Friday, November 12, 2021< ^ >
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[11:36:52] alexamirante has set the subject to: IETF 112
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[11:57:32] <Andrew Campling_web_273> Hi everyone, how is it the last day already?  And we've beaten the chairs to the first group of the day! ;-)
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[11:58:14] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Hi there, this time it was relatively light to me, but the last day a bit more charged.  How about y our last day of the mtg?
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[11:59:20] <Andrew Campling_web_273> Still DNSOP and DNSSD to come after this for me
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[12:00:05] <Andrew Campling_web_273> There have been some very good wg discussions this week, although I really hope we can do something in person for 113  
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[12:00:46] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> to me, it's a bit different than the other times when the last day of the mtg was very light; in f2f it was only the morning.
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[12:01:24] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> For the in-person part there are so many things to say, not sure where to start :-)
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[12:01:43] <Jonathan Reed_web_423> The big win for a virtual meeting is that Friday sessions don't suffer from everyone running to the airport.
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[12:02:12] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> I will be going to bed early though, in an attempt to drag back into the timezone for next week
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[12:03:49] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> I can take notes, but would love help
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[12:04:12] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> I'm multitasking so it's a bit hard to guarantee, but I can help partly
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[12:06:55] <Andrew Campling_web_273> On the remote tech requirements, hasn't that been met by Meetecho?  Possibly Gather (or equivalent) needs more work though
[12:07:00] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> "The big win for a virtual meeting is that Friday sessions don't suffer from everyone running to the airport." - I agree.
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[12:07:34] <Martin Duke_web_172> I just uploaded slides for our talk -- please accept them
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[12:08:35] <Martin Duke_web_172> the sense on the show of hands draft was that it didn't need to be an RFC
[12:08:37] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> "Possibly Gather (or equivalent) needs more work though" - that is what I am curious.  Someone said the remote experience will be great, or something like that.  Then someone else referred to an example of an Internet governance meeting which itself talks about 3D online mtg.  In that context I dont know what to expect.
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[12:09:57] <npd> +1, I'm not sure we've figured out the tools or the practices for gather/social meetings
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[12:10:02] <Barry Leiba_web_506> Maybe if slides were uploaded BEFORE the meeting we wouldn't have that problem?
[12:10:08] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> tools need more work but the team work on tools are constantly improving (based on experience and community feedback) and it doesn't seem we need to write down requirements in an RFC
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[12:10:24] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> Mirja +1
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[12:10:34] <Lou Berger_web_480>
[12:10:36] <Andrew Campling_web_273> @Alexandre I mentioned the hybrid format that is to be used for IGF in Poland next month.  I'll be attending in-person so can give feedback afterwards on how it worked from that perspective, no doubt others will be joining remotely and will be able to do likewise
[12:10:36] <npd> these are the slides?
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[12:10:57] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> sorry slides were ready last week already but the uploading slipped though :-(
[12:11:10] <Andrew Campling_web_273> yep
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[12:11:12] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> yes can see
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[12:12:18] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632> No worries Martin and Mirja. I stopped monitoring email when the meeting started. Glad that Mallory caught it.
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[12:12:51] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> " I'll be attending in-person [IGF]" - I am shying away from feeding back to high level mtgs organizers such as COP or GXX, but I cant stop from having thoughts about it: look at the mtg before _and_ after.
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[12:16:33] <Ted Lemon_web_777> I don't actually know how to read that chart.
[12:16:34] <mcr> adopt!
[12:16:41] <npd> does the current 112 meeting fall into one of those recommended timeslots?
[12:16:44] <Ted Lemon_web_777> (But this sounds like a good idea generally)
[12:16:46] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> Mirja was speaking
[12:16:48] <mcr> @npd, alas, no.
[12:16:49] <Vasilis_web_541> Where can I find Martin's slides?
[12:16:52] <Jonathan Reed_web_423> @martin I heard Mirja
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[12:17:22] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> Martin, maybe check your audio output please
[12:17:35] <Lou Berger_web_480> @mic like this in general for online only, what are your thoughts on hybrid timing?
[12:17:36] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632> @Vasilis
[12:17:38] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632>
[12:17:51] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> I hear well Martin
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[12:17:54] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632> We can hear you
[12:17:55] <Ted Lemon_web_777> We hear you.
[12:17:56] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Do youhear people?
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[12:17:59] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> We can hear you, Martin. But others are talking and you can't hear us :)
[12:18:00] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632> and We can hear Mirja too
[12:18:51] <Lou Berger_web_480> maybe it should be given 113
[12:19:05] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632> Mirja is going to speak now
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[12:19:19] <Vasilis_web_541> @Suresh Thank you!
[12:19:45] <Dhruv Dhody_web_487> Just a Nit: India time zone calculation seems to be off (UTC+5:30), that should land us in half hour
[12:20:17] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Simple question, not sure whether I should go to mic about it: is the 4 slot direction considered?
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[12:20:28] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632> Please go ahead Alex
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[12:21:01] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632> We can hear you
[12:21:05] <npd> do we want more specific data to cite in the draft on attendance by region in the virtual meetings?
[12:21:26] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> 4 timeslots per day
[12:21:33] <npd> I had put together something from ietfdata, which Alissa had presented earlier, but I haven't re-run it with the most recent virtual meetings.
[12:21:37] <Andrew Campling_web_273> Rotating between 4 virtual locations?
[12:21:39] <Dhruv Dhody_web_487> 4 IETF meetings per year?
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[12:21:59] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> yes 4
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[12:22:07] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> 4 what?
[12:22:15] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> 3 mtgs per year
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[12:22:48] <Lars Eggert_web_192> what's the 4th time zone range?
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[12:23:07] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632> @npd: I think that would be useful
[12:23:13] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> Not sure that NZ and India are going to agree on being in the same slot.
[12:23:39] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> At 7.5 hours apart.
[12:24:04] <Andrew Campling_web_273> You could alternate between, say, India and Japan for AP on 1 + 1 + * cycle
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[12:24:33] <Christian Hopps_web_501> I think alternating the asia TZ is a good compromise
[12:26:18] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> "what's the 4th time zone range?" - The Asia has 2 continent-sized regions in it, whereas Europe and NA are relatively similar.
[12:26:33] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Asia is made of Central Asia and Eastern Asia.
[12:27:59] <npd> is India ending up with two painful meetings per cycle because of the width of the Asian slot?
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[12:28:49] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> "is India ending up with two painful meetings per cycle because of the width of the Asian slot?" - I think yes.  I think India would benefit if there were 4 instead of 3 timeslots.
[12:29:22] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> I think everyone would benefit if there were 4 instead of 3 timeslots.
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[12:29:47] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> 4 slots, 5 hours apart each?
[12:29:57] <mcr> The trick for more equity is to get more people to live in the middle of the Pacific Ocean :-)
[12:30:02] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> there's a clear dead-time (sorry Hawaii)
[12:30:05] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> approximately ues 4 slots 5 hours apart
[12:30:12] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> (yes not ues)
[12:30:21] <Andrew Campling_web_273> I think the issue here is that there is no perfect solution
[12:30:31] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Indeed there is no perfect solution.
[12:30:33] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> 7pm -1am isn't that bad
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[12:30:47] <Pete Resnick_web_745> @Alexandre: I think if you created a similar chart with 4 slots instead of 3, that would help us see the results.
[12:31:01] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Unless where you are is India
[12:31:20] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> PEte I can try to create a similar chart with 4 slots instead of 3.
[12:31:30] <Pete Resnick_web_745> Excellent.
[12:31:44] <Andrew Campling_web_273> Hopefully we won't need to use this anyway if we move to hybrid and then in-person
[12:32:06] <Dhruv Dhody_web_487> @bron with the sample of 1, I agree it isnt that bad!
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[12:32:43] <Ted Lemon_web_777> We're not hearing folks from India complaining loudly about this—are there in fact folks in India in the meeting?
[12:32:58] <Pete Resnick_web_745> Gather used as the "home base" for the meeting and going into the "doors" into meetecho has been very effective for me.
[12:33:05] <Dhruv Dhody_web_487> (hands up)
[12:33:10] <Ted Lemon_web_777> :)
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[12:33:42] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> The table displayed in the presentation is also in the draft?
[12:33:54] <Martin Duke_web_726> there were three tables
[12:34:04] <Martin Duke_web_726> the one that shows all the time zones is not
[12:34:37] <Christian Hopps_web_501> +1 hour break leaves time to grab food
[12:34:41] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632> @Pete: Nice idea!
[12:35:00] <Christian Hopps_web_501> not sure if this was just said but mayb 15m break + 1h break
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[12:35:17] <npd> I almost wonder if it would have helped me if I was *expected* to attend at least one social session, or if you were assigned to one of the slots just as a prompt
[12:35:25] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> 2 15 minute breaks and 1 1h break might work better?
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[12:35:38] <avri doria_web_539> an hour break at night is good for naps. do it frequently.
[12:35:39] <Martin Duke_web_726> hmm
[12:35:41] <Christian Hopps_web_501> only 3 slots though right?
[12:35:41] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> I got some good "hallway" discussions this time
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[12:35:47] <Andrew Campling_web_273> Good point on 30 minute breaks being insufficient to encourage use of gather (but when it's not taking place in your local time zone 30 minutes is probably too long!)
[12:35:54] <Charles Eckel_web_718> We could try adding social time at the start and end of each day, outside of the 6 hours
[12:36:03] <Dhruv Dhody_web_487> 1 hr meeting break could lead to side meeting getting booked there -- which i hope is avoided
[12:36:20] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> I'm not gonna stay at either end unless it's during a nice part of the day
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[12:36:28] <Christian Hopps_web_501> I know I took 1 hour breaks regardless b/c I needed to eat :)
[12:36:47] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> @Bron, presumably one end is always nice, no?
[12:37:09] <Simon Hicks_web_361> It's always difficult.  For those of us in the GMT/UTC zone 1200-1400 is basically lunchtime, but of course it is a meeting slot here
[12:37:23] <Suresh Krishnan_web_632> @Dhruv: Nice point. Maybe we can do 45 minutes like ATM :-)
[12:37:35] <Lou Berger_web_480> I'd take lunch time over 0200
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[12:37:51] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> Or you can be in two sessions like I am right now :p  Harder in real life
[12:37:53] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> @pete that suggestion was made before and it would be an unnecessary and confusing speed bump for newcomers or day-passers
[12:37:53] <Dhruv Dhody_web_487> 45 min is a sweet spot
[12:38:00] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> Embedding MeetEcho into GatherTown.
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[12:38:28] <npd> for me the agenda page has been the home base, if that web page had people around, I might have text or audio chatted
[12:38:50] <Oliver Borchert_web_853> Other conferences did exactly that, Gather was the conference room and one had to enter rooms to join the sessions. Was pretty good.
[12:39:02] <Jay Daley_web_618> I don't know what happened to that either - it was on the list
[12:39:03] <Vittorio Bertola_web_245> EuroDIG's feedback on forcing people to go through Gather to get into meeting rooms (which they actually did) was "50% liked it and 50% totally hated it".
[12:39:34] <Oliver Borchert_web_853> We used gather for Hackathon and it was excellent.
[12:39:43] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_527> I am not sure how long Gather is going to be here. It is a pretty obvious takeover target for 'Meta'
[12:39:59] <Simon Hicks_web_361> bit like people who sit at the back and those who go for the front
[12:40:35] <Jay Daley_web_618> We are not planning to make Gather the only way to get to a session
[12:41:06] <Pete Resnick_web_745> @Mallory: Yeah, it is a tricky tooling problem. But it is a question of what kind of interactions we are optimizing for.
[12:41:17] <npd> +1 for hub meetings! a good step to the hybrid
[12:41:19] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> EuroDIG?  (Digital?)
[12:41:23] <Lou Berger_web_480> +1
[12:41:47] <Pete Resnick_web_745> I'm told Boston's hub experience has been very good.
[12:41:49] <Andrew Campling_web_273> EuroDIG is IGF for Europe
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[12:42:07] <npd> the pandemic maybe wasn't ideal for trying out the local hub thing, because regional travel and gatherings were limited as well as long-distance travel
[12:42:16] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> We had one in DC last nigh.
[12:42:51] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> A 'hub' meeting?  Sounds like a 'hybrid' meeting but not sure it's the same.
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[12:42:53] <John C Klensin> We have tried some local meetings and they are very helpful in getting people together and talking.  But a large meeting as a cluster of local meetings is _really_ hard to operate and coordinate.  As just one example, think about inter- and intra-meeting mic queus.
[12:42:54] <Vasilis_web_541> Hub meetings may suffer from network connectivity, and a good internet connection is not always a given.
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[12:43:13] <Dhruv Dhody_web_487> We did hubs in Bangalore/India as well many years ago, more successful were the RFCsWeLove meetups in between IETF :)
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[12:43:45] <Lou Berger_web_480> @mallory was that announced? (I'm in DC and didn't know about it)
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[12:44:04] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> the other issue is that many working groups are widely distributed, so the local areas - if they start becoming the primary work place for a working group, would be more exclusionary to people who aren't in that locale
[12:44:07] <mcr> @Dhruv, step up to the mic?
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[12:44:13] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_527> The hubs filled a very different need.
[12:44:32] <Vasilis_web_541> Also audio configuration (microphones) on the same space can be a challenge.
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[12:45:13] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> @lou it was very informal but nice. would have been great to be able to organize these things so that folks don't miss out
[12:45:17] <Pete Resnick_web_745> Yeah, I tried to make it not about the tooling, but about the structure. But it's hard not to conflate.
[12:45:30] <Lou Berger_web_480> @mallory -- gotcha
[12:45:45] <John C Klensin> @Ted: exactly
[12:46:03] <Lou Berger_web_480> +1 to ted's comment re work/ietf ballancee
[12:46:08] <Christian Hopps_web_501> Ted yes, and my IETF experience has seriously suffered as a result.
[12:46:25] <Pete Resnick_web_745> @Ted: Exactly right. I've actually had an easier time making it more like an IETF meeting when the time zone is "bad" for me.
[12:46:33] <Christian Hopps_web_501> and I hear this echo'd by a lot of people as well as seeing reduced work getting done in my WG and others.
[12:46:38] <npd> maybe we need to provide .ics files for attendees so that everyone's calendar is blocked for the entire week
[12:46:52] <mcr> @npd, that's already a thing.
[12:46:57] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> I got a LITTLE bit of it in gather
[12:46:58] <Lou Berger_web_480> how would ics help
[12:46:59] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Pete, if there were 4 timezones instead of 3 then none of them would be as 'bad' as one of them is now.
[12:47:21] <Andrew Campling_web_273> The problem with remote socialisation is that we're all in different time zones, have other things to do inc sleep which make this hard
[12:47:24] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> +1 to jabber
[12:47:26] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> @Alexandre how does that work?
[12:47:35] <Lou Berger_web_480> we had the ahllway jabber room at one point
[12:47:39] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> someone's still gonna get all night
[12:47:41] <Christian Hopps_web_501> @npd it's not a tooling problem its a human problem. It's hard to explain to a customer you can't meet with them when your right there, whereas saying "I'm on a different continent" is an easy sell
[12:47:44] <mcr>   green is the schedule I care about, blue are the things I've blocked into my calendar that I'm doing.
[12:47:47] <Pete Resnick_web_745> This meeting (6am to noon) is sufficiently "bad" to still let me treat this as a week-long meeting.
[12:47:53] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> "@Alexandre how does that work?" - I'd have to draw a table :-)
[12:47:54] <Jay Daley_web_618> I think people want to speak sometimes rather than type and see faces.
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[12:48:19] <npd> I downloaded a nice customized .ics file that only had the WG meetings i was planning on attending, but I didn't add an .ics for the whole week that signaled to my co-workers that I was really gone
[12:48:56] <npd> @christian I agree that it's a human problem! just was thinking about some ways to nudge or prompt about a full-week total sense, so that maybe people would be more likely to try socializing
[12:49:17] <Suresh Krishnan_web_963> Ted you are welcome to write a draft
[12:49:28] <Christian Hopps_web_501> it can work in limited sense if you have buy-in from everyone, but even then they might say they understand, but they really dont
[12:49:30] <Suresh Krishnan_web_963> Yes please andrew
[12:50:06] <mcr> @npd, that's a problem with the calendaring programs. You want to subscribe to a public calendar, and then indicate which you are going to.  That's what my calendar shows.
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[12:50:22] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> I have also one thing about why we cant socialiwe remotely: it is the eye contact.  The tools do not allow us to have eye contact.  There are some tools that try to,though.
[12:50:23] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> Drinking beer at 06:00am is probably not good for you.
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[12:51:09] <Pete Resnick_web_745> @Andrew: I agree that "trying to replicate" should not be the goal. But "structure to provide socialization" is a good goal.
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[12:51:14] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Wow, I totally don't agree with that.
[12:51:21] <npd> "dumbed down experience"?
[12:51:33] <mcr> Drinking beer at 6am, at the end of your day, totally makes sense. Ask any German :-)
[12:51:36] <Pete Resnick_web_745> @Ted: Which don't you agree with?
[12:51:42] <Ted Lemon_web_777> The time zone thing.
[12:51:46] <Christian Hopps_web_501> Huh I totally agree with what he just said.. reword "dumbed down" to "reduced functionality"
[12:52:06] <Ted Lemon_web_777> What he's really proposing is that we go back to remote participants being second-class citizens, which I think is the exact opposite of what we should be doing.
[12:52:23] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> I think if the in-person experience is at an awkward or limited time then there will be lots of unofficial side meetings / massive hallway track and will probably limit remote participation even more.
[12:52:24] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Of course, we have to account for timing of meal service—we can't have a 6am start because nobody will get breakfast.
[12:52:38] <npd> +1 Ted, we should take advantage of the situation and not go back to second-class-ness
[12:52:50] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Oh, yes, we might need to go back to a longer day.
[12:52:51] <Christian Hopps_web_501> If anything has been proven from this pandemic is that remote meetings will never be as effective as in person IMO. Switching to some hybrid which just subtracts from the positives of th ein person meeting makes no sense to me.
[12:52:52] <Charles Eckel_web_718> We seem to have drifted from the draft to a discussion of hybrid meetings
[12:52:54] <Ted Lemon_web_777> I don't really object to that.
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[12:53:19] <mcr> @Ted, I think that we could get breakfast moved slightly if we occupy most of the hotel, but yeah, that's one of the problems.
[12:53:32] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> I'm also in Poland next month.
[12:53:37] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> "We seem to have drifted from the draft to a discussion of hybrid meetings" - I think the question of in-personness is so fundamental that it cant be answered in a non-consense way.
[12:53:39] <Pete Resnick_web_745> @Ted: I'd be willing to help and/or co-author the "structure/tools" draft you mentioned you might take on.
[12:53:44] <Ted Lemon_web_777> What's happening in Poland?
[12:53:51] <Richard Barnes_web_636> sounds like IGF
[12:53:52] <Pete Resnick_web_745> IGF
[12:53:57] <avri doria_web_539> i will be in Poland as well for IGF
[12:53:58] <mcr> (what isn't happening in Poland. sigh.)
[12:54:16] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> "i will be in Poland as well for IGF"  -check maps too, various maps.
[12:54:17] <Christian Hopps_web_501> In any case I don't even see a big win for disadvantaging the in person meeting, one group will be in the evening and one group will continue to be in the pain zone.
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[12:54:53] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Agreeing with Mirja—in person is worth doing even if there's some awkwardness to the timing.
[12:54:59] <Richard Barnes_web_636> i would be in favor of compromising in person some (e.g., using only afternoon hours) to make things more friendly for remote
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[12:55:23] <Lou Berger_web_480> the single mic queue would be very nice
[12:55:26] <Jay Daley_web_618> We are planning a single mic queue for hybrid meetings - part of the plans we consulted on
[12:55:29] <Vittorio Bertola_web_245> It's fine to optimize, but disadvantaging the in-person meeting for the sake of it makes things worse for everyone and for the organization in general.
[12:55:30] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_527> There are a lot of modalities in Jackbox games that might be useful to examine.
[12:55:36] <mcr> @Richard would you be willing to start at 6am in-person as well?
[12:55:37] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Single mic queue is a really good improvement.
[12:55:43] <Pete Resnick_web_745> IGF is a very differently structured experience. Not clear that it will give us too much insight.
[12:55:57] <Lou Berger_web_480> @mcr I would ;-)
[12:56:01] <Richard Barnes_web_636> @mcr personally, yes
[12:56:15] <Christian Hopps_web_501> FWIW I already start before 6am so *shrug* but if 1/2 the people I normally interact with will be sleeping or 1/2 present then it's a total lose
[12:56:41] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Well, but most of the people who come to IETF are coming from a different time zone, so I don't think this is a very big problem.
[12:56:56] <npd> I'm not sure that having everyone on a laptop in the meeting room would actually be "disadvantaging" the in-person attendees. it might actually work well, -- and it reminds me of the actual experience when I attended in person -- and they'll continue to have the advantages of in person gathering
[12:56:56] <Ted Lemon_web_777> You're getting up at a weird time (or going to bed at a weird time) anyway.
[12:57:09] <Pete Resnick_web_745> The traditional reason for not starting earlier in person is because the leadership often used the early morning for meetings, so you'd be asking for them to move stuff around.
[12:57:13] <Christian Hopps_web_501> well but being "in the zone" is part of the benefit of in person, right?
[12:57:35] <Christian Hopps_web_501> sure some people will take a full week to adjust, but not most people :)
[12:57:43] <Richard Barnes_web_636> @Pete i don't feel bad about asking people to reschedule meetings.
[12:57:45] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Sure, but if "the zone" is when everybody is up, it doesn't matter so much if it's 9am or noon or 6am.
[12:57:51] <mcr> is pretty good for Hackathon.
[12:58:10] <Pete Resnick_web_745> @rlb: Not saying it would be a bad thing; just another item to deal with.
[12:58:28] <Christian Hopps_web_501> I think the lunch and dinner hours of th elocallity hav ean external influence though.
[12:58:45] <Charles Eckel_web_718> @mcr, I think we will continue to gather to help with Hackathon teams with mix of in person and remote participants
[12:59:03] <Christian Hopps_web_501> although if we coudl arrange for dinner at the very start of the dinner hour before restaurants fill up maybe that would be a + )
[12:59:11] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> It is the first time I hear about 'hub' meetings, it would be great to have it defined on paper, if it is not already in a draft in which case I have to read it.
[12:59:53] <Christian Hopps_web_501> so amybe 6am works as a start, but I think many lunch places will not be open early enough
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[13:00:20] <Pete Resnick_web_745> @Christian: Snack break at mid-morning.
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[13:00:39] <Christian Hopps_web_501> if you feed me breakfast burritos i'd probably be happy :)
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[13:00:46] <Dhruv Dhody_web_540> The meetups I was talking about ->
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[13:01:27] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> is rfcswelove meetup a 'hub' meeting?
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[13:01:41] <Andrew Campling_web_273> @Ted definitely not proposing to revert to previous remote experience.  For example, not using Meetecho as currently configured would seem silly, ditto keeping Meetecho chat, single mic queue etc.  But requiring in-person attendees to use laptops rather than in-room AV seems a bad idea.  
[13:01:57] <mcr> not exactly hub. rfcswelove occurs at a different time than IETF.
[13:02:11] <Dhruv Dhody_web_540> @alex - no something we do in interim between meetings
[13:02:30] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Dhruv - do you meet in-person in these interim?
[13:02:38] <mcr> @Dhruv, but a whole bunch of them occured in the week before IETF, right?
[13:02:49] <Dhruv Dhody_web_540>
[13:02:55] <Andrew Campling_web_273> Also, should the remote proposals apply to interim meetings as well as the main IETF meeting?
[13:03:19] <Dhruv Dhody_web_540> @alex - they were in person and then moved to fully online
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[13:06:30] <John C Klensin> I still wish that, especially as the IETF continues to try to promote diversity, we would figure out how to ban slides that, even on a 27 inch screen, require me to go up to it with a 10x magnifying glass to read what is being presented/ discussed.
[13:07:10] <mcr> @John, agreed.  You don't need to read the diff... you just need to know that it happened though :-)
[13:07:19] <Ted Lemon_web_777> It would be helpful to have a way to evaluate the slides that didn't require you to examine each one.
[13:08:27] <Pete Resnick_web_745> I have become convinced over the years that there are very few ways to teach people to do "good slides". There might even be no way to do "good slides". :-)
[13:08:38] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> 10x magnifying glass, and new stronger glasses for me too.  Part of the problem is the pixelisation realised by the transmission method (the encoding).
[13:08:57] <Ted Lemon_web_777> From my side I think it's definitely possible to do good slides, but not in PDF, and not in the available time.
[13:08:57] <Christian Hopps_web_501> I sometimes use small text, not expecting it to be read in the moment but instead afterwards as reference
[13:09:13] <Suresh Krishnan_web_854> Yep
[13:09:28] <Suresh Krishnan_web_854> Thanks Charles
[13:09:34] <mcr> You can use meeting materials button to get the original PDF.
[13:09:38] <npd> +1 for encouraging slide accessibility. but I think increasing the confidence that the slides are linked from the agenda makes it easier for people to load the slides on their own machine, where they can magnify or have their machine read aloud, etc
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[13:10:00] <Christian Hopps_web_501> Having a magnifying pointer would maybe be cool for presenting, sort of like the mac dock
[13:10:07] <npd> suresh, we hear you but just very quiet
[13:10:16] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Not sure whether the slide showing the annex with Informal references: there seems there were surveymonkey.  Is surveymonkey on IPv6?
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[13:10:54] <John C Klensin> @mcr Yes, it took me about two seconds to figure that out.   And less time to realize that I could pull the documents up and look at the diffs locally if I needed to.    But those slides were a reminder of a more general and recurring problem with type that is sufficiently small to be unreadable.
[13:11:09] <Suresh Krishnan_web_854> Thanks all for attending.
[13:11:14] <Christian Hopps_web_501> b/c when I do use small text sometimes I'd like to point at various things in it while I present.. usually I just break all that out into multiple slides but using one with a magnification tool would be nice
[13:11:15] <Andrew Campling_web_273> Can the Meetecho team help Suresh with his audio?
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[13:11:17] <Pete Resnick_web_745> Apropos of nothing: I just unplugged my hard network and I magically transitioned to WiFi with just 5 seconds of bad transmission. Yay for good tools!
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[13:11:22] <Suresh Krishnan_web_854> I will send a mail to the list
[13:12:56] <npd> is draft-lear-we-gotta-to-stop-meeting-like-this-01 or guidance on how to shift towards better remote and less frequent travel in scope -- under the current or next charter?
[13:13:47] <Charles Eckel_web_718> A link to the charter would be helpful
[13:14:00] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188>
[13:14:08] <Charles Eckel_web_718> thanks!
[13:14:14] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> "draft-lear-we-gotta-to-stop-meeting-like-this-01" - I read the abstract.  I think it is interesting for me here in this group.
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[13:16:19] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> WIth respect to the previous draft presentation about Hackathon: the surveymonkey is not on IPv6, I just checked.  Maybe a warning should beput next to the URL.  Generally speaking maybe surveymonkey not being on IPv6 is an issue to consider at IETF.
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[13:16:39] <Suresh Krishnan_web_854> Diff is here
[13:16:46] <Suresh Krishnan_web_854>
[13:17:35] <Andrew Campling_web_273> As an aside, it's great to see drafts being developed using a word processor rather than GitHub!  :-)  
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[13:18:31] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> It's in here: "Notably, any such guidance will not become actionable until 3-4 years after it achieves consensus, given the length of the IETF meeting planning cycle."
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[13:18:38] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> sorry wrong text
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[13:18:54] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> Yes, this "The cadence of meeting scheduling and the mix of mostly-in-person, "
[13:18:56] <Christian Hopps_web_501> 4 times a year?
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[13:19:43] <npd> @Eliot, I just called you out because of your draft-lear-we-gotta-to-stop-meeting-like-this-01 and I hope we can work on that in this group
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[13:20:03] <Eliot Lear_web_997> bwahaha
[13:20:11] <Eliot Lear_web_997> sorry i'm late
[13:22:01] <Christian Hopps_web_501> I think i'd like to see what huge problem there is that is worth mesing with something so fundemntal (if there's any consideration of losing in person meetings)
[13:22:17] <Christian Hopps_web_501> not a fan FWIW.
[13:22:18] <John C Klensin> Hmm.  I don't have a 20x magnifying glass with a 10 cm lens diameter
[13:22:19] <Suresh Krishnan_web_308> @Andrew: I would have loved to develop this in the datatracker itself
[13:22:45] <Suresh Krishnan_web_308> but the charter cannot be put in the datatracker unless it is a candidate for recharter
[13:22:52] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Sounds like a nice rationalization, Andrew.
[13:22:55] <Christian Hopps_web_501> But Eliot lost me with the title of the document anyway so I suspect we are very much in disagreement
[13:22:58] <npd> we can definitely look at carbon footprint of use and the carbon footprint of our own operations
[13:23:03] <Robert Wilton_web_493> +1 to Andrew's comments about environmental impact of protocols being more important.
[13:23:13] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> I think there should be a place where the fundamentals of carbonon footprinitnign and of covid, could be discussed up front.
[13:23:32] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> carbon footprint: why not both.
[13:23:50] <Christian Hopps_web_501> The fact that what we do at the IETF empowers a huge amount of remote work.. I think we at least should get some "carbon credits" for in person meeting TBH
[13:23:52] <npd> but learning how to do effective remote meetings (or at least, decreasing the travel for meetings) is an important use of Internet protocols to decrease carbon emissions generally (not just for IETF travel, but lots of travel)
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[13:24:57] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> decreasing the emission thanks to IETF protocols?  YEs, but it is not that straightforward: datacenters and protocol complexities all enhance the request for emmissions.
[13:24:59] <Christian Hopps_web_501> i.e., if we work less efficiently then is it a multiplicative bad for the world b/c we less empower people to remote work... or something like that.
[13:25:25] <Vittorio Bertola_web_245> I would do this the other way. First we make remote participation better, then less people will want to attend IETF meetings in person, then possibly we can reduce the frequency of IETF meetings. I would not remove in-person meetings before we are fully satisfied that the remote alternatives are really up to the task.
[13:25:43] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> in the past we did discuss the idea to replace one in-person with a fully online meeting but never did it because we didn't really know how. This has changed now; so I think it a good time now to have more discussion. And I would say that is in scope for the charter
[13:25:50] <Charles Eckel_web_718> I think we should focus on improvements to hybrid meetings for the next bit rather than trying to reduce the number of them
[13:26:15] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> What carbon offset standard will we adhere too? Not all offsets are equal.
[13:26:24] <npd> I just want us to more seriously take the remote attendance and hybrid meetings, rather than waiting for that hypothetically to get better before we make any changes to meetings
[13:27:02] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> yes, I agree Charles. Changing the in-person cadence would be more forward looking like in 3-4 years as the charter basically says
[13:27:14] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> 'carbon offset'?  The kind of planting more trees there to pollute more here is not making the locals happy.
[13:27:23] <Charles Eckel_web_718> Reverse Jabber scribe, someone to add in person people in queue into Meetecho queue
[13:27:27] <Vittorio Bertola_web_245> Also I don't find terms like "second-class" helpful. No matter what we do, the in-person and remote experiences will always be somewhat different. We have to make both as good as possible, sometimes making good compromises. But it will never be possible for the two to be exactly equal.
[13:27:40] <Martin Duke_web_726> Vittorio +1
[13:28:01] <Andrew Campling_web_273> +1 Vittorio
[13:28:15] <Jay Daley_web_618> Yes agree Vittorio - different but equal seems a good goal, though perhaps not achievable
[13:28:25] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> @Alexandre that's one kind of offset. You can also buy direct capture from the air, but they are more expensive.
[13:28:34] <Vittorio Bertola_web_245> "Different but equal" is an oxymoron :-)
[13:28:41] <npd> "different but equal" is an extremely worrying thing to hear for people in the United States
[13:28:44] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Direct capture from the air sounds as a good idea.
[13:28:54] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> yes, Vittorio but there are sometimes decisions where you can only improve for one or the other group and we need guidance in how to decide in those situations
[13:30:03] <Vittorio Bertola_web_245> Sure, that's clear, and we have to find good compromises. Just let's not frame this as some participants being more or less important than others or this will get unnecessarily divisive.
[13:30:20] <Mallory Knodel_web_491> kerosene consumption reduction: why not both?
[13:30:20] <Ted Lemon_web_777> I think it's a bit inappropriate to blame the IETF for e.g. the carbon footprint of data centers running IETF protocols. E.g., any big online service could be shut down tomorrow and save a lot of carbon, but the IETF has no agency in whether or not that happens.
[13:30:20] <Vittorio Bertola_web_245> But I agree on "it's complicated" :)
[13:30:22] <mcr> I've heard the same thing about kerosene for lighting. Shocking really...  See youtube's Technology Connection video on lamps.
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[13:31:04] <Ted Lemon_web_777> This is like expecting individual citizens to somehow solve the carbon problem. Of course we shouldn't deliberately make it worse, but fundamentally it's a governance problem.
[13:31:16] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> I replaced all filament bulbs at home with led, but reduction in consumpation was not that substantial.  The cost was, yes.
[13:31:24] <mcr> @chopps: oscilloscope on the floor in attendance!
[13:31:44] <npd> I don't think we have to "blame" for data center use (or for travel). but we can measure it and think clearly about how to do it better
[13:32:03] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Ted, but one could write drafts about their protocol proposals consume more or less energy, in a same manner as we write drafts that telll how protocols are more or less secure.
[13:32:10] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> it's complicated and therefore a guiding principle with community consensus would helpful. Yes, we should not word it as one group against the other but maybe we can come to some common understanding (or maybe not)
[13:32:14] <Vittorio Bertola_web_245> We should only do the travel which is necessary, but not do the travel which is superfluous. Which is a tautology :)
[13:32:14] <Ted Lemon_web_777> I would suggest that the biggest thing we can do to help with the carbon problem is to enable better governance.
[13:32:27] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> Also if we drop two in-person meetings then people will only have local travel once every 3 years.
[13:32:50] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> That's going to stop a lot of Ph.D. students getting involved.
[13:32:51] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_527> @alexandre, I saw major cost savings going to LED
[13:33:09] <Ted Lemon_web_777> It's actually damaging to think that you are making a difference by doing some thing that makes a tiny difference and then feel like you're done and don't have to be responsible for the real problem that needs solved.
[13:33:26] <Martin Duke_web_726> I don't think this organization has the expertise to do a fine-grained carbon analysis
[13:33:30] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Jonathan, they'll participate online.
[13:33:30] <npd> @jonathan, I attended as a PhD student, and travel costs were a substantial inhibitor
[13:33:40] <Andrew Campling_web_273> On carbon footprint, I'd far rather the focus was on the carbon impact of new IETF proposals - ideally it should be a mandatory part of I-Ds, alongside security etc.
[13:33:53] <Ted Lemon_web_777> If we do more meetings online, and make online participation better, that advantages PhD students, rather than disadvantaging them.
[13:34:06] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> @npd, for me too, that's why my first meeting was the London meeting, where they were cheap (for me).
[13:34:10] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Andrew, that would be completely performative and would not help.
[13:34:25] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Unless you're talking about bitcoin, but we have no agency there anyway.
[13:34:33] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> But at least there was a meeting every year that wasn't _terrible_.
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[13:35:17] <Andrew Campling_web_273> @Ted I disagree (but it's probably a discussion for another place)
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[13:36:10] <Christian Hopps_web_501> Eliot, yes, everyone can make the claim; however, we do in fact empower people to work remotely.. it's not some hand waving BS.. :) I think that would stand up to study if that's required.
[13:36:42] <npd> Christian Hopps_web_501: I certainly hear it in other groups, who are also convinced that for them it really is true and not hand waving ... just one piece of evidence :)
[13:37:18] <Christian Hopps_web_501> Well I chair LSR, IS-IS and OSPF are pretty important to people working remotely.
[13:37:38] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_527> I think we should make interims the normal way to do most stuff. If you have a project like QUIC, a one or two day interim gets MUCH more work done than an IETF session (single or double).
[13:38:04] <mcr> we extend the meeting because we want to amortize the cost of travel?
[13:38:17] <mcr> Saturday to Sunday?
[13:38:33] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> I think the assumption here is that the meeting location we drop won't be the US.
[13:38:34] <mcr> +1 on PHB comment.
[13:38:43] <Christian Hopps_web_501> improving quality and convergence allows for moving from vioce to video to teleconfernce zoom etc the things we use now.. in the future it may be high quality virtual (meta? :)
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[13:38:57] <mcr> @Jonathan, I wouldn't not assume that. the US has been very very hard to meet in, pre-covid.
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[13:39:00] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> I suspect support for this would go to pretty much zero if the two meetings were Europe and Asia
[13:39:19] <Martin Duke_web_726> We tried the interim-heavy approach at IETF 107 and IMO that was not a successful experiment
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[13:39:32] <Suresh Krishnan_web_308> @PHB, @mcr: The traditional counter-argument against that has been "lack of cross polination" but IMHO it is already not happening.
[13:39:40] <mcr> @Martin, what we did for 107 was not at all a reasonable experiment.
[13:39:42] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_997> @mcr That's why so many meetings were in Canada, but the point is that it's on the North American continent.
[13:40:03] <npd> we could follow the principles of balancing between the three regions no matter the number of in-person meetings
[13:40:04] <Christian Hopps_web_501> @martin this is the biggest thing I hope people take away, there's really no 1 size fits all.. in the IETF, I've seen some groups work effectively one way and bad another, and vice versa for other WGs..
[13:40:05] <Andrew Campling_web_273> Encourage (even require) the use of Meetecho for interims rather than other, less good tools?
[13:40:05] <Ted Lemon_web_777> If we did two meetings a year, we could still have three locations.
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[13:40:16] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Meetecho is a less good tool.
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[13:40:50] <Martin Duke_web_726> @christian I am not suggesting we ban interims
[13:40:55] <mcr> meetecho is better than webex, and at least on par with jitsi.  zoom doesn't even rank for me.
[13:40:56] <Christian Hopps_web_501> no I know
[13:40:58] <Andrew Campling_web_273> Less good than what?  IMHO It's far better than Teams, Webex
[13:41:00] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Meetecho requires me to give permissions to my browser that I don't want to give.
[13:41:00] <Christian Hopps_web_501> I'm agreeing with you
[13:41:05] <Philip Eardley_web_951> How about 4 meetings a year, alternating in-person (/hybrid) and fully online meetings
[13:41:08] <Ted Lemon_web_777> Webex is also a less good tool. :)
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[13:41:20] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> Is there a dedicated scientific panel sub-structure at IETF that focuses on the covid aspects?  (e.g. study and understand the covid situation in various places)?  Something like a covid office, or covid responsible, or so?
[13:41:32] <mcr> no.
[13:41:35] <mcr> it's you.
[13:41:41] <Suresh Krishnan_web_308> @Alex: No and I hope not
[13:41:42] <Andrew Campling_web_273> @Alex I'm not sure this is an IETF competence
[13:41:57] <Christian Hopps_web_501> +1 on what was jsut said.
[13:42:19] <Christian Hopps_web_501> i.e., nm reducing meetings in person, but make remote attendance work really well. that's what I'd like anyway
[13:42:19] <Martin Duke_web_726> If people are going to limit themselves to continental travel, that's a case for keeping the current tempo
[13:42:24] <npd> right, we don't have to pretend that IETF is making it happen alone. organizations will be reducing travel costs. and eventually, carbon taxes will make it extraordinarily expensive (even if some of us haven't admitted it yet)
[13:42:25] <mnot> Are companies saying that they're cutting travel because some meetings are going to be replaced by online, and they anticipate savings, or because they're cutting funding across the board?
[13:42:38] <mcr> I think that one becomes "first rate" by doing reviews, writing drafts and chairing WGs.  You can do that remotely very well.
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[13:43:10] <Christian Hopps_web_501> b/c that let's people choose what works best for them.
[13:43:41] <mcr> mnot, I think that outside of the R&D staff, the non-technical staff have been completely incapable of doing things online.  Even collaborating on a document with a customer is hard for the sales people.
[13:43:52] <npd> perhaps we should set a goal of decreasing the length of travel or the fraction of in-person attendees, while maintaining the same meeting cadence
[13:44:11] <Philip Eardley_web_951> About meetecho: a lot of people who are presenting have had trouble displaying their slides - some combination of Chair and presenter troubles finding the right buttons. Maybe there's a way of making it more obvious? Or a 1-minute guide /video (possibly linked somehow off the standard page?
[13:44:26] <Suresh Krishnan_web_308> @mcr: Mostly agree. I think getting to the first RFC, first chairing position might be difficult and people who have attended physical meetings have an advantage
[13:44:59] <Dhruv Dhody_web_540> @philip -
[13:45:04] <mcr> Yes, Suresh, I agree: getting into that good position is easier with in-person contact.
[13:45:33] <Dhruv Dhody_web_540> @philip - we just need to make it easier to find
[13:45:47] <Richard Barnes_web_387> my experience is that the utility of tourism is not that high
[13:46:16] <Richard Barnes_web_387> disagree; interims tend to have more newcomers since they don't have to commit to a whole IETF meeting
[13:46:24] <Eliot Lear_web_997> @Martin- I am thinking of grouped in-person interims where the secretariat could assist on arrangements, again on the bookends.
[13:46:26] <mnot> +1 Andrew — interims are only useful / productive when people know each other, to soem degree.
[13:46:36] <Eliot Lear_web_997> But that's just one thing to TRY
[13:46:46] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> @philipp meetecho is already working on this. but best to give feedback to meetecho directly
[13:47:11] <alexamirante> Philip Eardley: this page is linked in the main IETF112 page and has the video guide you're seeking
[13:47:11] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> (sorry for misspelling your name)
[13:47:11] <Eliot Lear_web_997> My experience with rotating timezones is that in the winter, rotating annoys people more than helps
[13:47:34] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> I wonder why we dont say that we have to write a draft about hoding more interims, the current subject.
[13:47:35] <mnot> @Andrew C, I've been thinking about writing a draft about scheduling online meetings across timezones…
[13:47:35] <mcr> @Eliot, what do you mean exactly?  
[13:47:42] <mcr> Nov/March are winter right?
[13:47:43] <Greg Wood_web_913> @philip & @dhruv there's a link to the meetecho documentation on the main meeting page ( but suggestions gratefully accepted
[13:48:27] <Pete Resnick_web_745> I've had good experiences with cross-area participation, both input and output to/from my area.
[13:48:30] <Eliot Lear_web_997> @mcr, in terms of rotating timezones mostly people want something around 8:00pm or 9:00pm GMT -- IN THE WINTER
[13:48:43] <John C Klensin> @Andrew: Agree on all points.  Interims have  their value, but, unless we want to descend into largely uncoordinated silos, very dangerous.  One thing you didn't mention is that frequent interims also encourage decision making by those who attend rather than on mailing lists.
[13:49:03] <mcr> in the winter, people don't want to go outside at night, so are happy to have the meeting be essentially, after kid-bedtime?
[13:49:05] <npd> I haven't so far heard the suggestion that we should try to kneecap productivity for the sake of equality
[13:49:27] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_527> What if the choice is three thinly attended meetings a year or one well attended meeting?
[13:49:47] <mnot> QUIC interims were good because of some kickass chairing, right @Lars? :)
[13:50:03] <Jay Daley_web_618> Just a reminder that this planet is a globe and winter/summer are at opposite times depending on your hemisphere
[13:50:03] <mcr> that wasn't a virtual *interim*. That was a month-long virtual meeting.
[13:50:04] <Andrew Campling_web_273> @John: Good point, I hadn't thought about the decision making component
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[13:50:23] <Eliot Lear_web_997> @Jay- sorry i meant winter in the northern hemisphere
[13:50:25] <John C Klensin> @npd Maybe I'm listening differently than you are, but I have heard proposals that would amount to that tradeoff several times in the last few years.
[13:50:30] <Pete Resnick_web_745> @npd: One person's "no second-class experience" is another's "kneecapping". It's a balance to make sure that neither happens too much.
[13:51:25] <Bron Gondwana_web_369> the only way to make everybody equal is to not meet, and even that isn't enough - because some people still have more time to spend on the mailing lists
[13:51:40] <npd> @pete, I think we can avoid doing either, and that seemed like a pretty common sentiment from what I heard people say at the mic
[13:51:48] <Charles Eckel_web_718> +1 Suresh
[13:53:28] <Andrew Campling_web_273> @Bron you also need to account for different levels of connectivity - I'm using an FTTP connection with an i7 device and ultra-wide screen, will have a very different online experience than someone on ADSL with a tablet
[13:53:32] <Pete Resnick_web_745> @npd: It *can* be done, but it takes some careful balancing, and some of the comments seemed less-than-balanced, even if the sentiment was for doing both.
[13:53:40] <Eliot Lear_web_997> @Bron, that's my experience.  The ITU went from insisting that no one could vote or motion remotely, to fully remote.  In some of those places, the telecom was not up to suff, tho
[13:53:41] <Martin Duke_web_726> @mcr what is your interim-heavy model that is substantitively different from a "month-long virtual meeting"
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[13:54:12] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_180> thanks for the meeting!
[13:54:12] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> because if you distribute interim more equally over the year it might be less load
[13:54:21] <Dhruv Dhody_web_540> Bye!
[13:54:21] <npd> @pete, if we have that as a shared goal, that's a good start!
[13:54:22] <Pete Resnick_web_745> Thanks chairs: Useful meeting.
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[13:54:23] <Andrew Campling_web_273> Thank you chairs
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[13:54:29] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_188> thx!
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[13:54:42] <npd> thanks all for indulging the longer conversation on meeting cadence and potential changes
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[13:55:13] <John C Klensin> thx from me too
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[13:55:40] <mcr> @Martin, three comments about that experiment: a) half the chairs had never done a virtual interim, and had no idea how to operated webex.   b) the few number of time zones.  c) compressing it into a month was silly.   Many virtual interims would have WGs establish some pattern of meetings, from every two weeks to every two months, with reasonable advance notice.  
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