IETF
SHMOO
shmoo@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, March 24, 2022< ^ >
alexamirante has set the subject to: IETF 112
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[13:29:46] <Robert Sparks_web_583> shmoo fu
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[13:30:11] <Robert Sparks_web_583> (has no bar)
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[13:30:26] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> shmooting
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[13:31:15] <mnot> note: it is Friday
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[13:33:14] <Robert Sparks_web_583> @meetecho - lars is really faint
[13:33:21] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> Lars: you're very soft at the chair mic
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[13:35:23] <Lars Eggert_web_459> ok. just don't do anything that requires me to say something :-)
[13:35:54] <Meetecho> :D
[13:36:12] <Sean Turner_web_712> you are actually ahead ;)
[13:36:41] <Meetecho> Lars, can you speak a bit closer to the mic later? That may help
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[13:38:23] <Lars Eggert_web_459> will do
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[13:41:38] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_982> This is in the charter: "The cadence of meeting scheduling and the mix of in-person versus fully
online meetings going forward once the disruptions caused by the pandemic
have subsided."
[13:42:01] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_982> this was mostly meant to address the question about how many plenary meetings we want but it could be interpreted differently
[13:42:41] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> I think calendar cadence is different than choosing the daily schedule.
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[13:44:24] <npd> having read over this doc (and trying to learn how to schedule better), I definitely think there are some tooling improvements that could be useful
[13:44:50] <npd> like asking for different kinds of conflicts, general time zone, ongoing conflicts vs one-off conflicts, etc.
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[13:47:36] <Pete Resnick_web_622> So my name was invoked as I walked in. Anything I have to worry about?
[13:47:44] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> That draft is here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-shmoo-async/
[13:48:11] <Sean Turner_web_712> @pete - nice shoes ;)
[13:48:21] <Pete Resnick_web_622> heh
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[13:49:55] <Sean Turner_web_712> It's Weird Al I-D: eat the time zone, eat the time zone ...
[13:51:03] <Pete Resnick_web_622> The kind of poll I actually like.
[13:52:16] <Pete Resnick_web_622> Is it unfair that I raised my hand simply to avoid having it come back to GenDispatch?
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[13:52:27] <Sean Turner_web_712> no
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[13:52:31] <Pete Resnick_web_622> :)
[13:52:42] <mnot> Thanks. Going to bed now.
[13:52:49] <Pete Resnick_web_622> Goodnight
[13:53:16] <Sean Turner_web_712> No idea what time it is there. is it even still today?
[13:53:21] <Jim Fenton_web_374> I'm hearing a little distortion on voice peaks. Are others hearing that, or is that a local problem for me?
[13:53:22] <mnot> it's Friday
[13:53:28] <mnot> almost 1am
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[13:53:41] <Sean Turner_web_712> shots of mezcal and then bed
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[13:54:11] <Meetecho> We sent someone to the room to tune the in-room mixer
[13:54:20] <John C Klensin> @Jim:  I think it is probably local.  Seems ok here -- or I've just gotten used to the distortions.
[13:54:21] <Jim Fenton_web_374> thanks!
[13:54:45] <npd> this is a good question, and I think it's a clear answer: no, we can't continue with business as usual
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[13:57:12] <Lars Eggert_web_459> regarding mnot's document, in my reading of the proposed new charter it would be in scope under bullet item 1 w/o the need of additional charter changes (convince me otherwise :-)
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[13:57:27] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> i'm with you, lars
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[13:57:34] <Sean Turner_web_712> if don't work on blockchain then ... :)
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[13:58:19] <npd> I didn't hear a suggestion that talking about travel emissions meant that we could not also discuss emissions of other sources/projects
[13:59:07] <npd> +1, I would be interested in either a research group or working group on that topic
[14:00:18] <Stephen McQuistin_web_892> was an interesting talk about this aspect at gaia this week: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-gaia-the-internet-and-environmental-sustainability-revolutionary-00
[14:00:58] <Sean Turner_web_712> Maybe we can ISOC to do matching carbon offsets ;)
[14:01:08] <npd> (I don't think it's "small fish", and I don't think buying offsets from your airline is necessarily an effective response)
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[14:01:39] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> @Richard, this was Rolf's draft that I remembered
[14:01:42] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-winter-energy-efficient-internet-01
[14:01:57] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> GAIA's networks in many ways are more ecologically/environmentally sustainable
[14:02:09] <Sean Turner_web_712> @npd: I do not know one way or the other either
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[14:04:47] <Jim Fenton_web_374> plant more trees perhaps?
[14:07:12] <Robert Sparks_web_583> obligatory color accessibility complaint goes here
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[14:08:53] <Jim Fenton_web_374> I must have missed something: what is 'not-arrived'?
[14:09:06] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> Registered by didn't attend?
[14:09:30] <Jim Fenton_web_374> makes sense
[14:10:21] <npd> that confusion with the graph is likely: since the remote emissions are hypothetical, rather than actual, people will misunderstand
[14:10:29] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> @npd: yes
[14:10:40] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> I got confused too until Daniel explained
[14:10:56] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> Maybe throw it on top and say "emissions saved by remote participants"
[14:11:30] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> but that gets into Richard's comments
[14:11:46] <Jim Fenton_web_374> Trying to understand what that map of IETF CO2 vs per capita means
[14:11:48] <Stephen McQuistin_web_892> yes, separating out remote participants is especially important for evaluating hybrid meetings
[14:11:55] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> as to what are the emissions of the remote participation
[14:12:22] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> I'm lost
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[14:13:07] <npd> @jim, I believe the map is just showing the per-capita emissions of people living in those countries. traveling to N number of IETF meetings generates that level of emissions (in addition to all the emissions from other activities in our lives)
[14:13:08] <Robert Sparks_web_583> I'm sill uncomfortable with the way the emission per participant is calculated - as I understand it from previous conversations, it's using the airline industries rule of thumb for cost of a flight built by total-emission/number-passengers over a large period of time.
[14:13:46] <Robert Sparks_web_583> Applying that to any subset of travelers by n-travelers * that-metric makes assumptions that worry me alot.
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[14:14:18] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> Better
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[14:14:53] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> :thumbsup:
[14:15:23] <npd> I think Daniel has tried to give us more detail (in that github code) that isn't just per participant, but based on some likely flight paths from home country to the meeting country
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[14:16:56] <Robert Sparks_web_583> yes but I still don't see (and I think it matters) accounting for the probability that all the passengers on those likely paths end up on the same plane vs some spread of 1-n planes for the meeting.
[14:17:53] <John C Klensin> @Robert: not the only thing that confuses me/ makes me uncomfortable about this, but yet.   I believe that holding three meetings a year generates more CO2 than one, but find most of the statistical estimates dubious... and comparisons with people living in assorted places unhelpful
[14:18:21] <npd> Robert, is your thinking that decreasing our flights won't decrease the number of airplanes traveling anyway?
[14:19:01] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> @robert: it's my assumption that the airline industry has been asked to produce these figures with these considerations for the express purpose of encouraging calculations/projections/offsets such as those Daniel is making.
[14:19:10] <Robert Sparks_web_583> If that's all you want to say, just say that.
[14:19:28] <John C Klensin> @npd: I was thinking more about the other side of that: if we had three people sitting on the same plane, it doesn't generate three times the emissions.
[14:19:38] <Jim Fenton_web_374> Note that the scale at the bottom of this slide is logarithmic
[14:20:55] <Robert Sparks_web_583> @mallory - that's exactly my discomfort. I'm not yet convinced the metric is being used correctly.
[14:21:24] <npd> systemic analysis has shown that airplane travel has a disproportionately large emissions impact, which is why it will need to be considered for all meetings (not just ietf meetings)
[14:21:50] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> @robert my worry is that we have to trust airline produced statistics which might themselves be dubious, so not Daniel's fault.
[14:22:12] <Robert Sparks_web_583> I mean, sure, less travel is good for reducing co2, but if we're going to try to use a model to find a point of optimization, we better be sure the model is actually good
[14:22:38] <Robert Sparks_web_583> yes, I see that concern too, and agree.
[14:22:50] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> since the airline industry is in charge of these stats, if anything they have an incentive to make the problem look less dire than it is, no? the risk is not on the other side here.
[14:23:05] <npd> @john, I think calculated emissions are per passenger, not for an entire flight. so 100 people on a flight, it's generally attributed 1 per cent to each passenger
[14:23:38] <Sean Turner_web_712> +1 to Lars
[14:23:44] <Jim Fenton_web_374> Should we also consider the effect that IETF standards has on travel more generally (perhaps causing less travel)?
[14:24:26] <Jim Fenton_web_374> (not saying that's my viewpoint BTW, just raising the issue)
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[14:25:02] <John C Klensin> @npd: but that is exactly one of the things that makes those statistics dubious, because if that plane has 200 seats and 100 passengers, those empty seats have nearly the same carbon impact as the full one.
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[14:25:51] <npd> @john, absolutely, calculations of carbon emissions need to include how full flights are (that's also applied to trains, buses, cars, etc.)
[14:26:45] <Jim Fenton_web_374> @john Airlines have a strong financial incentive to keep load factors uniform (and high) so perhaps load factors can be assumed to be constant
[14:27:00] <John C Klensin> @Jim, a variation on that came up earlier in the week, perhaps in DISPATCH, about trying to reduce emissions from IETF protocols.  More cynically, one has to wonder about  carbon impact of ranting and emissions of hot air from people's mouths :-(
[14:27:25] <npd> would people support a collective effort? or just want to wait for a collective effort before we do anything ourselves?
[14:27:30] <Lars Eggert_web_459> that's not what martin said
[14:28:12] <John C Klensin> I'm in favor of this type of work, but, if decisions are going to be made on the basis of statistics, those statistics should be real.  And it is really important to look at whole systems
[14:28:31] <Lars Eggert_web_459> @jorge, now that is an impressive setup!
[14:28:42] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_982> on a high level, less travel is less co2. What we really need to make sure that we have good remote participation, so people have a choice if the want to travel or not.
[14:29:00] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_982> Still note that remote meetings also have some co2 emission
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[14:29:33] <John C Klensin> @Mirja: exactly
[14:29:43] <Jim Fenton_web_374> +1 Mirja. I think IETF (and honestly Meetecho) is providing a positive example on how to run hybrid meetings
[14:29:46] <Jay Daley_web_989> The discussion is covering a couple of elements of my presentation,  It might be useful to pause, have my presentation and then resume the queue
[14:29:54] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_656> @mirja. correct. also, co-locating of event venues in time/space is already happening to some extent - reducing the excess emissions somewhat
[14:30:06] <Robert Sparks_web_583> LU2AQO?
[14:30:13] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> :thumbsup:
[14:30:13] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_982> +1 to take Jay's talk first
[14:30:23] <Robert Sparks_web_583> AE5LL
[14:30:30] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> yes LU2AQO when I was in Argentina
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[14:30:52] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> now San Antonio, TX, no radio, wife will kick me out of the house if I do HAM oeprations
[14:30:56] <Oliver Borchert_web_457> My mic should work now
[14:31:01] <Robert Sparks_web_583> heh
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[14:31:14] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> Please go next Oliver
[14:31:31] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_219> I prefer one in-person meeting a year with a lot of participants than three sparsely attended meetings.
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[14:32:19] <Jim Fenton_web_374> 1 in-person meeting/year means that the siting of that meeting is a more impactful decision.
[14:32:25] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_219> The carbon emissions issue is important but the first question we should ask is whether one or three meetings work best for us. Because if the answer is one is better, no need to ask about the emissions.
[14:32:43] <Brian Trammell_web_381> once we get to the point at which remote infra CO2 is significant, and are making choices of e.g. which cloud infra to stick meetecho processing in based on the CO2 emissions of each provider, that would be a significant win over the pre-2019 landscape...
[14:33:17] <Barry Leiba_web_593> Robert and Jorge: I'm N3BL, but also no radio.
[14:33:28] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> +1 Brian (Hi!!)
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[14:33:47] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> QSL
[14:33:47] <Jim Fenton_web_374> And I'm K1JH, currently VHF only but in the market to buy an HF radio
[14:33:53] <Brian Trammell_web_381> (hi suresh!!)
[14:34:00] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> go SDR Jim
[14:34:11] <Jim Fenton_web_374> Definitely
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[14:34:46] <Brian Trammell_web_381> Phillip has a point but I'm not optimistic that we will achieve consensus on meeting frequency
[14:34:53] <Brian Trammell_web_381> would love to be proved wrong on that though
[14:35:04] <npd> I'm not sure it will be easy to choose a location based on all participants to decrease emissions, because it's possible that choosing the location will also determine which participants travel to it
[14:35:15] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> reduce the speed of your modem :grinning:
[14:35:23] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> jk
[14:35:27] <Brian Trammell_web_381> nth order CO2: gas used to bake your own cookies
[14:35:47] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_656> Well, asia locations seem to be not viable in the immediate future... keep that slot as fully remote...
[14:36:37] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> agreed
[14:37:08] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> another factor is, don't select exotic places where travel and lodging is more expensive
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[14:37:37] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_982> I think people are quite keen at this point to meet in person again but over the longer term, we actually might see changes in behaviour by individual decisions
[14:38:00] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> Fully support an all-hands effort to defeat cryptocurrency for the sake of earth
[14:38:18] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> Agreed, keeping it hybrid has many benefits
[14:38:28] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_656> +1 ted
[14:38:29] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> the question is how much hybrid?>
[14:38:31] <Brian Trammell_web_381> +many ted and mallory
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[14:38:51] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> if only it were in scope
[14:39:23] <Brian Trammell_web_381> "is the IETF morally obligated to use routing-plane modifications to shut down PoW blockchains" might require a recharter for shmoo to consider though
[14:39:48] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> just so happens we are rechartering :)
[14:39:59] <Brian Trammell_web_381> well let me put myself in queue then :D
[14:40:19] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> @Mallory: write a cryptocurrency-die-die-die draft :)
[14:40:41] <Brian Trammell_web_381> draft-ietf-shmoo-active-carbon-offsets-winkwink
[14:40:51] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> now i'll have to sit on my hands not to.
[14:41:01] <Sean Turner_web_712> How much does a side meetings you score the win at count? Less or more?
[14:41:12] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> :)
[14:41:18] <npd> "what really makes a difference" always seems to be someone else reducing emissions, rather than us. :shrug:
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[14:42:33] <Lars Eggert_web_459> can we get to jay? before we're burned out on the topic
[14:42:42] <Pete Resnick_web_622> The room enjoyed that last part.
[14:43:08] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_219> @pete, I thought the might
[14:43:20] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> While I agree with Ted that we are probably negligible in the grand scheme of things
[14:43:47] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> I believe in doing whatever we can do
[14:43:58] <Brian Trammell_web_381> being negligible in the grand scheme of things is not a justification for doing nothing
[14:44:06] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> Yep Brian
[14:44:06] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_219> @npd, someone else doing the reductions does not necessarily mean someone else paying the costs.
[14:44:17] <Brian Trammell_web_381> reductio ad absurdum: the earth is negligible in the grand scheme of things. :)
[14:44:27] <Oliver Borchert_web_457> Thanks Daniel for your work.
[14:44:36] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> @Brian: Watching Wall-E lately?
[14:44:43] <Jonathan Reed_web_857> +1 Thank you Daniel
[14:45:00] <Brian Trammell_web_381> no but good suggestion
[14:45:09] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> +1 Thanks for doing this work Daniel
[14:45:37] <Pete Resnick_web_622> @brian: If the number really were as big as Ted stated (0.1°C impact), that wouldn't be negligible. :)
[14:47:00] <Robert Sparks_web_583> nudge jay closer to the mic?
[14:47:17] <npd> that's a common argument about decreasing aviation emissions: aviation emissions are a small fraction compared to the total (only 4%). but of course per person emissions they're enormous, they're only 4% because most people aren't yet rich enough to travel internationally regularly.
[14:47:17] <Pete Resnick_web_622> Either way, measuring the downside of fewer meetings (in some interesting comparable way) is going to be hard.
[14:47:19] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> Thanks Lars!
[14:47:26] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> Better
[14:48:14] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> Is there any publication with that information ?
[14:48:18] <Barry Leiba_web_593> Why would one's flight class matter?
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[14:48:40] <Pete Resnick_web_622> @Barry: Efficient use of space and resources on the plane.
[14:48:42] <Stephen McQuistin_web_892> lower passenger density in first/business
[14:48:44] <npd> @Barry, first class seats take up more room on the plane, and so the emissions are shared by fewer people
[14:49:01] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> and costs more
[14:49:15] <Barry Leiba_web_593> Yes, but half the people on the planes I'm on are in biz/first because of upgrades.  So it shouldn't matter.
[14:49:26] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> then your emissions are more expensive
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[14:50:07] <Lars Eggert_web_459> what matters is how much space you take up on the plane, not what you paid to do so
[14:50:34] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> not what you paid, how much it costs
[14:51:06] <Lars Eggert_web_459> ah. yes. sorry for misunderstanding that part
[14:51:08] <Barry Leiba_web_593> The plane has those seats whether I'm in them or not.  Unless we're saying that if we don't fly biz class, the airlines will remove those seats and replace them with more economy ones?
[14:51:47] <Pete Resnick_web_622> @Barry: Correct.
[14:51:52] <npd> @barry, right, if fewer people pay for first class seats, then airlines have reason to replace those with economy seats
[14:51:53] <Lars Eggert_web_459> yes, that's the assumption (less demand -> less supply)
[14:51:54] <Brian Trammell_web_381> ...indeed i have a whole pechakucha on that topic...
[14:51:57] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> that could help to put more packets on the pipe
[14:52:07] <Barry Leiba_web_593> (United is actually going in the other direction: having *fewer* economy seats.)
[14:52:40] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> I think they should have EP electric planes
[14:53:12] <Barry Leiba_web_593> Elon Musk should work on Tesla jet engines.....
[14:53:26] <Barry Leiba_web_593> ...with solar charging.
[14:53:29] <Pete Resnick_web_622> @Barry: If you don't fly, someone else is likely to fill your seat if you're the only one in the world doesn't fly. You can't base the measurement strictly on how much you, personally, use.
[14:53:31] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_168> energy density is not allowing electric long distance planes (or hydrogen planes)
[14:53:38] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> When Starship is ready we can jump on it
[14:53:51] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> co2 vs rare metal mining
[14:54:15] <Brian Trammell_web_381> ...if we added an event to nuke bitcoin, we could be a net benefit...
[14:54:15] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_168> the energy consumptio of P2P starship is about 5-8x higher than plane travel...
[14:54:22] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @mallory right
[14:54:38] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> SpaceX has a contract from the military to evaluate using Starship to move assets from A to B
[14:54:50] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_168> (but CH4 is easiert created from CO2 than higher-order hydrocarbons needed for Jet A1)
[14:55:29] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> we are doing some
[14:55:37] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> R&D about it around here
[14:56:10] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_168> @jorge: interesting. allowed to share more details?
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[14:57:31] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> sure I will get in touch and send you some
[14:57:40] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> sent you a Lin connection request
[14:57:44] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> It is good to have this discussion on carbon emissions
[14:58:16] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> In America no one cares
[14:58:20] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> here is one reference
https://www.expressnews.com/business/local/article/San-Antonio-company-working-with-military-SpaceX-15635566.php
[14:58:35] <Pete Resnick_web_622> +1 to Martin regarding not needing prior consensus. Decisions the LLC makes with any of our funds (which hotels to use, what to spend on tooling, etc.) need to be reviewable, but the LLC is designed to be able to make these decisions without direct community input. This is just another thing that the LLC can do so long as the actions are reviewable, IMO.
[14:58:58] <Brian Trammell_web_381> +1 fwiw
[14:59:01] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> I'm somehow associated with the XArc people but on another plane (non-profit, education)
[14:59:24] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> I really appreciate learning more about this work, Jay, and having the opportunity to encourage it.
[14:59:47] <Daniel Migault_web_325> +1 to PEter.
[14:59:58] <Pete Resnick_web_622> I'll repeat at the mic.
[15:00:22] <Jim Fenton_web_374> I wonder how many onsite attendees combine IETF travel with family vacations, and whether that reduces impact somewhat.
[15:00:45] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> my wife will kill me if I do that
[15:01:29] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> +1 lars
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[15:01:41] <Jim Fenton_web_374> really? She doesn't like IETF venues or doesn't like IETF people?
[15:01:46] <npd> @jim, it does, and I've tried to combine travel for that purpose in the past. but also most of us rich people will need to reduce our leisure international travel as well (whether or not we have accepted that yet)
[15:02:04] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> @jim not a net geek
[15:02:11] <Jim Fenton_web_374> @npd Yes we do.
[15:02:19] <Suresh Krishnan_web_355> +1 Pete. This is what I meant by consultation
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[15:03:23] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> It would certainly produce helpful guidance for participants as per my previous suggestion.
[15:03:28] <Jim Fenton_web_374> @jorge My wife isn't a net geek either, but usually finds interesting things to do at IETF venues. We also travel in the area adjacent to the meetings.
[15:03:31] Ching-Heng Ku_web_399 leaves the room
[15:03:38] <Pete Resnick_web_622> This is Martin, who didn't say that he was Martin. :-)
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[15:03:42] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> @jim she will say something like "you spent all time in the computer and you plan to spend our vacations on a room full of people that spend all their time on computers"
[15:04:00] <Jim Fenton_web_374> :)
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[15:04:55] <Jorge Amodio_web_757> @jim but it happen in the past when I had to meeting I grabbed the family for some quality time after the meetings
[15:04:57] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_168> combine in space, not necessarily in time ;)
[15:05:32] <Sean Turner_web_712> thanks for that check MartinD :)
[15:09:21] <npd> is there an interest in some carbon emissions RG / WG for IETF more generally?
[15:09:29] Barry Leiba_web_593 leaves the room
[15:09:46] <Mallory Knodel_web_259> certainly
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[15:09:50] <Pete Resnick_web_622> Cheers!
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[15:09:56] <npd> or maybe we should look for mailing lists or coordination across other standards bodies too
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