Wednesday, July 28, 2021< ^ >
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

[20:39:03] BEHCET SARIKAYA joins the room
[21:08:59] Meetecho joins the room
[21:15:03] Loa Andersson_web_588 joins the room
[21:15:03] Ole Trøan_web_952 joins the room
[21:15:03] Laura Nugent_web_917 joins the room
[21:15:03] Amelia Andersdotter_web_507 joins the room
[21:15:03] Paolo Saviano_web_488 joins the room
[21:15:38] Loa Andersson_web_588 leaves the room
[21:15:57] Amelia Andersdotter_web_507 leaves the room
[21:16:10] Kyle Rose_web_873 joins the room
[21:16:53] Jaime Jimenez_web_414 joins the room
[21:17:39] Alessandro Amirante_web_738 joins the room
[21:20:57] Martin Duke_web_483 joins the room
[21:21:12] Andrew Campling_web_551 joins the room
[21:22:16] Mwende Njiraini_web_936 joins the room
[21:22:16] Amelia Andersdotter_web_741 joins the room
[21:22:20] Amelia Andersdotter_web_741 leaves the room
[21:22:21] Frode Kileng_web_739 joins the room
[21:22:23] Amelia Andersdotter_web_363 joins the room
[21:23:06] Martin Duke_web_483 leaves the room
[21:23:12] Martin Duke_web_678 joins the room
[21:23:21] Sean Croghan_web_737 joins the room
[21:23:24] Lars Eggert_web_864 joins the room
[21:23:34] Lucy Lynch_web_673 joins the room
[21:23:44] Martin Duke_web_678 leaves the room
[21:23:47] Dhruv Dhody_web_914 joins the room
[21:23:48] Martin Duke_web_426 joins the room
[21:25:33] Julien Maisonneuve_web_600 joins the room
[21:26:03] Bernie Hoeneisen_web_673 joins the room
[21:26:35] Stephen McQuistin_web_650 joins the room
[21:26:56] Markus Amend_web_854 joins the room
[21:26:59] Ted Hardie_web_807 joins the room
[21:27:19] meetecho-alexamirante joins the room
[21:27:31] Wataru Ohgai_web_231 joins the room
[21:27:43] Jay Daley_web_217 joins the room
[21:28:05] Olaf Kolkman_web_282 joins the room
[21:28:07] Ralf Weber_web_920 joins the room
[21:28:11] Barbara Stark_web_837 joins the room
[21:28:32] Michael Richardson_web_914 joins the room
[21:28:33] Richard Scheffenegger_web_260 joins the room
[21:28:36] frodek joins the room
[21:28:51] කෙසර රත්නායක_web_898 joins the room
[21:28:52] Eliot Lear_web_749 joins the room
[21:29:13] Jason Livingood_web_546 joins the room
[21:29:17] Bron Gondwana_web_796 joins the room
[21:29:24] Colin Perkins_web_453 joins the room
[21:29:36] Robert Raszuk_web_556 joins the room
[21:29:37] Colin Perkins_web_453 leaves the room
[21:29:39] Theresa Enghardt_web_849 joins the room
[21:29:41] Colin Perkins_web_975 joins the room
[21:29:46] Charles Eckel_web_952 joins the room
[21:29:59] Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay_web_188 joins the room
[21:30:00] Suresh Krishnan_web_437 joins the room
[21:30:02] Aaron Falk_web_843 joins the room
[21:30:07] Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_361 joins the room
[21:30:09] Jonathan Hoyland_web_396 joins the room
[21:30:11] Mark Nottingham_web_908 joins the room
[21:30:12] Behcet Sarikaya_web_874 joins the room
[21:30:13] Eckard Bogenfeld_web_913 joins the room
[21:30:13] mcr joins the room
[21:30:14] Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay_web_188 leaves the room
[21:30:14] Olaf Kolkman_web_282 leaves the room
[21:30:19] Olaf Kolkman_web_429 joins the room
[21:30:20] Mirja Kühlewind_web_599 joins the room
[21:30:27] Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay_web_440 joins the room
[21:30:30] mcr has set the subject to: The topic is not set!
[21:30:30] Alexa Morris_web_852 joins the room
[21:30:31] Greg Wood_web_730 joins the room
[21:30:36] David Schinazi_web_181 joins the room
[21:30:40] Lee-Berkeley Shaw_web_710 joins the room
[21:30:41] John Scudder_web_755 joins the room
[21:30:44] Simon Romano_web_500 joins the room
[21:30:51] Olaf Kolkman_web_429 leaves the room
[21:31:00] Cullen Jennings_web_418 joins the room
[21:31:01] Olaf Kolkman_web_147 joins the room
[21:31:05] Chris Box_web_850 joins the room
[21:31:07] Robert Sparks_web_972 joins the room
[21:31:21] Christopher Wood_web_251 joins the room
[21:31:21] Al Morton_web_490 joins the room
[21:31:40] Greg Wood_web_730 leaves the room
[21:31:46] Jonathan Reed_web_388 joins the room
[21:31:47] Greg Wood_web_908 joins the room
[21:31:49] Avri Doria_web_550 joins the room
[21:31:52] Tommy Pauly_web_744 joins the room
[21:31:55] Jen Linkova_web_194 joins the room
[21:31:57] Glenn Deen_web_670 joins the room
[21:32:01] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> it is not shmoo it is manycouches :)
[21:32:22] Philip Eardley_web_682 joins the room
[21:32:36] Barry Leiba_web_349 joins the room
[21:32:37] Taiji Kimura_web_560 joins the room
[21:32:41] Peter Koch_web_808 joins the room
[21:32:57] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> sure, I can take minutes
[21:33:04] Jared Mauch_web_726 joins the room
[21:33:21] Michelle Cotton_web_374 joins the room
[21:33:33] Toerless Eckert_web_399 joins the room
[21:33:47] David Lawrence_web_635 joins the room
[21:33:49] Sanjay Mishra_web_544 joins the room
[21:33:53] කෙසර රත්නායක_web_898 leaves the room
[21:33:53] Wes Hardaker_web_230 joins the room
[21:34:07] Eric Kinnear_web_563 joins the room
[21:34:24] Justin Iurman_web_433 joins the room
[21:34:31] Robert Sparks_web_972 leaves the room
[21:34:33] Michael StJohns_web_808 joins the room
[21:34:36] Robert Sparks_web_449 joins the room
[21:34:37] Stuart Cheshire_web_189 joins the room
[21:34:42] Karen O'Donoghue_web_356 joins the room
[21:34:50] Mayumi Ohsugi_web_539 joins the room
[21:34:56] Zaheduzzaman Sarker_web_701 joins the room
[21:35:00] Magnus Westerlund_web_239 joins the room
[21:35:16] David Schinazi_web_181 leaves the room
[21:35:20] David Schinazi_web_782 joins the room
[21:35:20] David Schinazi_web_782 leaves the room
[21:35:23] Olaf Kolkman_web_147 leaves the room
[21:35:24] David Schinazi_web_820 joins the room
[21:35:31] Olaf Kolkman_web_910 joins the room
[21:35:43] Eric Rescorla_web_310 joins the room
[21:36:28] <Jay Daley_web_217>
[21:36:29] Jon Peterson_web_446 joins the room
[21:36:47] Rüdiger Volk_web_318 joins the room
[21:37:13] Joerg Ott_web_132 joins the room
[21:37:21] Philipp Tiesel_web_311 joins the room
[21:37:28] Martin Thomson_web_313 joins the room
[21:37:43] Sanjay Mishra_web_544 leaves the room
[21:37:47] Sanjay Mishra_web_546 joins the room
[21:37:56] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> right now Meetecho tooling is based on the draft, so... we probably should close that loop somehow, unless it's just "we use whatever Meetecho makes"
[21:38:16] Bob Hinden_web_654 joins the room
[21:39:50] Adrian Farrel_web_459 joins the room
[21:40:10] Rob Hamilton_web_586 joins the room
[21:40:49] Nigel Hickson_web_804 joins the room
[21:42:24] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> Usually things are announced on ietf-announce@
[21:42:33] John C Klensin joins the room
[21:42:51] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> I was wondering who is the AD for shmoo manycouches
[21:42:55] Sanjay Mishra_web_546 leaves the room
[21:42:57] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> Lars
[21:42:59] Sanjay Mishra_web_756 joins the room
[21:43:08] John Klensin_web_565 joins the room
[21:43:24] Pete Resnick_web_362 joins the room
[21:43:33] Sanjay Mishra_web_756 leaves the room
[21:43:42] Carlos Silva_web_211 joins the room
[21:43:57] Sanjay Mishra_web_898 joins the room
[21:45:05] Sanjay Mishra_web_898 leaves the room
[21:45:14] Aaron Gable_web_528 joins the room
[21:45:29] <Martin Thomson_web_313> isn't 1300 UTC for Europe the way you get 8h between each?
[21:45:30] Cathy Aronson_web_523 joins the room
[21:45:49] Sanjay Mishra_web_850 joins the room
[21:45:59] Subir Das_web_635 joins the room
[21:46:20] <mcr> Martin, so since almost nobody lives in the Pacific Ocean, it's not clear to me that we should do 8,8,8.  
[21:46:21] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> not sure why it needs to be an 8h  step...? the world is not equally populated...
[21:46:25] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> This is pretty unrealistic.
[21:46:37] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> There's a big difference between 3am and 7am.
[21:46:40] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> nobody loves NZ, sorry Jay :(
[21:46:41] <Martin Thomson_web_313> mcr that makes NZ very poorly served
[21:46:58] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> we discussed that but didn't go into the effort to try all settings (yet)
[21:47:02] <mcr> After all this methodology, just starting at 9am local.  NZ should recruit more draft authors :-)
[21:47:08] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_396> It doesn't even always get included on maps.
[21:47:10] Warren Kumari_web_821 joins the room
[21:47:37] <Martin Thomson_web_313> mcr I find that reasoning pretty offensive, frankly
[21:47:38] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> we also discussed including NZ. it's always a bit of a random choice
[21:48:14] <Martin Thomson_web_313> the pain calculation I used for scheduling IAB meetings was 0 for work hours 1 for awake hours and 500 for 3am
[21:48:15] <mcr> Martin: I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend. I'm just saying that the numbers aren't there, but maybe they could be...  
[21:48:35] <Martin Thomson_web_313> mcr: the problem is that you are attempting to use numbers.  Might as well vote on the outcome
[21:48:46] <mcr> that's why I claim that pain minimization is the wrong way to go.  As you say, might as well vote.
[21:49:23] Sanjay Mishra_web_850 leaves the room
[21:49:34] <Martin Thomson_web_313> yeah, for reasons that I think are not entirely selfish, I think that voting for this is wrong.  Martin's reasoning here is closer to what I would prefer
[21:49:50] <mcr> Because so few people live in the Pacific, and Europe is in the middle, Europe will always get least pain.
[21:49:54] Carlos Silva_web_211 leaves the room
[21:50:18] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> Sure, if you draw an artificial line down the middle of the Pacific, that makes sense
[21:50:26] Eric Rescorla_web_310 leaves the room
[21:50:35] Eric Rescorla_web_671 joins the room
[21:51:03] <Jay Daley_web_217> This is well thought out.
[21:51:06] Francois Ortolan_web_562 joins the room
[21:51:08] Erik Nygren_web_187 joins the room
[21:51:09] Wes Hardaker_web_230 leaves the room
[21:52:01] <Martin Thomson_web_313> the outcome here isn't terrible: everyone suffers really badly about once.
[21:52:47] <Bob Hinden_web_654> I am fine with what is proposed on the screen.    
[21:52:50] <Rob Hamilton_web_586> Well done, Mirja and Martin.
[21:52:59] <Rob Hamilton_web_586> +1, Bob
[21:53:07] <Martin Thomson_web_313> this utilitarian thing Toerless advocates here is terrible
[21:53:10] Jen Linkova_web_194 leaves the room
[21:53:15] Jen Linkova_web_209 joins the room
[21:53:17] <Robert Sparks_web_449> Best compromise I've seen so far
[21:53:29] Roman Shpount_web_610 joins the room
[21:53:51] <Eric Rescorla_web_671> Well, another potential metric would be to attempt to minimize the variance.
[21:54:06] <Robert Sparks_web_449> (Though it may encourage a "most people from region X go to 2 meetings a year" behavior)
[21:54:35] Robert Raszuk_web_556 leaves the room
[21:54:40] Olaf Kolkman_web_910 leaves the room
[21:54:46] Robert Raszuk_web_870 joins the room
[21:54:51] Juliana Guerra_web_546 joins the room
[21:54:53] <Martin Thomson_web_313> This is basically 8h rotation, except that it isn't 8h
[21:55:22] joins the room
[21:55:23] Robert Raszuk_web_870 leaves the room
[21:55:53] <> I agree with a bunch of what mnot said, which is that if we are somehow going to be meeting remotely indefinitely, having it be these week-long blocks really needs to be reconsidered
[21:56:01] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> Anyone solved the problem of optimal start for each venue?
[21:56:03] <Martin Thomson_web_313> 0500 -> 0400 and it is 8h, so it already compensates for the pacific gap
[21:56:06] <> Like it was fine on an emergency basis, but....
[21:56:15] <mcr> If we can trust the LLC to implement 1-1-1-* right, then if we just pick 9am local, we basically are getting pretty close to 8h anyway.
[21:56:24] Sanjay Mishra_web_591 joins the room
[21:56:24] <Adrian Farrel_web_459> @ekr +1
[21:56:33] <Adrian Farrel_web_459> Addresing the wrong problem
[21:57:28] <> Or people just got tired of complaining
[21:57:31] <Bob Hinden_web_654> I note that this is the kind of problem that there is not a perfect solution.
[21:57:39] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_396> People never seem to tire of complaining.
[21:57:40] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> Well exactly - people may not bother to complain
[21:57:53] <mcr> I stopped complaining that the noon-start was unfair and silly.
[21:57:57] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> A certain type of person never tires of complaining, but that's not the only form of feedback.
[21:58:13] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> there were more complains for the first couple of online meetings I 'd say
[21:58:26] Charles Eckel_web_952 leaves the room
[21:58:52] Charles Eckel_web_369 joins the room
[21:59:01] <Jon Peterson_web_446> i think during covid everyone has ended up working weird hours and the ietf was not a major pain center
[21:59:34] Olaf Kolkman_web_876 joins the room
[21:59:39] <Jen Linkova_web_209> +1 to what Bob said - I do not think we can make all people even in the same timezone happy. I'm *much* more happy, for example, with 5am - 11am slot than I'd be with 9am - 3pm or 4pm - 10pm ones...because it minimizes conflicts with a) day job b)family time. But I guess there are a lot of people who would disagree ;)
[21:59:40] <Jared Mauch_web_726> In the routing space we implemented route flap dampening to ignore noisy signals when they might overpower the receiver.
[21:59:41] <Eliot Lear_web_749> @Jon +1000
[21:59:43] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> the easy answer is there is no good answer...
[21:59:44] nygren joins the room
[21:59:49] <Jared Mauch_web_726> +1 Mirja
[21:59:58] <Martin Thomson_web_313> +1 to what Ted is saying here.
[22:00:11] Bill Cerveny_web_941 joins the room
[22:00:14] <Jay Daley_web_217> Has anyone here actually changed their mind on the "all in one week" position?
[22:00:20] Dirk Hugo_web_791 joins the room
[22:00:22] <mcr> I also agree with Ted. That was really the focus of many-fine-dinners, but it didn't seem like anyone agreed.
[22:00:25] Dirk Hugo_web_791 leaves the room
[22:00:34] <Jared Mauch_web_726> I'd like to see a non-conflicted IETF schedule... and figure out how long it might be
[22:00:43] <Eliot Lear_web_749> +1 to Ted as well
[22:00:47] <mcr> Jared, go read my document.
[22:00:51] <Bob Hinden_web_654> No me, I think multiple weeks would be much worse.   One week is already very disruptive.
[22:00:53] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_396> 3 weeks of sporadic 4am meetings sounds even worse.
[22:00:54] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> +1 ted
[22:00:57] <Jen Linkova_web_209> Jared: so my the time one IETF finishes, it's time for the next one to start?
[22:01:02] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_260> +1 Ted
[22:01:05] <nygren> +1 to Ted and ekr.
[22:01:12] <mcr>
[22:01:13] <Martin Thomson_web_313> share the pain is fine if you assume that the 5x6h block is inevitable
[22:01:31] Sanjay Mishra_web_591 leaves the room
[22:01:39] Wes Hardaker_web_274 joins the room
[22:01:41] <Eliot Lear_web_749> It may be inevitable ANYWAY, Martin, but maybe not.  Remains to be seen, as the coronor said.
[22:01:45] <Andrew Campling_web_551> Spread over 2-3 weeks is verging on sleep deprivation / torture!
[22:01:59] <Jared Mauch_web_726> Jen: IETF is one continuum of pain, i think the real question is is IETF a full time thing or not, and if we want to hear diverse opinions how can people who aren't 100% all-in participate (very OT)
[22:02:06] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> from the survey people seem to prefer full meetings in one week (I personally also think that we should take more advantage of the online setup but being more flexible but that didn't show in the community feedback)
[22:02:08] <mcr> Bob: an low-conflict, plenary+BOF focused week, with more virtual interim meetings.  Yes, some will be at 4am, but given a much smaller group, much easier to optimize.
[22:02:51] <Andrew Campling_web_551> @mcr but that is likely to perpetuate current issues with lack of diversity of participants
[22:03:35] Korry Luke_web_202 joins the room
[22:03:49] <mcr> Andrew, if there is too much small-group optimization, yes, I totally agree.   When I had a young child, a 4am meeting wouldn't have been a problem :-)
[22:04:08] <mcr> (vs a 4pm meeting)
[22:04:34] <John C Klensin> While I agree we should look at spreading things out more, it would likely interact with two other thingss: (1) if we go to "many people in person" (aka "hybrid") it almost certainly won't work.  and (2) spreading things out over, e.g.,, 2 weeks, is almost certain to result in fewer people dropping in on meetings that might be interesting and sessions attended only by those who are specifically interested in participated in them.
[22:04:35] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> +1 EKR. The value of holding these meetings in this particular fashion is pretty low.
[22:04:48] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> but again the draft is rather documenting what was done so than giving binding guidelines and encourages experiments (once at a time) but it would be nice to settle on the time zone question for the current set-up
[22:04:55] <Philip Eardley_web_682> I think it’s worth the scheduling within a meeting placingthe “key” sessions in the “golden time slot” (eg bofs and WGs which have the largest attendance go in the time slot that’s ok for all time zones
[22:05:00] <Colin Perkins_web_975> If we're doing this for the long term, we need to get better at asynchronous work – not convinced that synchronous meetings are solvable with time zones
[22:05:09] <Eliot Lear_web_749> The nice thing about spreading the meeting out a little longer is that you might be able to survey early-registered participants in advance of scheduling, and see if you can pick convenient times on a per WG/BOF basis.
[22:05:12] <Kyle Rose_web_873> The only reason we meet in a 5 day block is that it's impractical for in-person meetings to be spread over a much larger, less compressed time period: no one wants to live in a hotel for that long. This format doesn't make sense for fully remote meetings.
[22:05:13] <John C Klensin> @Colin: +1
[22:05:48] Sanjay Mishra_web_851 joins the room
[22:06:07] <Kyle Rose_web_873> For fully-remote meetings, it makes more sense to have the individual sessions scheduled for the convenience of the major participants. Let's just call them "interims", and encourage more of them until we can again meet in person.
[22:06:31] <Jared Mauch_web_726> +1 Kyle - I also previously wanted griped about when certain WG's were in the first and last slot of the week so you had to stay the whole time.
[22:06:34] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> +1 Colin
[22:06:38] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> people didn't like that for 107
[22:06:52] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> (having spread out interims instead)
[22:07:01] <Kyle Rose_web_873> Now that they've had the opposite experience, let's reevaluate
[22:07:05] <Jared Mauch_web_726> Mirja i'd counter what do IETF'ers like? :-)
[22:07:10] <Toerless Eckert_web_399> Triple booked ?
[22:07:18] <Andrew Campling_web_551> Double booking in online meetings are much less of a problem than for in-person meetings
[22:07:20] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> You're NEVER going to make everyone happy; if you judge things by "do people like it?" we're never going to make progress. Judge it based upon what's best for the work and for the organisation.
[22:07:22] <Bob Hinden_web_654> I was triple booked today at the first session.
[22:07:30] <Martin Thomson_web_313> It's rare that I avoid triple booking
[22:07:35] <Jared Mauch_web_726> +1 Mark (can't make everyone happy)
[22:07:52] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_396> I have a few triple booked slots, and a _lot_ of double booked slots.
[22:07:57] <Colin Perkins_web_975> I'm (at least) double booked in all but three slots...
[22:07:59] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> chairs can each decide individually for their groups if they want to meet in the meeting week or only have interim
[22:08:06] <Jared Mauch_web_726> (today i had 4x)
[22:08:09] <> I want to be clear that I do think that the IESG has done a reasonably good job of things under difficult circumstances
[22:08:15] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> for taps both had value but it were very different kind of meetings
[22:08:21] <> So this is not a criticism of what they have done so far.
[22:08:25] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> Being multiple-booked is just a sign that you're somewhat engaged in the IETF as a whole, rather than just a vertical.
[22:08:42] Rob Hamilton_web_586 leaves the room
[22:08:51] <> Mark: well, like Monday was MASQUE and SECDISPATCH
[22:08:57] <Jared Mauch_web_726> (routing and sidrops) then (IRTF+gendispatch)
[22:08:58] <> And then yesterday was HRPC and OHTTP
[22:09:03] Kotikalapudi Sriram_web_475 joins the room
[22:09:05] <> And both of those really overlap
[22:09:09] <Martin Thomson_web_313> mnot: that is largely true, I think, but it is also indicative of how good the scheduling is at cleaving along the lines of areas
[22:09:22] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> I would wish chairs would be more open to manage their meetings differently (said this last time already I think)
[22:09:29] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> Yes. It's an artificial constraint when we're online
[22:09:44] <David Lawrence_web_635> Wait, what?  The current one shows good balance?    US Eastern is late night to morning in each time.  (Now I'm the outlier that will be okay with that, but still.)
[22:09:50] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> We've done every HTTP meeting as an interim since COVID started, and it's worked well.
[22:09:52] <mcr> Mirja, like what? I would really like improvements and variations....
[22:10:00] Sanjay Mishra_web_851 leaves the room
[22:10:04] Sanjay Mishra_web_304 joins the room
[22:10:05] <Andrew Campling_web_551> @ekr perhaps chairs should check more with regular wg attendees on possible conflicts to avoid when scheduling?
[22:10:32] <> @Mnot: I think certainly if one is to be totally virtual then the value of live meeting degrades and more online work is better
[22:10:47] Barbara Stark_web_837 leaves the room
[22:10:51] Barbara Stark_web_414 joins the room
[22:10:58] <Jared Mauch_web_726> Andrew, that doesn't seem practical, conflicts are inevitable and will always make someone unhappy
[22:10:58] <Martin Thomson_web_313> andrew: that is already part of the scheduling logic
[22:11:00] Rich Salz_web_149 joins the room
[22:11:21] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> we only dispatch and boF chairs would request meeting slots during the ietf week
[22:11:35] <> Maybe if everyone could switch to UTC
[22:11:48] <> Then we could all meet at the same time
[22:11:53] Lisa Winkler_web_160 joins the room
[22:12:23] <Jen Linkova_web_209> The main issue with interims/multiple-weeks, IMHO, is vacation planning. It's reasonably easy to avoid 3 weeks. Avoid N (where N > 3) might become problematic..or maybe it's just me and nobody else is taking vacations ever..;)
[22:12:55] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> @fluffy: Doing that at the granularity of a WG is workable, if done carefully. Doing it at the granularity of the IETF is not.
[22:13:01] Sanjay Mishra_web_304 leaves the room
[22:13:05] Sanjay Mishra_web_120 joins the room
[22:13:19] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> I've been also thinking about a two step approach like that but did get it to the end...
[22:13:52] Bill Cerveny_web_941 leaves the room
[22:14:04] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> It's absurd to tell people that they need to get up at 4:30am because of arbitrary decisions made about scheduling to fit in with other groups they don't participate in and don't care about.
[22:14:16] <Jared Mauch_web_726> +1 mnot
[22:14:18] <Aaron Falk_web_843> +1 to Cullen's point.  I think we need to pay attention to wg contributors.  They're volunteers and if participation is too painful we risk losing them.  I'd like a shorter session and greater use of interims that are scheduled around the wg's needs.
[22:14:21] Jesus Martin_web_621 joins the room
[22:14:23] <Kyle Rose_web_873> +1 mnot
[22:14:25] Kotikalapudi Sriram_web_475 leaves the room
[22:14:43] Kotikalapudi Sriram_web_569 joins the room
[22:14:47] Kotikalapudi Sriram_web_569 leaves the room
[22:15:02] Roman Shpount_web_610 leaves the room
[22:15:35] <> Honestly, i think we should be asking seriously about the value of a 2hr telecon every 4 months
[22:15:38] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> I was rather thinking about picking one timezone but then have the flexibility to switch by 1-2 hours depending on participants... details to be worked out.
[22:15:49] <David Lawrence_web_635> I'm less strong on the "absurd" part.   Absurd implies pure irrationality, not just unpalatability.
[22:15:49] <> Like, could we have had TLS just in email
[22:15:51] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> +1 ekr
[22:16:13] <> I recognize that it's a forcing function and you would need stronger chairing. A strong chair like mnot
[22:16:18] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> Let's please have the discussion of whether we need an "IETF week" if it's virtual. We keep on assuming we need to.
[22:16:19] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> but maybe there is also a way to consider which slots to give to which group with the selected meeting time slot
[22:16:22] <mcr> @ekr, if it could have been in email.... then why wasn't it?  What prevented it?  Would you have boycotted a silly WG agenda?
[22:16:31] <David Lawrence_web_635> I mean, lots of things I don't like in scheduling happen because of something else someone else is doing that I don't care about.
[22:16:40] <Andrew Campling_web_551> I'm pretty sure the earlier surveys looked at alternatives to 6 hour days, 5 day meetings and concluded that this is the options most of us prefer
[22:16:46] <> @mcr: see above, we're locked into this rhythm and the chairs/participants haven't found they have to do differently
[22:16:57] <Pete Resnick_web_362> @Aaron: I suspect (but of course have nothing more than anecdotes, not data) that the people who do volunteer and do the work are *more* willing to stretch their schedules into pain than others.
[22:17:03] <Martin Thomson_web_313> Unfortunately, I don't think that we can command sufficient attention from a diverse enough crowd in any other way than forcing this block of time to be reserved.
[22:17:13] <> Re: a silly session, often it means "I need to go and comment on something" so hard to boycott
[22:17:16] <Kyle Rose_web_873> @tale: Which makes sense when there's an unavoidable constraint (like having an in-person meeting of practical length). That particular constraint doesn't apply to remote meetings.
[22:17:19] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> Identify the handful of WGs that are truly cross-organisation; maybe the DISPATCHes, the BoFs and the plenaries. Have those meet 2-3 times a year together.
[22:17:25] <mcr> @ekr, so the bigger problem is breaking out of this pattern, even if we are going to return to in-person meetings, because we still have a scheduling problem in-person.
[22:17:51] <> @mcr: well, I actually feel pretty good about the in person cadence
[22:17:58] <> It
[22:18:04] <> It's the virtual thing that I think is bad
[22:18:12] Jonathan Lennox_web_724 joins the room
[22:18:12] <> Jay: conflicts between two IETF WG meetings
[22:18:14] <Cullen Jennings_web_418> Actually the measure of IETF is upsetting people should be is new work being taken other places, not people who have to show up to do existing work that is started here
[22:18:17] <Suresh Krishnan_web_437> @ekr: mic line is cut. please keep your comment brief
[22:18:23] <mcr> @mnot, that's what I said in many-fine-dinners.  Cross-organization stuff (like shmoo) need plenary week.    The COSE meeting occuring in my other window, could have been done at one of our many interims.
[22:18:24] <> Oh, feel free to throw me off
[22:18:30] <Pete Resnick_web_362> @Mark: I think you'd be surprise at how many WGs people consider "cross-organization".
[22:18:45] <Suresh Krishnan_web_437> Ah. No worries.
[22:19:17] <Suresh Krishnan_web_437> @mnot: same for you as well. please keep your comment short.
[22:19:27] <Martin Thomson_web_313> different working groups might have different ideas of what slots are "golden"
[22:19:40] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> @Suresh - ah, thanks. I will be extremely brief.
[22:19:54] <mcr> Golden slots for BOFs are the ones opposite the WGs of the difficult people :-)
[22:20:32] Bob Hinden_web_654 leaves the room
[22:20:37] Bob Hinden_web_956 joins the room
[22:20:59] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> To be fair, he *was* asked to be brief
[22:21:13] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_599> brief != fast
[22:21:22] <Eliot Lear_web_749> Yes, but that shouldn't mean the same amount of words in a shorter period of time...
[22:21:30] George Michaelson_web_141 joins the room
[22:21:32] <Kyle Rose_web_873> I like .8 Ekr
[22:22:04] <Jared Mauch_web_726> +1 Kyle - i've had to call ekr.slower() before as well
[22:22:07] <> Hey y'all, let me just observe that I don't do a lot of theater commentary while you're talking.
[22:22:09] <Kyle Rose_web_873> LOL
[22:22:22] <Eliot Lear_web_749> fair point
[22:22:41] <Lars Eggert_web_864> i think MT has a CSS patch to slow ekr down :-)
[22:22:41] <mcr> what did @mnot say about how he wants it judged?
[22:22:46] <mcr> Not by the complaints, but... ?
[22:22:52] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> strength of the arguments, or argumentativeness of the supporters?
[22:22:52] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> quality of argument
[22:22:58] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> @bron - nice
[22:23:02] <Kyle Rose_web_873> @ekr Except during the plenary
[22:23:13] <mcr> quality of argument for the decision, or quality of argument in the WGs in the resulting session ?
[22:23:13] <Andrew Campling_web_551> @mnot I'm pretty sure that surveys have already looked at that
[22:23:21] <Glenn Deen_web_670> plenaries are painful no matter the TZ
[22:23:34] Jen Linkova_web_209 leaves the room
[22:23:41] <Jay Daley_web_217> Survey dashboard:
[22:23:41] Jen Linkova_web_517 joins the room
[22:23:41] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> It is very hard to read a survey as anything but a vote / opinion poll.
[22:23:58] Mayumi Ohsugi_web_539 leaves the room
[22:23:59] <Martin Thomson_web_313> I didn't hear consensus about where the model would apply, or if it even applied at all.
[22:24:01] <Jay Daley_web_217> Survey still open:
[22:24:02] <mcr> plenaries should be in NZ TZ!!!
[22:24:02] Mayumi Ohsugi_web_333 joins the room
[22:24:07] Jay Daley_web_217 leaves the room
[22:24:19] <Martin Thomson_web_313> all plenaries should use Fijian Standard Time
[22:24:26] Jay Daley_web_645 joins the room
[22:24:34] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> FiST?
[22:25:06] mcr . o O ( does Fiji have Daylight Savings Time? )
[22:25:06] Stuart Cheshire_web_189 leaves the room
[22:25:07] <Lucy Lynch_web_673> In the great wheel of IETF time covid will be over before we have a new plan.
[22:25:26] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> Kitty!
[22:25:30] <Bob Hinden_web_956> +10  or at least I hope so!
[22:25:34] <Martin Thomson_web_313> Fiji doesn't do DST - they also don't do punctuality
[22:25:37] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> We could run a show-of-hands right here (if we had more than 5 min left)
[22:25:53] Ralf Weber_web_920 leaves the room
[22:25:57] <Jonathan Lennox_web_724> Since we allow people to join the IETF from anywhere on earth, we should use "anywhere on earth" time for the plenaries.
[22:26:19] <Jonathan Lennox_web_724>
[22:26:27] Sanjay Mishra_web_120 leaves the room
[22:26:28] <mcr> @Jonathan, so we need a transform from unit circle to a plane + point at inifinity!
[22:26:37] <Suresh Krishnan_web_437> AoE only works on a "day" granularity
[22:26:37] <Ted Hardie_web_807> The point I was making was larger--think more about what pain means if you are going to do pain-based calculation.  I understand that sleep deprivation is a common pain point, but it isn't the only one.  I also believe that we are trying to use something that works well with known populations and deliberately trying to constrain the population to be considered.  I don't think it is a great match for the unknown pool case.  That doesn't mean we optimize for the current attendees (or go by bulk of attendees), but I do think it needs a bit more thought before just tweaking.
[22:26:37] Ralf Weber_web_342 joins the room
[22:26:53] Jay Daley_web_645 leaves the room
[22:26:54] Sanjay Mishra_web_982 joins the room
[22:26:58] Francois Ortolan_web_562 leaves the room
[22:27:00] Jonathan Reed_web_388 leaves the room
[22:27:00] <> did everyone else jut lose jay?
[22:27:01] Kyle Rose_web_873 leaves the room
[22:27:02] Francois Ortolan_web_875 joins the room
[22:27:03] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> I did
[22:27:03] <Jared Mauch_web_726> either lost meetecho or jay
[22:27:04] <David Schinazi_web_820> me too
[22:27:04] <Cullen Jennings_web_418> yep
[22:27:05] <Charles Eckel_web_369> yes
[22:27:05] <Robert Sparks_web_449> gone
[22:27:05] <Ted Hardie_web_807> yes
[22:27:05] <Michelle Cotton_web_374> yes
[22:27:06] <Martin Duke_web_426> yes
[22:27:06] <Aaron Falk_web_843> yeah
[22:27:07] <Joerg Ott_web_132> yes
[22:27:08] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> Ted: we need to optimise for the people we have for some level
[22:27:08] <nygren> yup
[22:27:08] Juliana Guerra_web_546 leaves the room
[22:27:09] Kyle Rose_web_712 joins the room
[22:27:09] <> MEETING OVER!
[22:27:11] Sanjay Mishra_web_982 leaves the room
[22:27:12] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_361> He was raptured?
[22:27:13] <George Michaelson_web_141> Bigger font would help heaps. People who screencast without increasing size of text... (sigh)
[22:27:14] Subir Das_web_635 leaves the room
[22:27:15] <Martin Thomson_web_313> ctrl^w
[22:27:16] Sanjay Mishra_web_868 joins the room
[22:27:18] <Joerg Ott_web_132> yes
[22:27:20] Subir Das_web_368 joins the room
[22:27:22] Jay Daley_web_953 joins the room
[22:27:22] <Michelle Cotton_web_374> heard a test
[22:27:23] <Joerg Ott_web_132> test works
[22:27:24] <David Schinazi_web_820> The Protocol Police took him
[22:27:25] <> Will Ctrl-W bring JAy back?
[22:27:25] <Martin Duke_web_426> @Ted I believe I understand you, but I am not sure how to make something actionable out of that advice
[22:27:28] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> Is NZ still there?
[22:27:31] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> Back online now
[22:27:34] <> Welcome back jay
[22:28:07] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> if we optimise for theoretical audience, we lose all identity
[22:28:09] <> It's at least representative of the people that answered
[22:28:09] <Martin Thomson_web_313> are results available anywhere?
[22:28:12] <Suresh Krishnan_web_437>
[22:28:17] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> Jay and his cat
[22:28:30] <Warren Kumari_web_821> Bye bye cat :-(
[22:28:38] <mcr> cat bye bye.
[22:28:45] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> cat is stalking around the take out the monitor
[22:29:11] <Warren Kumari_web_821> @Jay: Make the cat come back. Prioties!!!
[22:29:14] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> sorry I didn't need to be there any more
[22:30:27] <David Lawrence_web_635> I've seen plenty of surveys that didn't go through 20 people of review :)
[22:30:50] Eckard Bogenfeld_web_913 leaves the room
[22:30:52] Jaime Jimenez_web_414 leaves the room
[22:31:35] <Bob Hinden_web_956> +1 about requiring vaccinations
[22:32:13] <Suresh Krishnan_web_437> We are officially over time. Thanks all for attending.
[22:32:15] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_260> Within the EU - the vaccination certificate can be checked
[22:32:16] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> which vaccinations?  Is the russian one acceptable?  What about the chinese one?
[22:32:32] <Toerless Eckert_web_399> @Suresh: we are now entering the anrchy phase of the meeting ;-)
[22:32:37] <Suresh Krishnan_web_437> Especially the TZ disadvantaged folks.
[22:32:39] <> I think a lot of places where they "insist" it's just to insist that people represent it
[22:32:42] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> does it have to be the FIiiiiiiiizer?
[22:32:44] <Andrew Campling_web_551> Please insist on vaccinations as one option
[22:32:45] <> not to like check the passport
[22:32:51] Adrian Farrel_web_459 leaves the room
[22:32:55] Warren Kumari_web_821 leaves the room
[22:32:56] <Jared Mauch_web_726> @Bron - Whatever gets you to the country, just like people may need a VISA or other support to get in-country.
[22:33:02] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_396> Some places require an antibody test.
[22:33:17] Barbara Stark_web_414 leaves the room
[22:33:18] Bernie Hoeneisen_web_673 leaves the room
[22:33:20] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_396> That seems like a plausible compromise.
[22:33:27] Bob Hinden_web_956 leaves the room
[22:33:33] <Andrew Campling_web_551> If insist on vaccinations then hopefully no need to also insist on masks etc
[22:33:40] Zaheduzzaman Sarker_web_701 leaves the room
[22:33:40] <Martin Thomson_web_313> I might object to requiring a blood test in order to attend an IETF.
[22:33:58] <> @MT: only if you present. How else will we know you're not doping.
[22:34:08] Michael Richardson_web_914 leaves the room
[22:34:12] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> Jay is not saying what will be 112?
[22:34:20] <> 112 is Madrid
[22:34:23] <Martin Thomson_web_313> I might like it if the IETF insisted on attendees being vaccinated, but I wouldn't pair that with blood testing or any specific rules about which vaccine.
[22:34:25] <> But I think it's very likely to be cancelled
[22:34:26] Pete Resnick_web_362 leaves the room
[22:34:26] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_396> From what I've been told by friends who've been travelling there are antibody tests that only require a nasal swab.
[22:34:27] <Toerless Eckert_web_399> No, he is not, but he is explaining what the options are
[22:34:28] <Jared Mauch_web_726> I think the meta-question here is: Does the IETF have higher standards than the local regulatory requirements
[22:34:34] Tommy Pauly_web_744 leaves the room
[22:34:34] <David Schinazi_web_820> "draft performance enhancing substances found in 12% of draft authors" -- news at 8
[22:34:51] <Jonathan Lennox_web_724> Especially right after the scotch BOF
[22:34:59] <Martin Thomson_web_313> David: you can test for alcohol with a breathalyzer
[22:35:02] <Jonathan Lennox_web_724> Performance at what is is an open question
[22:35:06] Peter Koch_web_808 leaves the room
[22:35:25] <> Actualy, it's not 100% clear that we can require vaccination in some parts of the US. Don't ask.
[22:35:26] <Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_361> Not in Florida, you can't
[22:35:27] Wes Hardaker_web_274 leaves the room
[22:35:31] <Andrew Campling_web_551> Okay to be more restrictive, just don't schedule IETF in Florida!
[22:35:47] <Jonathan Lennox_web_724> Good advice in general, Orlando was a lousy venue
[22:36:00] <John Scudder_web_755> +1
[22:36:04] <Jared Mauch_web_726> just remember, everything is legal in New Jersey </hamilton>
[22:36:11] <Martin Thomson_web_313> If I don't have to go to Florida again, I'd be happy.
[22:36:17] <Jared Mauch_web_726> oh it ate my faux html tag
[22:36:27] <Jared Mauch_web_726> </hamilton>
[22:36:41] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @ekr me too
[22:36:43] <Jared Mauch_web_726> < / hamilton >
[22:36:45] <Andrew Campling_web_551> +1 to vaccination requirement irrespective of local regs
[22:36:59] <Philipp Tiesel_web_311> It is also legally difficult in the EU as asking for medical data without legal reason is highly problematic
[22:37:09] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> We set expectations for behaviour; I see little difference. We need to provide an environment that is safe and conducive to the work.
[22:37:09] <Glenn Deen_web_670> +1 to vaccination being a must (or clear test in past 72 hrs)
[22:37:22] <Martin Duke_web_426> For those of you who are not on manycouches, you can comment on our draft on github:
[22:37:25] Erik Nygren_web_187 leaves the room
[22:37:31] <Jared Mauch_web_726> I was wondering what the EU requirements are around the IETF possibly handling my medical information and if that's something we want to take on
[22:37:40] <Martin Duke_web_426> there are already issues for meeting start times and the 1 wk/2 wk question
[22:37:43] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_260> @Philipp - only as an employer, and only if your not interfacing with external people.
[22:37:45] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> Questions of legality are for counsel, not speculation.
[22:37:50] Lars Eggert_web_864 leaves the room
[22:37:56] Cathy Aronson_web_523 leaves the room
[22:37:56] <Jared Mauch_web_726> the more strict we are here, the more hurdles we may make for ourselves
[22:38:03] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> yeah, and the less inclusive we are
[22:38:08] <Glenn Deen_web_670> I do worry what happens if people do become posittive at an IETF meeting.   Will they be able to travel home? Would they need to stay in their hotel room for a couple of weeks?
[22:38:12] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_260> As a host of a restaurant / disco - you can always turn back people, you don't like for undisclosed reasons...
[22:38:13] Jason Livingood_web_546 leaves the room
[22:38:28] <Mark Nottingham_web_908> Sorry, that's bs. Setting rules to assure that people can attend safely is not anti-inclusion.
[22:38:28] John Scudder_web_755 leaves the room
[22:38:29] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_396> Given that we're worried about restricting participation from some places, we have to be conscious of vaccine availability.
[22:38:44] <Jared Mauch_web_726> Glenn - that's always an issue regardless of pandemic though, been at conferences where someone i know had to go to ER and get surgery before
[22:38:49] <Jen Linkova_web_517> and what about people with medical conditions? when doctors do not recommend the vaccination/the recommended vaccine is not fully availble in the country yet?
[22:38:58] <Andrew Campling_web_551> @Jonathan true, but hopefully an issue in short-term  
[22:39:02] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> Jen, exactly
[22:39:10] <Rich Salz_web_149> Raising the bar to attend seems counter to other interests of what the IETF is aiming for.
[22:39:31] <Suresh Krishnan_web_437> I will cut off the mic line now
[22:39:31] <Martin Thomson_web_313> time check: we are way over time
[22:39:36] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_396> @Andrew not likely to be fully resolved before July 2022.
[22:39:36] <Karen O'Donoghue_web_356> I'm struggling with the different requirements between a technically productive meeting and a cost effective meeting for the IETF.
[22:39:40] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> if we add additional conditions over the health advice of the government bodies in the source and destination countries....
[22:39:43] <Jared Mauch_web_726> +1 Rich, not saying government is perfect, but the requirements to get in-country should really be what we are looking to
[22:39:45] <Andrew Campling_web_551> @Jen If someone has medical issues then probably unwise to attend just now anyway?
[22:39:49] <Suresh Krishnan_web_437> Giving people a chance for a bio break before the plenary
[22:39:53] Martin Duke_web_426 leaves the room
[22:39:54] <Cullen Jennings_web_418> I know you are collecting data which employers ae going to allow and pay for travel to 112, but it seems to me that will set an upper bound on number of people that will come
[22:39:57] <Glenn Deen_web_670> @jared - Canada for instance requires travelers to have an in country quarantine plan before arriving.
[22:39:57] <Jared Mauch_web_726> thank you Suresh :-)
[22:40:10] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> It think the discussion should continue at manycouches or attendees
[22:40:16] <Jen Linkova_web_517> I'm not sure we shall go down that road at all..what's next - a medical certificate about being in a stable mental condition? ;)
[22:40:24] <Jared Mauch_web_726> +100 Jen
[22:40:33] <Jared Mauch_web_726> <- would not get one
[22:40:37] <Andrew Campling_web_551> @Jen that would be more tricky! :)
[22:40:44] <Nigel Hickson_web_804> In a hybrid scenario we should be careful not to raise bar too far otherwise becomes a national meeting.
[22:40:58] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_260> run an IETF in a country, where free vaccination even to foreigners are offered..
[22:41:03] Behcet Sarikaya_web_874 leaves the room
[22:41:07] Christopher Wood_web_251 leaves the room
[22:41:11] Ted Hardie_web_807 leaves the room
[22:41:11] Eric Rescorla_web_671 leaves the room
[22:41:11] Markus Amend_web_854 leaves the room
[22:41:12] <Lucy Lynch_web_673> thanks
[22:41:13] Theresa Enghardt_web_849 leaves the room
[22:41:13] Lee-Berkeley Shaw_web_710 leaves the room
[22:41:13] Francois Ortolan_web_875 leaves the room
[22:41:14] Rich Salz_web_149 leaves the room
[22:41:14] Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay_web_440 leaves the room
[22:41:14] Michael StJohns_web_808 leaves the room
[22:41:14] Barry Leiba_web_349 leaves the room
[22:41:14] Ole Trøan_web_952 leaves the room
[22:41:14] <Eliot Lear_web_749> Thanks Suresh
[22:41:14] BEHCET SARIKAYA leaves the room
[22:41:15] Joerg Ott_web_132 leaves the room
[22:41:15] Jay Daley_web_953 leaves the room
[22:41:16] Robert Sparks_web_449 leaves the room
[22:41:16] Andrew Campling_web_551 leaves the room
[22:41:17] Colin Perkins_web_975 leaves the room
[22:41:17] Subir Das_web_368 leaves the room
[22:41:17] Greg Wood_web_908 leaves the room
[22:41:17] Philipp Tiesel_web_311 leaves the room
[22:41:18] Mark Nottingham_web_908 leaves the room
[22:41:18] Jen Linkova_web_517 leaves the room
[22:41:18] Cullen Jennings_web_418 leaves the room
[22:41:18] Sean Croghan_web_737 leaves the room
[22:41:18] Glenn Deen_web_670 leaves the room
[22:41:19] <Nigel Hickson_web_804> Thanks
[22:41:19] Eliot Lear_web_749 leaves the room
[22:41:19] Suresh Krishnan_web_437 leaves the room
[22:41:20] Wataru Ohgai_web_231 leaves the room
[22:41:21] Mayumi Ohsugi_web_333 leaves the room
[22:41:21] John Klensin_web_565 leaves the room
[22:41:21] Stephen McQuistin_web_650 leaves the room
[22:41:21] <Bron Gondwana_web_796> you're welcome - tanks
[22:41:22] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_260> thanks
[22:41:22] Chris Box_web_850 leaves the room
[22:41:22] Michelle Cotton_web_374 leaves the room
[22:41:22] Dhruv Dhody_web_914 leaves the room
[22:41:23] Korry Luke_web_202 leaves the room
[22:41:23] Kyle Rose_web_712 leaves the room
[22:41:23] Sanjay Mishra_web_868 leaves the room
[22:41:24] Jared Mauch_web_726 leaves the room
[22:41:24] Aaron Falk_web_843 leaves the room
[22:41:26] Lucy Lynch_web_673 leaves the room
[22:41:26] Jon Peterson_web_446 leaves the room
[22:41:26] Jonathan Lennox_web_724 leaves the room
[22:41:26] Bron Gondwana_web_796 leaves the room
[22:41:26] Charles Eckel_web_369 leaves the room
[22:41:26] Richard Scheffenegger_web_260 leaves the room
[22:41:27] Rüdiger Volk_web_318 leaves the room
[22:41:27] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_396> @Richard vaccination takes time to be effective
[22:41:28] Olaf Kolkman_web_876 leaves the room
[22:41:28] Amelia Andersdotter_web_363 leaves the room
[22:41:29] Jesus Martin_web_621 leaves the room
[22:41:30] John C Klensin leaves the room
[22:41:30] Karen O'Donoghue_web_356 leaves the room
[22:41:31] Julien Maisonneuve_web_600 leaves the room
[22:41:34] Jonathan Hoyland_web_396 leaves the room
[22:41:38] Aaron Gable_web_528 leaves the room
[22:41:38] Justin Iurman_web_433 leaves the room
[22:41:43] Frode Kileng_web_739 leaves the room
[22:41:46] Simon Romano_web_500 leaves the room
[22:41:48] Philip Eardley_web_682 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Paolo Saviano_web_488 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Laura Nugent_web_917 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Mwende Njiraini_web_936 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Alessandro Amirante_web_738 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Phillip Hallam-Baker_web_361 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Mirja Kühlewind_web_599 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Alexa Morris_web_852 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Al Morton_web_490 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Avri Doria_web_550 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Ralf Weber_web_342 leaves the room
[22:41:49] George Michaelson_web_141 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Toerless Eckert_web_399 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Nigel Hickson_web_804 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Eric Kinnear_web_563 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Lisa Winkler_web_160 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Martin Thomson_web_313 leaves the room
[22:41:49] David Lawrence_web_635 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Magnus Westerlund_web_239 leaves the room
[22:41:49] Taiji Kimura_web_560 leaves the room
[22:41:49] David Schinazi_web_820 leaves the room
[22:43:12] leaves the room
[22:45:17] meetecho-alexamirante leaves the room
[22:45:42] Meetecho leaves the room
[22:56:27] frodek leaves the room
[23:02:49] mcr leaves the room
Powered by ejabberd - robust, scalable and extensible XMPP server Powered by Erlang Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional Valid CSS!