Tuesday, March 9, 2021< ^ >
Room Configuration
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[14:25:16] <George Michaelson_web_167> codiMD is not working. It says I have to login
[14:25:38] <George Michaelson_web_167> oh well.. granted rights, its fine now
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[14:28:15] <Robert Moskowitz> Before we get started,,,
If there is one thing I miss in F2F is grabbing a table, a few people, and pulling out some paper to draw out a protocol/stack.
One tool I have not seen here is a small group whiteboard.
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[14:29:36] <Joel Halpern_web_914> There were whiteboards in the gather by the small tables last time.
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[14:29:46] <Joel Halpern_web_914> I have not had time to visit gather this time.
[14:29:47] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> there is something like a whiteboard with codimd in the
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[14:30:03] <Joel Halpern_web_914> I am sure it is not as easy to draw on as paper :-)
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[14:30:38] <Joel Halpern_web_914> We do not yet seem to have chairs?
[14:30:42] <Robert Moskowitz> I have a USB drawing tablet; I would want to use that.
[14:30:43] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> it is more difficult than drawing on paper with a large pencil, but easier than writing .docx and attaching them by email
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[14:31:17] <Bob Hinden_web_304> Any w.g. chairs in the room?
[14:31:34] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> Sound started?  I dont hear.
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[14:33:38] <George Michaelson_web_167> No sound here either
[14:33:40] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> "USB drawing tablet [to draw on a board]" - is a great idea.  I have an electronic pen which comes with some software.
[14:33:50] <Jason Livingood_web_285> :headphones:yes
[14:33:50] <Joerg Ott_web_955> yes
[14:33:50] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> I hear someone
[14:33:51] <George Michaelson_web_167> Yes. sound coming through
[14:33:53] <Kyle Rose_web_310> yep
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[14:33:59] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> sound just started
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[14:35:15] <Jim Fenton_web_177> Are there standards for USB tablets, electronic pens, etc. or would you have to have a particular one?
[14:35:21] <George Michaelson_web_167> I'm doing some notes in CodiMD
[14:35:29] <> Looking for a minute taker
[14:35:33] <George Michaelson_web_167> I dont know I'd call them "minutes"
[14:35:44] <> :-)
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[14:35:56] <> George can I take it that you are up for it?
[14:36:24] <Charles Eckel_web_877> yes
[14:36:26] <Jonathan Reed_web_201> we can hear you
[14:36:31] <slm> and see you
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[14:36:50] <Charles Eckel_web_877> ok
[14:37:14] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> "Are there standards for USB tablets, electronic pens, etc. or would you have to have a particular one?" - it's a great question.  In the field of USB tablets and pens I think Wacom is probably a monopoly(?).  There are comm standards for comm between pens and computer, but not across the Internet (not that I am aware of).
[14:37:39] <Robert Moskowitz> I have a 20 yr old Wacom USB 1, that works just fine on any system I attach it to. I used it back for some HIP brainstorm sessions way, way back in time...
[14:38:31] <Robert Moskowitz> We were in the lobby, taking turns using the tablet and building things up.
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[14:42:31] <Robert Moskowitz> Such a tool would help side meetings, for example.
[14:43:12] <Robert Moskowitz> Consider it like asking the Secretariat for a flip pad and pens...
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[14:44:29] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> but, inclusiveness: such a device is still expensive.  One should be allowed to write on the board even if s/he had to type on a kbd or sketch on a mousepad.
[14:45:09] <slm> (what was the "free participation option" for this meeting?)
[14:45:09] <Jim Fenton_web_177> A little difficult to ask the Secretariat for a Wacom pad when you're remote, but I get the idea.
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[14:45:59] <Sandra Murphy_web_647> maybe the "audio" option on the IETF agenda?
[14:46:06] <Jim Fenton_web_177> slm:
[14:46:12] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> ""free participation option" for this meeting?" - while registering, one could select an option between full price, mid price, and free 'waiver'.  I took advantage this time of it.
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[14:46:13] <Robert Moskowitz> You can always use your mouse to draw.  I have done that a lot of times.
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[14:47:40] <Jason Livingood_web_731> So perhaps soften it to recommending free if possible
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[14:47:48] <Robert Moskowitz> My experience is the "eraser head" pointing device is much easier to control for free-hand drawing than a touchpad.
[14:48:31] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> The cost structure: one can always make a cost structure in the way one wants to.  MAkes think of recent news where cost structures are made for apparently value-less valuables (a post on twitter, or so).
[14:49:03] <Martin Duke_web_265> The "anything that is productive at IETF" language is a little too loose IMO
[14:49:26] <slm> saw the "waiver" option, but did not investigate the process - will it scale for IETF staff as much as open-to-everyone-with-Internet-connectivity?  automated to grant without IETF staff action?
[14:49:27] <Robert Moskowitz> That is why I have stayed with Lenovos.  I like those little eraser heads.  Now on with "free is never free".
[14:49:44] <Martin Duke_web_265> I don't think we let nonpaying attendees into the meeting area to participate in informal discussions, for example
[14:50:11] <slm> another typical related event, at least for in-person meetings, has been IEPG
[14:50:23] <Jim Fenton_web_177> slm: I'm not sure whether it's automated or requires staff action, but don't think it matters.
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[14:51:36] <Alissa Cooper_web_944> the fee waiver process is as automated as the rest of the registration system. there is no vetting of applicants.
[14:51:54] <George Michaelson_web_167> IEPG?
[14:51:57] <George Michaelson_web_167> rootops?
[14:51:57] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> I dont know what vetting means, but ther eis a human in the loop of automation
[14:51:58] <slm> @alissa: thanks.
[14:51:59] <George Michaelson_web_167> RSSAC?
[14:52:04] <George Michaelson_web_167> ISOC fellows stuff?
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[14:53:33] <slm> there is a process in in-person meetings (or has been) for getting approval to use IETF meeting space, has to be IETF related, etc.
[14:54:14] <Alissa Cooper_web_944>
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[14:57:54] <Charles Eckel_web_877> RFC3935 is the one I had in mind when I was at the mic.
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[15:01:18] <Robert Moskowitz> WRT "emergency".  Been there, done that.  In the hospital Sat night before my flight to Asia week before IETF in Bangkok '18.
Secretariat was very good on refunding my fee.  Delta insurance I bought paid quickly; United was a pain.
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[15:01:53] <George Michaelson_web_167> I would be very uncomfortable with a realpolitik which said "if the US is ok, we go ahead"
[15:02:03] <George Michaelson_web_167> Seriously. Don't go there.
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[15:02:58] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_637> Okay will check RFC3935 again and hopefully propose something simple and short
[15:03:06] <Jim Fenton_web_177> I'm concerned that "80% of regular attendees" might be met by a small number of countries, and not support IETF's diversity goals.
[15:03:20] <George Michaelson_web_167> AU DFAT does one.for all economies worldwide
[15:04:44] <Jason Livingood_web_781> “Insolvency” is pretty extreme. Maybe more like ‘significant financial issues’ or something (minor point)
[15:05:54] <Robert Moskowitz> We all had travel cancellation challenges last year.  It is not IETF's roll to cover our travel costs on cancellation.
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[15:06:48] <Joerg Ott_web_955> Who is supposed to determine what is a good and what is a bad decision?
[15:07:09] <Joerg Ott_web_955> This just won’t work.
[15:07:53] <Jason Livingood_web_781> So maybe generalize and say the LLC should use relevant travel advisory sources and not over specify
[15:07:58] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> Instead of UKFO and USFO, make it a list of FOs...?
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[15:08:42] <Niels ten Oever_web_161> Hi all - sorry to be coming a bit late to this discussion - but I wanted to ask whether this WG considered whether we should go back to physical meeting at all, considering the environmental impact of the industry in general and IETF in specific? Or perhaps only do one in person meeting per year and others online?
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[15:10:08] <Joel Halpern_web_914> @Niels ten Oever - In my opinion, the longer we go without meetings, the more deficit in effective interaction we accumulate.  The WG has not had significant discussion on the topic.  There have been suggestions to move one meeeting per year to strictly on line.
[15:10:17] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> "environmental impact" - this is a very good question; in some of my moods some times I think that is probably very important to consider.
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[15:11:08] <Martin Duke_web_265> @Niels that is not in scope at this time
[15:11:32] <Niels ten Oever_web_161> @Joel - the longer we go without physical meeting, we might also get more adjusted to only meetings. But this is just speculation. I think it is relevant to consider that participation is going up, and compensating for regional bias that normally occurs with changing continents.
[15:11:50] <Niels ten Oever_web_161> *only online meetings
[15:12:40] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_637> I believe we will naturally see different dynamics between in person and remote when we go back to some for of in-person meeting
[15:12:41] <Niels ten Oever_web_161> @Martin - what would be the right venue to discuss this? (I rly hope you won't say ietf@ietf)
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[15:12:59] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_637> but it hard to reason about what will happen without any experience
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[15:13:18] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_637> I hope we will have that discussion after the first in-person meeting again
[15:13:35] <Martin Duke_web_265> @Niels the charter says once we finish the other items we can discuss changes to the meeting rhythm
[15:13:40] <Alissa Cooper_web_944> @Niels, this WG is the right venue for the discussion, but per the charter it will be taken up after the other work items
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[15:14:31] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_512> travel advisories change routinely.  Some times the best travel advisory comes from where one does not expect... But here the paragraph is said to maintain a meeting (not cancel) when there is no particular negative travel advisory from 2 FOs.  That is to check absence of advisory.  That is difficult to implement (to check for absence).
[15:14:38] <Niels ten Oever_web_161> @Alissa @Marin Thanks - excellent - will stick around, listen, and learn :)
[15:16:20] <Jordi Palet Martinez_web_871> @George I prefer AU advisory than US ... but anyway, my point is that "WE DON'T NEED ANY" in an RFC, that the LLC thing, we don't want to micromanage them. We should say just they must look into a sufficient number of advisory sources. They will probably look at least to the US ones if the insurance refer to that, but others need to be taken into consideration. Adding specific countries in an RFC, is like having specific router vendors names in a routing RFC. We don't want that
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[15:18:08] <George Michaelson_web_167> Martin made a case, it is useful to be clear which ones apply, for contract management. I might disagree, but his point was it added clarity. you argue its discriminatory, I can't entirly disagree
[15:18:11] <Robert Moskowitz> Hackathon is another area where Whiteboard would be good.
[15:18:38] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_637> there are whiteboard in the hackathon gather room
[15:19:07] <Robert Moskowitz> That support freehand drawing?  I missed that option.
[15:19:20] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_637> I actually didn't try it out
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[15:22:09] <Alexa Morris_web_129> @Robert Moskowitz - yes, the hackathon whiteboards support freehand drawing.
[15:22:22] <Jordi Palet Martinez_web_871> @George, the point is: even if we don't have this document becoming an RFC, the LLC will need to take in consideration advisories cited by the insurance contracts. So removing those from the document doesn't change the binding of the LLC to those insurance contracts, and makes the document neutral. We shouldn't mention in any document anything specific to country a or b, that's easy. Even as examples is really bad. Same with languages. As I said in the list, tomorrow our "main" language could become english (or Spanish) then we need to change the document? it doesn't make any sense. Same for the advisory, tomorrow US or UK become "more" biased. should we then change the document? it may be too late to agree on that if somehting happens ... and US ask for cancelling meetings in "country B" because political or commercial reasons
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[15:23:02] <Martin Duke_web_265> @Jordi I think some less specific text could work, though I'm going to need some suggested wording. Something more vague will make future cancellation decisions more subjective, however
[15:23:59] <Jordi Palet Martinez_web_871> @Martin, they are *absolutely subjective* to US and UK governments with the current language!
[15:24:01] <Martin Duke_web_265> What about Ireland? My perception is that Ireland is an Anglophone country that doesn't have a ton of foreign policy rivalries that could lead to politicized decisions.
[15:24:53] <Jordi Palet Martinez_web_871> My point is still we don't need to cite any country, just explicitly tell the LLC that they need to look into several and diverse advisories.
[15:25:05] <Rich Salz_web_368> I'm sympathetic to what Jordi is saying, but on the other hand ignoring the fact that the IETF LLC is an American Corporation is pretending the sun will stop rising.
[15:25:13] <Martin Duke_web_265> @jordi that's a different axis of subjectivity. all safety judgments by a government are subjective, but the *LLC's actions* are purely objective; less specific language means they will have to pick an authority, which allows them to game the selection.
[15:25:43] <Jordi Palet Martinez_web_871> If we look for an alternative country, I think Switzerland is in general very well recognized for that
[15:27:21] <Jordi Palet Martinez_web_871> @Martin "several diverse advisories", not just one makes it less subjective and in any case, this needs to be explained to the community if we ever have this situation. So the LLC will still be able to say "US advisory said this, UK said that, Swiss said x, China said b" so we took this decision "xxx".
[15:27:27] <Martin Duke_web_265> Switzerland seems to have a site in english, which is good.
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[15:28:23] <Jordi Palet Martinez_web_871> What is clear is that the LLC will "also" look into insurance contractual terms, and those may say "US", but that's different than having it in an RFC.
[15:29:13] <Martin Duke_web_265> well according to the draft the LLC is not supposed to consider the financial impact to IETF of cancellation
[15:29:25] <Martin Duke_web_265> so it should not cancel solely due to insurance considerations
[15:30:34] <Jordi Palet Martinez_web_871> @Rich, I disagree that because IETF is an US LLC is binding our RFCs to that. It may be binding the LLC if the insurance has  contractual condition based on that, but tomorrow, we can have an insurance from a French company, or an Australian one, and they will have typically, different terms on what advisories are bounding to them
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[15:30:48] <Martin Duke_web_265> Ah, no not all Swiss travel advisories have been translated into English
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[15:31:15] <Jordi Palet Martinez_web_871> Google translator works sufficiently even if they are in French
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