host again and not muted so those listening in webex can hear
[19:12:20] <sandy> again, i will ask secretariat if there is a way to mute me and keep webex audio going.
[19:12:28] <sandy> seems an odd shared state
[19:14:26] <Stewart Bryant> Sandy - you are running this in conf mode - and in a conf the host mutes so that can confer on how to proceed
[19:14:53] <Stewart Bryant> Muting halts proceedings which is normally what is needed in that mode
[19:15:03] <christopher.morrow> k
[19:15:40] <Stewart Bryant> You have just thrown everyone off the conf
[19:15:56] <Stewart Bryant> no audio
[19:16:03] <adrianfarrel> "Your host has stopped the Integrated Voice Conference."
[19:16:24] <Stewart Bryant> OK that is better
[19:16:25] <adrianfarrel> Truly a miracle!
[19:16:31] <sandy> i restarted.
[19:16:32] <adrianfarrel> You restarted it
[19:16:44] <adrianfarrel> We are now happily listening to you type again
[19:17:31] <adrianfarrel> If you could type with a different pressure on each key, we could listen to what you type and work it out without having to read the screen
[19:18:22] <sandy> tryign "end conference" was suggested as a way to take just me out of the integrated conference call. that did not work so restarted.
[19:18:42] <sandy> chris tried muting a laptop joined to the integrated conference call.
[19:19:19] <sandy> if typing noise is better but people can still hear, please let us know and we'll remember the solution.
[19:21:02] <sandy> dang. popup says automatic reconnection did not work, did i I want to try again. i said yes, please report if you are not seeing or hearing.
[19:21:36] <sandy> (actually the laptop joined to the conference seems to be seeign the shared workspace, so hopefullly that is working)
[19:23:30] Randy Bush leaves the room
[19:30:04] <p.krishnaswamy> is the meeting still on break?
[19:30:13] <bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net> yes
[19:30:22] <bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net> about to start back up
[19:31:33] <christopher.morrow> coming back now.
[19:33:37] lukekb joins the room
[19:34:30] <Geoff Huston> why not put the CRL into a BGP update?
[19:34:48] <weiler> because it may not propagate as far as it needs to?
[19:35:00] <christopher.morrow> is the webex audio ok again? (btw)
[19:35:02] <weiler> if we had a robust flooding protocol....
[19:35:21] <sandy> again a popup about not reconnecting and trying again. report problems
[19:40:10] <weiler> Can we use ACAP notifications (CONTEXTs) for this?
[19:40:17] <weiler> it's such a bad idea.
[19:42:03] <russmundy@jabber.org> can only hear a little of that rob is saying
[19:43:24] <weiler> Russ, are you on the call or on the integrated audio?
[19:43:33] <russmundy@jabber.org> telecon
[19:43:41] <russmundy@jabber.org> rob is stronger now
[19:57:20] <Geoff Huston> waking up now
[19:57:23] <Rob Austein> Geoff still with us
[19:58:11] carlos leaves the room
[20:00:09] <p.krishnaswamy> what is the make before break terminology referring to?
[20:00:19] <Rob Austein> Add new route before killing old one
[20:00:28] <Rob Austein> killing running routes by accident considered bad idea :)
[20:00:51] <dougm.work> implicit withdraw?
[20:01:00] <Rob Austein> ?
[20:01:26] <Rob Austein> make before break: authorize the new route, wait for transition and all stable with new route, then withdraw authorization for old
[20:01:27] <p.krishnaswamy> ahh thanks.wasnt sure if it meant access rpki before not accessing it or something
[20:06:31] <p.krishnaswamy> what is 'size of routing system' here--no of routes in non default table?
[20:07:40] <John Scudder> that seems to be the definition in use, yes
[20:12:26] <christopher.morrow> p.krishnaswamy: yes, 'what is the size of the DFZ'
[20:28:50] <lepinski> I hope no one is suggesting that people are rolling keys on a regular and frequent basis, that seems bad
[20:29:13] <lepinski> ... Rolling in response to events like Brian was suggesting seems like the right model
[20:32:35] <Stewart Bryant> If you go for a Sunday you must get WG consensus (on the list)
[20:33:20] <Stewart Bryant> All these days need to be a list discussion
[20:33:32] <lepinski> What date was the message that Sandy mentioned that listed future meeting dates?
[20:33:48] <Stewart Bryant> Tks
[20:34:17] <John Scudder> Stewart: yes the preceding conversation was much to that effect
[20:36:52] bradd@jabber.gin.ntt.net leaves the room
[20:36:57] John Scudder leaves the room
[20:37:01] lepinski leaves the room
[20:37:04] <adrianfarrel> Thanks. Can I have dinner now?
[20:37:05] <christopher.morrow> RIPE 65 will take place from 24-28 September 2012 in the Okura hotel in Amsterdam.
[20:37:07] <christopher.morrow> yes, dinner!
[20:37:15] <christopher.morrow> feel free to take the rest of the day off adrian.
[20:37:15] mike leaves the room
[20:37:17] Jay Borkenhagen leaves the room: offline
[20:37:24] <Geoff Huston> bye
[20:37:27] <adrianfarrel> Thanks, but I have some work to do as well
[20:37:31] <christopher.morrow> everyone else out.
[20:37:32] <christopher.morrow> ha
[20:37:38] <adrianfarrel> Geoff is off to have breakfast ;-)
[20:37:45] <Geoff Huston> yep
[20:37:50] <Geoff Huston> finally see daylight outside
[20:37:57] russmundy@jabber.org leaves the room
[20:38:10] <Geoff Huston> thanks for the bridge Chris - worked great
[20:38:11] lukekb leaves the room
[20:38:12] <Rob Austein> Good morning, Geoff, and thanks
[20:38:26] sandy leaves the room
[20:38:27] bugsb leaves the room
[20:38:43] Geoff Huston leaves the room
[20:38:48] Wes George leaves the room
[20:39:09] Brian Weis leaves the room
[20:39:17] p.krishnaswamy leaves the room
[20:39:18] Karen O'Donoghue leaves the room
[20:39:20] Rob Austein leaves the room
[20:39:21] adrianfarrel leaves the room
[20:39:27] <christopher.morrow> ed?
[20:39:36] weiler leaves the room
[20:39:58] christopher.morrow leaves the room
[20:40:45] Stewart Bryant leaves the room
[20:40:50] sandy joins the room
[20:41:45] dougm.work leaves the room
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[21:00:13] Arturo Servin Ü leaves the room
[21:21:38] Arturo Servin Ü joins the room
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[22:00:28] Stewart Bryant joins the room
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