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[04:53:07] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Hello
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[04:55:08] <Martin Duke> test
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[04:59:07] <sftcd> is it too soon to be happy this is the last 0500 UTC meeting for a while?
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[04:59:16] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> yes
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[04:59:25] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> It goes on till 0700 UTC
[04:59:28] <sftcd> bummer
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[05:00:17] <Martin Duke> is there audio I'm missing?
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[05:00:25] <Alexandre Petrescu> never too soon to be happy :-)
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[05:00:31] <Mallory Knodel> Doesn't look like anyone is sending audio
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[05:00:35] <Alexandre Petrescu> audio someone hears? I dont
[05:00:37] <mcr> @Amelia, I have just uploaded slides.
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[05:00:47] <mcr> @Suresh, slides just uploaded.
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[05:01:44] <Matthew Gillmore> Thanks for the interesting content to help keep me awake until the next meeting at 2:30am ET
[05:01:44] <Amelia Andersdotter> @mcr thanks!
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[05:03:40] <Dan York> I can be a backup Jabber scribe for when Charles is presenting
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[05:03:59] <Charles Eckel> great, was just thinking about that
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[05:04:36] <Amelia Andersdotter> thanks both!
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[05:06:05] <Larry Masinter> time for general discussion?
[05:06:27] Corinne Cath joins the room
[05:06:43] <mcr> Also, I expect half of my 15 minutes to be discussion.
[05:06:45] <Ted Lemon> Amelia, your mic is a bit soft.
[05:06:48] <Larry Masinter> that's fine thanks
[05:07:29] <behcet> my audio is terrible
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[05:08:10] <JcK> @behcet: Fine here, fwiw
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[05:08:23] <Charles Eckel> good here too
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[05:10:21] <Matthew Gillmore> fee waver should not be burdensome
[05:10:26] <Meetecho> Behcet Sarikaya: if you're using Safari, we've seen reports that the newest version (especially if you're on Big Sur) causes decoding issues for recvonly audio streams, that result in heavily robotic audio
[05:11:25] <Ted Lemon> I haven't had an issue with that on Big Sur.
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[05:12:06] <Meetecho> Ted Lemon: we were able to replicate it ourselves earler this week, with a few other WebRTC apps as well. It may have been fixed in the meanwhile. Thanks for the heads up!
[05:13:12] <sftcd> +1 adopt, no brainer
[05:13:33] <Alexey Melnikov> +1
[05:13:45] <Brian Trammell> +1
[05:13:55] <Dhruv Dhody> +1
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[05:14:40] <sftcd> wrt cap, IETF could figure out a cap, wouldn't like LLC to be able to do that
[05:16:13] <Corinne Cath> What data is there about misuse? Is that an assumption or a known?
[05:16:43] <Rich Salz> Good points about emphasizing the positive nature of paying, Ted +1
[05:16:47] <Martin Duke> there is no evidence of this, but there some bad possibilities. responses to these should not be constrained by an RFC
[05:17:19] <Rich Salz> The only data we have so far is Jay's slides from the plenary.
[05:17:36] <Charles Eckel> If you want something taken to the MIC for you, start it with "MIC:" or "mic:" please
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[05:17:57] <Alexandre Petrescu> one applies for waiver and then approver approves, or not
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[05:18:15] <behcet> I also have Big Sur but today my audio sucks
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[05:18:18] <sftcd> I'd be fine allowing the LLC to introduce any lower fee than the standard, e.g. for sole traders, students, etc.
[05:18:31] <behcet> so I have to leave
[05:18:48] <Meetecho> behcet: in that case, you may be hitting the Safari issue I mentioned. Do you have a different browser you can use'
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[05:19:30] <Corinne Cath> +mirjam
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[05:19:36] <Ted Lemon> +1
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[05:20:11] <Jay Daley_947> @corinne There's no data on abuse because we have no way of detecting it.
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[05:21:06] <Ted Lemon> fang companies?
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[05:21:18] <sftcd> someone could be working for a FANG but totally not going with the company line though:-)
[05:21:22] <Martin Duke> facebook, apple, amazon, netflix, google
[05:21:36] <Ted Lemon> Oh my, that's hilarious!
[05:21:52] <Alexandre Petrescu> There might be some other distinctor to be found, than misuse.  There might be a figure to be found in how many waved donated.
[05:22:03] <Larry Masinter> charge a low fee and a high fee; if you pay a high fee you get a receipt which you can submit as an expense; otherwise no
[05:22:04] <sftcd> @ted: aren't you now a fanger? :-)
[05:22:13] <mcr> and ... if we want fire to be nasally fitted!
[05:22:23] <Ted Lemon> I have indeed anfangt.
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[05:22:41] <sftcd> can we autotranslate to middle-english?
[05:22:53] <Ted Lemon> (begun, in German)
[05:22:55] <Corinne Cath> How does doing this break the individual participation myth?
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[05:23:07] <Rich Salz> +1 Corinne
[05:23:16] <Marco Hogewoning> we're a not-for-profit right? I mean, we have our expenses but...
[05:23:28] <mcr> we'd like to say that those who participate on behalf of their employer should have the employer pay.
[05:23:33] <Ted Lemon> If anything, the fact that I work for a FANG company actually means I have _less_ time to participate in IETF, FWIW.
[05:23:43] <Ted Lemon> I would not be here without an individual wish to be here.
[05:23:43] <mcr> @Marco, non-profits have to run in the black.
[05:23:52] <sftcd> off topic, but I do myself participate as an individual, because my university couldn't give a crap
[05:24:02] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @Corinne if we have different fees for individual vs corporate attendee...
[05:24:30] <Corinne Cath> But you already do
[05:24:46] <Corinne Cath> I for instance pay student fee
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[05:25:42] <sftcd> not sure if that was for me, but my university won't give a crap no matter how little I pay (so long as I find the €€ somewhere that's not from them;-)
[05:25:47] <Marco Hogewoning> I throw some RIR fees in the hat - if you are a RIPE NCC member, thanks for allowing me to attend
[05:25:48] <mcr> yes, we already have that. But, we don't pretend that you represent your academic institution.
[05:25:51] <Rich Salz> +1 to Mirja, the product is RFC's.  The product is not profit-making (sic) meetings like say RSA or the old Interop
[05:26:01] <Amelia Andersdotter> it doesn't need to be activity oriented ("student", "sole trader", etc.). it could just be "i can pay a lower fee", "i can pay a regular fee", "i can pay a high fee".
[05:26:21] <sftcd> someday I might try pretend to represent TCD, just for a laugh - be hard to find a topic where they'd notice though
[05:26:22] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @Corinne, that is rather different as the issue is that if we create an individual class, we are implicitly creating a non individual class...
[05:26:32] <Ted Lemon> Part of the problem for me is that I can only pay whatever the lowest fee is that's applicable to me. So it's very useful to have guidance for what fee applies to me.
[05:26:50] <Bron Gondwana> You're all individ... I'M NOT
[05:26:50] <Amelia Andersdotter> @ted good point
[05:26:52] <Ted Lemon> This time I registered late, and paid the late registration price, which was perfectly reasonable, but arguably I should have registered early.
[05:26:53] <Alexandre Petrescu> I _want_ to pay the tshirt
[05:26:55] <Corinne Cath> So problem solved - we all pay different fees and pretend we don’t. It’s just scaling up the current myth.
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[05:27:02] <Ted Lemon> :)
[05:27:03] <mcr> WE ARE BRON!
[05:27:06] <Alexey Melnikov> Maybe concentrate in the document on NOT restricting LLC choices for financing meetings
[05:27:06] <sftcd> @amelia: I agree - if and when the LLC figure out a lower-fee scheme, there's a bunch of interesting discussion to be had
[05:27:14] <Bron Gondwana> I'm Bron and so is my wife
[05:27:16] <Marco Hogewoning> Guess the point I'm making is that I'm a not-for-profit myself, should probably entitle me to lower fees or even a waiver?
[05:27:25] <Jay Daley_947> "scaling up the current myth" - another IETF t-shirt
[05:27:43] <sftcd> wait, there are 947 different Jay's ?
[05:27:49] <Ted Lemon> At least.
[05:28:01] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @Jay... and a new IETF motto is born
[05:28:03] <Marco Hogewoning> @jay can start a merch stand to make a few extra $$$
[05:28:08] <Corinne Cath> WE STAN BRON
[05:28:09] <mcr> WE ARE ALL JAY!
[05:28:19] <Alexandre Petrescu> :-) :-)
[05:28:21] <mcr> All your JAY BELONG TO US!
[05:28:22] <Bron Gondwana> Jesuisjay
[05:28:25] <George Michaelson> IETF IPR claim lodged against the following tee shirt drafts
[05:29:14] <sftcd> good draft
[05:29:27] <Corinne Cath> Well I just figured out how finance my next IRL meeting- come place your orders now! :tshirt::tshirt::womans_clothes:
[05:30:02] <Jay Daley_947> We had a t-shirt request earlier this week https://www.customink.com/lab?cid=pnv0-00cc-a5un
[05:30:09] <Marco Hogewoning> charge a 1 USD fee one-off to anybody running any lf the protocols; if only 1% pays we'll never have to worry again ;)
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[05:31:07] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @Corinne.... I also have a plan...
[05:31:36] <Matthew Gillmore> Not sure that was his quote....
[05:31:59] <Alexandre Petrescu> 'short'?
[05:33:13] <sftcd> we actually did some jabber only interims in the past, maybe about 2005 for DKIM? - worked ok'ish, doubt it'd be considered ok now
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[05:33:36] <Bron Gondwana> HTTP/4.0 402 insert coin to continue
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[05:37:30] <JcK> @sftcd: Jabber is not really asynchronous in the way I think she is using the term
[05:37:34] <Rich Salz> HAHA @Bron
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[05:37:48] <Jim Fenton> @Jay that T shirt is so appropriate. DMARC comes to mind especially.
[05:38:09] <sftcd> @jck: true, just noting that audio isn't necessarily a MUST
[05:38:25] <Toerless Eckert> I am missing the coffee threads on the attendance list
[05:38:27] <Alexandre Petrescu> asynchronicity between an email discussion and a chat discussion, I suspect.
[05:38:47] <Rich Salz> Better way to raise money is charge people to keep re-using HISTORIC protocols.  Enterprises and their customers will pay ... millions of dollars.
[05:38:52] <JcK> @sftcd: definitely.  Nor video, of course.
[05:39:08] <Corinne Cath> Shared narratives are real (see also individual participation myth) :joy:
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[05:39:42] <Toerless Eckert> @Rich: reminds me when router replacement parts that ran out of production rised in prices for the poor customers who could not move to new equipment ;-)
[05:39:45] <Alexey Melnikov> @Rich: we will charge you if you DON'T come to IETF to defend your historic protocol ;-)?
[05:39:48] <sureshk@jabber.org> RFC5241
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[05:40:18] <George Michaelson> give the IETF to ISC, Beg Rick Adams to fund it. Problem solved!
[05:40:36] <Rich Salz> yes IETF needs to adopt ICANN trademark dispute procedures.
[05:40:44] <George Michaelson> (mind you, we'd have to go back to Ascii only)
[05:40:47] <Rich Salz> Rick will fund for a year or two until you figure out how to self-fund
[05:40:47] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @Corinne, myths can also get in the way.
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[05:41:00] <Marco Hogewoning> @george maybe Fadi can buy us?
[05:41:09] <sftcd> @phb: are you teeing up a mythbusters gag?
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[05:41:13] <Corinne Cath> I know - that’s like half the conclusion of my phd abt the ietf
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[05:41:15] <George Michaelson> @Marco tish-boom!
[05:41:26] <JcK> George: no, we'd get to map everything to Punycode encoding.
[05:41:44] <Larry Masinter> allow for 'tourists'
[05:41:46] <George Michaelson> "all RFCs to be submitted as a sendmail .cf file"
[05:41:59] <Ted Lemon> That would certainly reduce the chaff...
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[05:42:17] <Marco Hogewoning> @george "make internet"?
[05:42:42] <George Michaelson> @marco out of swap space. killed
[05:42:48] <Rich Salz> I would love to see more documents littered with "R$"  I'll get the trademark and make ... millions
[05:42:51] <Toerless Eckert> @George: sendmail.cf: RFCs are substitution programs translating problems into solutions ?
[05:43:53] <Mirja Kühlewind> @marco catching up on the chat: it doesn't matter if you are a non-profit or not. If you can pay, you should; if you can't, the fee should not stop you from participating; that's why we have a free waiver
[05:44:36] <JcK> This gives me a strange sense of deju vu -- do work on mailing lists with good guidelines about organization and behavior.
[05:44:36] <RjS> rjsparks@unformal consolidated % make internet
make: *** No rule to make target `internet'.  Stop.
[05:44:46] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @Corinne, are you close to submitting? I see you are also at Oxford but there was no OII in my day.
[05:44:52] <Rich Salz> +1 Mirja
[05:44:56] <Mirja Kühlewind> Also the late fee is a possibility to co-sponsor the IETF by paying more
[05:45:09] <sftcd> I'm in queue to say: yep try it out, a bounded "meeting" time might help with the problem where github discussion excludes people who don't know that then is a good time to be logged into github
[05:45:19] <Rich Salz> And fits with the "themed sponsor" that Jay talked about at the plenary
[05:45:22] <sftcd> if someone else wants to say that 1st, great and I'll get outta the queue
[05:45:26] <Ted Lemon> scope creep!!!
[05:45:27] <mcr> the tools are all out there, but most people just don't know how to use them.
[05:45:35] <Corinne Cath> Hahaha @phil a definitive phd submission date is also a myth
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[05:45:50] <Larry Masinter> q+
[05:45:59] <sftcd> @corinne: Dr. Niels might disagree
[05:46:11] <Rich Salz> gotta click on the "raise hand" icon @Larry
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[05:46:21] <Rich Salz> (upper left corner)
[05:46:47] <Corinne Cath> Having been his phd secondant, I can guarantee you he will agree
[05:47:39] <Corinne Cath> I’ve worked w Niels for a decade, his approach to deadlines is very Douglas adamsy
[05:47:46] <sftcd> heh
[05:47:53] <Mirja Kühlewind> single-threaded? i'm in two meetings right now
[05:48:03] <Charles Eckel> just a reminder, start your message with "mic:" if you want me to take the queue and speak for you
[05:48:12] <Martin Duke> @mirja that is your superpower
[05:48:51] <Mirja Kühlewind> no I'm failing here mostly
[05:49:10] <mcr> What is lacking in many WGs is active involvement by chairs to: 1) reduce number of repeat emails from list bullies, 2) summarize a thread into a new thread.  This is not a new concept.  We've had this advice for years, but it just doesn't seem to happen.
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[05:50:09] <Rich Salz> It's hard to do in the best of circumstances and requires soft skills that aren't widely prevelent in our field. Alissa had some training set up but then COVID hit IIRC
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[05:50:24] <Alexandre Petrescu> "summarize a thread into a new thread." - also, I often miss the summarization of a thread into a conclusion, or into a set of next steps.
[05:50:26] <Martin Duke> also this draft be renamed to include "shmoo" so it is easier to find
[05:50:40] <Alissa Cooper> We are trying to get online training together instead
[05:50:56] <Rich Salz> and mail aliases set up so manycouches&lt;&gt;shmoo
[05:51:13] <Martin Duke> Rich +1
[05:51:16] <JcK> MIC: @Mallory: have you experimented, or needed  think about, rate-limiting or other to prevent one or three people going back and forth, repeating themselves, and basically pushing everyone else out of the conversation.
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[05:52:22] <Alexandre Petrescu> aliases shmoo-manycouches are excellent idea; together with a MUA filter push from Secretariat to user's MUA.
[05:52:25] <Mirja Kühlewind> I think is would be nice to actually define a really concrete experiment for one wg to try out and report back
[05:52:36] <Brian Trammell> +1 mirja
[05:52:43] <Jonathan Reed> +1
[05:52:54] <Rich Salz> @Charles, did you see JcK?
[05:52:54] <Brian Trammell> (N concrete experiments for N WGs, but 1 is a good start)
[05:52:59] <JcK> @Mirja: +1.  Or we could try it on the IETF list :-(
[05:53:05] <Charles Eckel> yes
[05:53:07] <John Scudder> @mirja how are you in two meetings? When I tried it at 108, I could only have meetecho open once, trying a second time killed the first session.
[05:53:18] <Tero Kivinen> Chairs can add regexps to the datatracker to match whateter other draft names people might use, so they will be shown in the related drafts part. If something is missing sending email to chairs might help.
[05:53:19] <Marco Hogewoning> @mirja +1 suggestion to use thj
[05:53:22] <Brian Trammell> two sessions to different meetings works
[05:53:32] <Brian Trammell> two sessions to the same meeting fails
[05:53:36] <Brian Trammell> (at least for me)
[05:53:37] <Marco Hogewoning> suggest to use this one, dogfood and all that
[05:53:39] <John Scudder> @brian, huh. OK, thanks, that's new. Will try.
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[05:53:43] <Oliver Borchert> The only concern I do have is that adding more venues for discussion means more venues that would need to be monitored. It is easy to miss issues one is interested in.
[05:53:46] <Brian Trammell> back at IETF XX in Chicago, did this with three meetings
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[05:54:03] <Corinne Cath> Don’t knock sociology before you’ve tried it
[05:54:04] <John Scudder> Yeah, it was an unwelcome change at 108.
[05:54:04] <Rich Salz> now you're just bragging, Brian
[05:54:05] <Meetecho> John Scudder: you can join more than one meeting at the same time, I'm in two right now. Understanding two audio streams concurrently is of course another matter :)
[05:54:06] <mcr> @John, maybe your browser/OS doesn't let you share.  You can't be in the same meeting twice. I am watching shmoo, opsawg and add. I will switch to opsawg for a specific discussion.
[05:54:19] <Martin Duke> time check: we are 20 minutes behind schedule if this topic ends now
[05:54:40] <sftcd> I got outta the queue because what I was going to say was mostly said, but I'd prefer not to do this kind of experiment via github issues - those work for some people's workflow but not others is my experience
[05:54:41] <Amelia Andersdotter> @martin thanks. noted.
[05:54:42] <JcK> @Oliver: Having tried things like this, briefly, yes
[05:54:48] <Jim Fenton> Of course, GitHub issues create lots of email too.
[05:54:54] <Bron Gondwana> @Ted: having the chair update the issue description frequently would fix that
[05:55:14] <Bron Gondwana> @Jim: people can subscribe to the issues they care about and still tourist the others
[05:55:22] <Bron Gondwana> and here's me as an email person pushing non-email tools!
[05:55:22] <Corinne Cath> This is such an important point the cognitive thought on a thread is super ephemeral if you’re only looking on the list
[05:55:30] <sftcd> @bron: I find the mail flow I get from GH useless mostly
[05:55:31] <Mirja Kühlewind> @john you can log into too different sessions (not just twice the same). however I actually have two laptops and two (in-ear) headphones
[05:55:35] <Corinne Cath> Load*
[05:55:39] <John Scudder> Well look at that, it worked. Thanks, all.
[05:55:40] <Dhruv Dhody> maybe this might work for rfcefdp as they were trying to do something similar in between meetings
[05:55:46] <Rich Salz> and there are github&gt;email summary scripts in use, too.
[05:55:49] <sureshk@jabber.org> Thanks Martin. We have a bit of spare time and the discussion is fantastic :-)
[05:55:50] <Bron Gondwana> @sftcd I use emails from GH as edge triggers to go look
[05:56:10] <Jim Fenton> @Bron almost always I have seen people subscribe to notifications by repository, not by issue.
[05:56:19] <Alexandre Petrescu> " two audio streams concurrently is of course another matter :)" - a newcomer shown me how to use two headsets (in-auricular and out-auricular) at the same time.  But if everyone were multi-sessioning at the same time... could that mean anything.
[05:56:22] <sftcd> I get 20 wrt the esni repo in a few mins and am immediately lost as only 1 or 2 are human readable
[05:56:25] <mcr> @Bron, yes, me too.  Often the emails will tell me that it's over already.  Usually, I'm okay with that.
[05:56:26] <Bron Gondwana> open a repo per topic :p
[05:56:26] <John Scudder> I think maybe at 108 it was forbidden as a revenue-protection measure. (To bring it back on topic.)
[05:56:42] <RjS> In interest of time, I will send mail later. I short, I was going to ask if Mallory had already experienced true surprise during an async meeting, and what facilitation techniques worked well when that happened.
[05:56:54] <Jim Fenton> @Bron Repo per topic: ouch!
[05:57:01] <Marco Hogewoning> I just feel I'm too old for github, not being a programmer it is just too much to try and get into my workflow
[05:57:04] <Meetecho> John Scudder: I was in more than one room during IETF 108 too, as we need to monitor them all
[05:57:13] <Alissa Cooper> @meetecho me too
[05:57:32] <Rich Salz> sample summary message: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/NmRsFwH87IW2cIUdIDjWVP-cLrQ/
[05:57:43] Lou Berger leaves the room
[05:58:04] <sftcd> @marco: I'm a bad programmer, am fine with GH in general, but I don't stay logged in to it and I think that last breaks their model for interaction
[05:58:10] Lou Berger joins the room
[05:58:15] <Rich Salz> you subscribe to a repo, and then have to mute issues you don't care about (a link at the bottom of every email message they send)
[05:58:23] <sureshk@jabber.org> @RjS: Thanks!
[05:58:45] <Ted Lemon> YES!!!
[05:58:46] <John Scudder> @meetecho maybe it was 107 then. Anyway, I'll stop.
[05:58:50] <Ted Lemon> (wiki)
[05:59:10] <mcr> I think that people who find email to be the wrong tool, probably are using the wrong email tool.
[05:59:21] <sftcd> OTOH, if there was an "issue for this week" that might be ok as I'd know to login and go look something between start & end of the "meeting thing"
[05:59:26] <Jim Fenton> @Rich: That works, but for me too much fear-of-missing-out
[05:59:29] <Ted Lemon> No, it really is the wrong tool. Too much to read, no summaries.
[05:59:36] <mcr> I have never had a good experience doing it in a wiki, unless what we are doing is a synchronous edit as a group.
[05:59:47] <sureshk@jabber.org> @Toerless: I had cut the mic line. If you want to make a short point please go ahead.
[05:59:48] <Matthew Gillmore> Yea the TLDR needs to be addressed
[06:00:16] <Ted Lemon> The point of a wiki is that each email message changes the conversation (or doesn't ,if it's redundant). The wiki is not the place to have the conversion--it's the place to track the state of the conversation.
[06:00:30] <Matthew Gillmore> +1
[06:00:34] <Bron Gondwana> yeah - someone needs to be filtering the input into the wiki state
[06:00:36] Victor Vasiliev joins the room
[06:00:42] <Mirja Kühlewind> @marco you can do mostly everything using the web ui with github. there is nothing really to learn, just use it...
[06:00:47] Victor Vasiliev leaves the room
[06:00:51] Victor Vasiliev joins the room
[06:00:57] <sftcd> @mirja: *if* you're logged in
[06:01:43] Lou Berger leaves the room
[06:01:44] <Mirja Kühlewind> yes, you need an account but that's not a skills problem
[06:02:09] <sftcd> it's not that - I trust some browsers with some passwords/tokens but that one I mind better, just in case
[06:02:09] <mcr> +1 on issue list.
[06:02:14] <Ted Lemon> I'm a heavy git user, and I think github is great for some things, but it doesn't solve every problem.
[06:02:18] Lou Berger joins the room
[06:02:33] <Jim Fenton> @Ted +1
[06:02:45] <Matthew Gillmore> @Ted +1
[06:03:16] <Marco Hogewoning> @mirja I know...everything can be learned, more just a matter of how many barriers do you want to put up; to me (and probably others) which are not hardcore dealing with techie bist, github remains quite a niche
[06:03:40] <Rich Salz> let's not relitigate the GIT WG rationale here.
[06:04:14] 藤﨑 智宏 joins the room
[06:04:15] <Marco Hogewoning> of course the world of word documents with track changes where I usually work in can be blamed for the same
[06:04:25] <Martin Duke> I know there's a remote meetings section, but this smells more gendispatch-ish than shmoo
[06:04:34] <Mirja Kühlewind> @
[06:04:45] Corinne Cath leaves the room
[06:04:48] <Mirja Kühlewind> @marco word is so much worse
[06:05:12] Lou Berger leaves the room
[06:05:14] <Marco Hogewoning> I never said it was better
[06:05:15] Lou Berger joins the room
[06:05:52] <Brian Trammell> (flashbacks to dealing with shared-via-email Word documents in a multilingual environment)
[06:05:53] Dan Romascanu joins the room
[06:06:05] <Brian Trammell> (nope nope nope)
[06:06:14] <John Scudder> /eyelid begins to twitch
[06:06:16] <Marco Hogewoning> @brian welcome to ITU
[06:07:10] <mcr> @Brian, it's not that it can't work, it's that most people have no understanding how to make it work.  That's why the synchronous edit process is so much better.
[06:07:38] <Brian Trammell> if you have someone whose job is editor/access controller (which I guess you could mostly automate), yeah
[06:08:03] <sftcd> mad suggestion: once there's some chance of a f2f IETF happening again - build the entire thing around the hackathon with the WG sessions able to be entirely remote as a way of hedging against partial attendance
[06:08:07] <JcK> @Marco: FWIW, I definitely qualify as a programmer despite not having been employed to write production code in a few decades, and I don't much like Github either.  It isn't the  UI or the tools; it is the amount of energy to follow a large number of rapidly evolving repos and threads without making a full time investment in it.  Hard (for me at least) to go away for a few days while I attend to other things and then come back and mentally resync
[06:08:34] <Brian Trammell> (there are also accidental Word reasons this doesn't work, such that the stylesheet information base is language-dependent, but that's approximately as niche as rejecting GitHub over native IPv6 connectivity)
[06:08:35] <JcK> Of course, I may be showing my age too :-(
[06:08:37] Bill Silverajan joins the room
[06:08:48] <Brian Trammell> sftcd: that's not a mad suggestion
[06:09:06] <Bron Gondwana> Charles' head position makes him look like a vampire with a big black collar
[06:09:07] Bob Hinden joins the room
[06:09:07] <Marco Hogewoning> anyway, to wrap-up a) it is usually not the best solution that becomes dominant b) I do think there is a limit in how many different tools people can or are willing to use c) moving to far in what is generally considered a "niche" or boutique tool might not help in attracting newcomers or paricipants from other stakeholder groups
[06:09:13] <sftcd> @brian: it must be mad if I typed it 1st:-)
[06:09:19] <Brian Trammell> an in-person meeting that's basically hackathon + plenary + area meetings + dispatch + BOFs
[06:09:20] <Amelia Andersdotter> hm. i was reflecting on cumulative bandwidth requirements here and transmitting video
[06:09:30] <Brian Trammell> @sftcd it might not be mad if we agree about it though ;)
[06:09:31] <Rich Salz> I mentioned this yesterday, but https://thephd.github.io/editing-the-c-standard is about ISO C document.  (And yes it's a markdown doc on github :)
[06:09:52] <Mirja Kühlewind> i don't think github is a "niche" tool anymore
[06:09:54] <Amelia Andersdotter> maybe more for the openness draft, though - the way tooling is inclusive or excluding for different levels of infra
[06:09:56] <JcK> @sftcd: With an idea like  that, we might turn the IETF from a standards (and process-obsessed) body back into an engineering one.  The very idea!
[06:10:02] Juan-Carlos Zúñiga leaves the room
[06:10:10] <Alexandre Petrescu> github not niche, codetogether is niche
[06:10:22] George Michaelson leaves the room
[06:10:38] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @stephen... not sure about the wisdom of that. I find I simply can't hackathon because I have very specific code development platform needs that no laptop can handle.
[06:11:02] <sftcd> @mirja: from my POV, it's not that GH is niche or not - it's that you need to buy into the "keep a tab open logged in to N things to do any work" - that's not my workflow nor does it match my threat model for browsers
[06:11:22] <Alexandre Petrescu> hackathon in walled room blocks a lot of cellular reach
[06:11:27] <Alexandre Petrescu> (or GPS reach)
[06:11:34] <RjS> @phb - we had people participate at many SIPits that had their dev/test env back in a large set or racks in their labs
[06:11:38] <mcr> @sftcd, I agree: i don't keep a tab open for github.  It's interrupt driven  by emails.
[06:11:43] <Martin Duke> @Suresh am I next or is Richardson going?
[06:12:00] <Bron Gondwana> laptop is just a terminal to the real machine somewhere else anyway, right?
[06:12:09] <sureshk@jabber.org> @Martin: Michael is going next
[06:12:12] <sftcd> @PHB: what rjs said - hackathons seem to have all sorts of individual table/person setups
[06:12:17] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @RjS which is how I would probably hackathon if I was doing interop...
[06:12:18] Bill Silverajan leaves the room
[06:12:23] Bill Silverajan joins the room
[06:13:01] <mcr> so, mDNS worked across it, and I assume that IPv6-LL would have worked, but nobody else at my "table" was ready for such work.
[06:13:10] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @stephen... I can't code without my monitor...
[06:13:22] <Marco Hogewoning> @mcr can't say I appreciate those tools that send me mails with "click here to see what somebody said" - my bank now does the same "please login to the app to see what we want to tell you", why not just tell me right away
[06:13:27] <Rich Salz> That NOC raspPi is cool.
[06:13:30] <sftcd> @phb: bring a projector:-)
[06:13:45] <Alexandre Petrescu> IPv-LL across the world needs a quantum leap, i.e. tunnels.  These transform reality.
[06:13:49] Dan Romascanu leaves the room
[06:13:51] mcr considering replacing 30-year old IKEA desk, because it can't accomodate third monitor.
[06:13:52] Stephen McQuistin leaves the room
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[06:14:07] <Marco Hogewoning> our bloody CRM does the same "somebody posted a comment"; why on earth niot include the comment remains a mystery
[06:14:16] <mcr> @Marco, I agree. Github is mostly not like that.
[06:14:20] <Marco Hogewoning> &lt;/rant&gt;
[06:14:45] <mcr> It's designed by marketing people who don't actually have to use the system.
[06:15:09] <Olaf Kolkman> @marco - for your bank that is a security/privacy issue
[06:15:17] <JcK> @Marco: in many cases they thinks that "login _here_ to read" stuff either gives you more security, gives them more informaiton about you, or both.
[06:15:28] <Rich Salz> Or it was designed to meet security/regulatory requirements.
[06:15:35] <mcr> SMIME is how many decades old?
[06:15:48] <sftcd> 3
[06:15:53] <Marco Hogewoning> @olaf Well, to tell me a change in T&amp;C or tarrif is hardly a privacy issue
[06:15:56] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @mcr, I have three monitors and it really helps. Looking to upgrade though
[06:16:03] <JcK> @mcr nearly 3.  PGP as old or older.
[06:16:25] Toerless Eckert leaves the room
[06:16:26] <Rich Salz> They might need to definitively know that you say the tariff notice.
[06:16:32] <mcr> I think that my third monitor won't switch workspaces, but will basically just be full of chat windows, and some PDF viewers.
[06:17:04] <Rich Salz> *saw the notice
[06:17:40] <sftcd> +many to what charles just said
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[06:18:45] <RjS> I don't think what charles is talking about (the loss of productivity for being online) _can_ be quantified for the size samples we're working with
[06:19:02] <RjS> A subjective summary is all I think could really be acheived
[06:19:18] <sftcd> @robert: probably - still worth a moan though:-)
[06:19:30] <JcK> @RjS: yep
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[06:20:57] <Rich Salz> no, the name sucks.
[06:20:57] <John Scudder> Marshall Rose as I recall
[06:20:58] Rich Salz leaves the room
[06:21:08] Rich Salz joins the room
[06:21:19] <JcK> @Michael.  one of three famous IETF observations from Marshall Rose.
[06:21:31] Paolo Saviano joins the room
[06:21:32] <Rich Salz> Either he or Carl Malamud referring to ISO meetings IIRC.
[06:21:42] Paolo Saviano leaves the room
[06:21:44] <JcK> Marshall.
[06:21:52] <sureshk@jabber.org> @jckI think there is a Tshirt?
[06:21:57] <Mirja Kühlewind> @charles thanks for organizing the hackathon! I think the biggest value is to have a big room to chat on sat and sun at physical meetings and I hope we get back to that at some point. But keeping the effort up until then as good as possible is still good I think
[06:22:01] <JcK> And not just ISO meetings.
[06:22:05] <sureshk@jabber.org> a pink one?
[06:22:26] Peter Koch joins the room
[06:23:02] <Ted Lemon> There are too damned many IoT meetings.
[06:23:04] <Rich Salz> I think I tossed my copy of "Elements of Network style" where it was also mentioned in the forward as part of global standards travel.  But I accept your correction, thanks, @jck
[06:23:17] <sftcd> not sure the majority of IETF meeting attendees have such calendars
[06:23:18] <JcK> @suresh   I remember a tee-shirt with "roadkill on the Information superhighway" on it, but not one about "fine lunches and dinners".  Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I don't remember it.
[06:23:54] <sftcd> maybe 20-30% of attendees have a calendar like that would be my guess
[06:24:03] <sureshk@jabber.org> @JcK: I will look for it
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[06:24:47] <Ted Lemon> What mcr is describing is basically a DoS attack.
[06:25:01] <Ted Lemon> Admittedly I'm a bit opinionated on this topic.
[06:25:01] <Charles Eckel> @Mirja, thanks, will do
[06:25:15] <Bron Gondwana> my calendar is nowhere near that bad, but I have found SOMETHING of interest in every time slot, and had a couple of clashes
[06:26:34] <sftcd> @bron: yep, I'm personally not sure where the right balance is to be found between the over-committed and those with more sense - we do want the latter to turn into the former
[06:26:43] <Brian Trammell> hm, so AIUI if you arrange mcr's suggestion around an in-person hackathon post-pandemic, it's basically what I'd see as the ideal.
[06:27:45] <Brian Trammell> (might be missing something because the interesting bits of SHMOO and ICCRG agendas seem to have been synchonized :) )
[06:27:50] Jim Fenton leaves the room
[06:28:16] <sureshk@jabber.org> Sorry Brian!
[06:28:17] <Alexandre Petrescu> 40hours work a week?  Rather 35.**
[06:28:28] <Matthew Gillmore> I didn't sleep in Eastern Time
[06:28:52] <Brian Trammell> i presume you and Jana didn't do that on purpose. :)
[06:29:01] <sureshk@jabber.org> Not at all :-)
[06:29:34] <Alexandre Petrescu> I hear mcr
[06:30:17] <sureshk@jabber.org> I will cut the mic line after Mirja
[06:30:37] <sureshk@jabber.org> We have cut into all the slack we had
[06:30:48] <Brian Trammell> doh
[06:30:54] <Brian Trammell> okay i'll write a doc instead ;)
[06:31:07] <Mirja Kühlewind> think it would be nice to have some more dscussion
[06:31:09] <Amelia Andersdotter> you can also participate on the e-mailing list
[06:31:11] <sureshk@jabber.org> Go ahead Brian. You got in on a race condition.
[06:31:29] <sureshk@jabber.org> You got in line as I was typing :-)
[06:31:39] <Rich Salz> Alissa has a good point about timezone fairness being part of this; glad mcr agrees.
[06:31:55] <sftcd> yep, GOTO mallory's suggestion maybe
[06:32:09] <sureshk@jabber.org> @Rich: Ack. +1 to Alissa.
[06:32:50] <Matthew Gillmore> spread the pain equally and consistently/predictably and I am fine for equal time zones amongst meetings
[06:33:14] <RjS> the draft deadline for the big meetings still carries a lot more clout with many people's $dayjob and $life
[06:33:19] <Martin Duke> I'm glad that interim meetings exist, but I am not for pushing WGs to have them in lieu of the big IETF meetings.
[06:33:27] <Brian Trammell> mirja basically said what I wanted to say
[06:33:39] <Dan York> Agree that TZ is a key challenge, particularly with regard to attracting new participants from different regions of the world.
[06:33:43] <sftcd> @robert: really? (wrt draft deadline) I'm surprised
[06:33:48] <Brian Trammell> still going to write that draft though, I think :)
[06:34:00] <RjS> @sftcd - I'm serious
[06:34:15] <JcK> @Rich: odd.  I couldn't remember map referencing that, so, since my copy was handy, I just pulled it out and scanned the Forward and Preface and don't find the quote/comment  there.  Didn't find it in the set of slogans in the back either.    Sure you found it there and not one of Marshall's book-length rants on pieces of OSI and similar things.
[06:34:59] <JcK> That pushback used to occur for physical meetings frequently.   THe IETF apparently decided it didn't like ADs who behaved that way.
[06:35:05] <sftcd> @robert: don't doubt ya, just I always thought it was only meeting date driven not $dayjob
[06:35:41] James Galvin joins the room
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[06:36:01] <JcK> If the WG chairs can't/ don't do it and we leave it to the WG Chairs, there still has to be oversignt and accountability to keept the WG Chairs doing it because there are lots of forces against it.
[06:36:27] <Bron Gondwana> I was gonna give my tragedy of the commons reasons why I schedule meetings at the IETF as a chair
[06:36:28] <sureshk@jabber.org> Sorry Bron!
[06:36:46] <JcK> Often the people who are not, e.g., getting agenda and meeting materials up far enough in advance _are_ the WG chairs
[06:36:50] <Rich Salz> Well, I'm certainly not going to say my faulty memory is more correct then the book you're holding :)  THANKS!
[06:36:54] <Bron Gondwana> because my people are in IETF mode during the week, so they will have attention to spare
[06:37:09] Praneet joins the room
[06:37:22] <Bron Gondwana> half the time, they're the ADs!
[06:37:43] <sureshk@jabber.org> :-)
[06:37:45] <Bron Gondwana> but if I want their undivided attention for an hour - a session at the IETF meeting is the way to get it
[06:38:23] <sureshk@jabber.org> @Bron: Really good point. I have very similar experiences
[06:38:33] <Mirja Kühlewind> no an AD anymore but I was usually overbooked and running between meetings
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[06:38:39] <mcr> Yes, we need that.
[06:39:06] <Mirja Kühlewind> (still overbooked but less and no running for online meetings)
[06:39:35] <Alissa Cooper> not having to run is a big plus of the online meetings
[06:39:36] <JcK> @Rich: could easily be somewhere else in the book, just not in those places.  But I can't remember Padlipsky and Rose interacting significantly although I could easily have missed something.
[06:39:38] Tommy Pauly joins the room
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[06:39:53] <sureshk@jabber.org> @Alissa, Mirja: :-)
[06:40:09] <Alexandre Petrescu> EU does not issue travel advisories; but country-to-country agreements about border opennes are realized commonly these days.
[06:40:10] <sureshk@jabber.org> I remember one of Mirja's Pechakuchas
[06:40:45] Barry Leiba joins the room
[06:40:49] <Rich Salz> I'm sure I'm merged some streams in my head.  Let's just assume I was wrong.  Not the first time. :)
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[06:41:40] <Brian Trammell> not having to run is an advantage but i'm getting *way* less exercise at the remote IETFs than the in-person ones...
[06:42:01] <Bron Gondwana> yeah, likewise - and I had to miss my gym class on Monday!
[06:42:08] <John Scudder> The Tao RFC attributes the quote to Marshall. This book review of the Open Book also quotes it. https://dl.acm.org/doi/book/10.5555/77625
[06:42:15] <JcK> No problem and I wouldn't have looked it up if I hadn't been close enough to Mike (whom I miss regularly) that it struck me as odd.  So thanks for motivating me to do a self-imposed refresher course.
[06:42:17] <Mirja Kühlewind> back to my earlier comment: I was actually expecting to have more chairs to decide for interims instead of the crowded meeting week. Would be interesting to figure out better why chairs decide to hold a session this week.
[06:42:31] <sftcd> martin's draft#1 seems sensible
[06:42:35] <Jari Arkko> It made sense, Martin :-)
[06:43:04] <Dhruv Dhody> @mirja - more participation in MY WG for sure
[06:43:07] <Alexandre Petrescu> I support the draft on cancellation policy advice
[06:43:10] <Dan York> @Mirja - That's a good question
[06:43:42] <sftcd> relocate IETF meeting: ok everyone stand up and move 10km to the left! :-)
[06:44:08] Dan Romascanu joins the room
[06:44:19] <Jay Daley_947> Relocation is pretty much impossible unless the venue owner has a spare venue
[06:44:22] <John Scudder> @Mirja, off the top of my head, I'd say for me it was inertia (not a good reason) plus knowing that my group participants would be clearing their schedules and paying attention this week (a better reason).
[06:45:58] <Rich Salz> Jay are you okay if that gets relayed to the mic?
[06:46:10] <sftcd> my take: mv humming-tool /dev/null
[06:46:18] <Jay Daley_947> Yes
[06:46:20] <Bron Gondwana> The Hilton, downtown slum
[06:46:21] <Jari Arkko> I think Michael is onto something, but one issue is that meetings during the IETF week _do_ get more attention for various reasons. You reserve time for the week, you know there's going to be a meeting even if you don't follow the mailing list all the time, you may decide to join _another_ meeting just because it is an IETF week, even if it is not your main WG, etc. Not clear what the calculation for the WG chairs would be here. There's tradeoffs.
[06:46:51] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> I was never remotely impressed by humming.
[06:47:25] <sftcd> I'm fine with humming, just not clear any tool can usefully replicate function
[06:47:41] <Bron Gondwana> I was never impressed by remote humming
[06:47:42] <Pete Resnick> +1 SF
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[06:48:00] <Alexandre Petrescu> At f2f I dont hum because not wanting to disturb the nearby person.
[06:48:05] <mglt> One thing too is that vote count is something people are more familiar with than humming / consensus.
[06:48:16] <Dan York> @Jari - I was about to write something similar. I think it *IS* something about allocating your time/attention to meetings during "IETF week".
[06:48:21] <Rich Salz> MIC: Please relay Jay's comment that "Relocation is pretty much impossible unless the venue owner has a spare venue"
[06:48:33] <Pete Resnick> Rich: It was already relayed.
[06:48:36] <Mirja Kühlewind> So actually the questions are if to meet at the ietf week and how much time to use. Sync up with more people is valuable but discussing specific in-depth topics at an interim just focused on that topic (with less people) might be more efficient
[06:48:40] <Amelia Andersdotter> was it not relayed already?
[06:48:40] <Tero Kivinen> I have been several WG meetings this week which I do not really follow (not in the mailing list). I know some of them do have intern meetings, but I never have time to join them.
[06:48:45] <Matthew Gillmore> I'm cool to create an MVP and fail quickly
[06:49:16] <Jay Daley_947> I'm comfortable with Martin's approach that feasibility may affect which option is chosen
[06:49:16] <sureshk@jabber.org> @sftcd: please don't be shy :-)
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[06:50:03] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> It sounds like stephen is saying "we need to actually experiment and
find out what works, and trying to get consensus first will get in the
way of finding what works"
[06:50:07] <sftcd> @suresh: I'll be shy later
[06:50:16] <sureshk@jabber.org> :-)
[06:50:26] <sftcd> I do like playing with tooling like that but don't like that it be considered more substantive than a playthjing
[06:50:46] <Jari Arkko> +1 to what Mirja, Stephen, and Tero were saying above.
[06:50:58] <Rich Salz> sorry, missed that.  thanks.
[06:50:59] <Mirja Kühlewind> I usually think about taps as an example where we moved to really productive once a month interim sand have a heads-up talk this time in tsv-area to inform the community about the state. However we are in a state in that group where we are about to wrap up work.
[06:51:31] <sureshk@jabber.org> @Rich: Martin relayed it as speaker. That's probably why you missed it.
[06:51:49] <Brian Trammell> yeah, we switched to interims in TAPS when we move into "simple matter of finishing the text" mode
[06:51:51] <Tommy Pauly> Taking the TAPS works, Mirja, we also made significant progress early on when we had a couple in-person interims
[06:51:56] <sftcd> heh, I disagree with David too:-)
[06:52:06] <Alexandre Petrescu> (not sure whether all see a huge latency difference between audio and lips/shouldner expressoin of speaker?)
[06:52:06] <Pete Resnick> Anonymity is useful in some cases and not useful in others.
[06:52:22] <Matthew Gillmore> +1 Martin
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[06:53:38] <sftcd> if I get multiple choice, can I do an write-in answer to an alternative question too? or is that just jabber :-)
[06:53:51] <Matthew Gillmore> as long as you cannot vote twice
[06:54:19] <Bron Gondwana> Jabber should be fine for write-in I would hope
[06:54:32] <Amelia Andersdotter> thanks everyone
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[06:54:50] <Alissa Cooper> thanks!
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[06:54:53] <sftcd> @martin: despite what I said thanks for trying with the humming tool -
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[06:54:54] <Bob Hinden> By, thanks to the chairs
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[06:54:58] <Mirja Kühlewind> thanks!
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[06:55:01] <Alexandre Petrescu> thanks
[06:55:01] <Jonathan Reed> thanks
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[06:55:04] <Brian Trammell> \o
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[06:55:12] <sureshk@jabber.org> Thanks all!
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[09:45:27] <Half-Shot> (test)
[09:45:30] <half-shot-test> hi
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