IETF
sedate
sedate@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, March 21, 2022< ^ >
cabo has set the subject to: https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-112-sedate
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[11:48:36] Meetecho has set the subject to: https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-113-sedate
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[11:58:00] <Bron Gondwana_web_592> meetecho: I can't share slides - I see them in the folder view, but when I try to share pre-loaded slides, it's empty
[11:58:13] <Bron Gondwana_web_592> I had the same issue in Dispatch, but thought it was because I was just assisting rather than a WG chair
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[11:58:19] <Bron Gondwana_web_592> and Kirsty could share
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[11:58:59] <Mark McFadden_web_154> I tried as well, but it told me that there were no slides available to share.
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[12:03:51] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> Hello!
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[12:06:11] <alexamirante> we're coming downstairs to try and reduce the echo
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[12:06:45] <Bron Gondwana_web_496> meetecho: our remote presenter is getting feedback from the room
[12:06:49] <Bron Gondwana_web_496> thanks
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[12:08:11] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> the echo is gone
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[12:08:15] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> on my end anyway
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[12:09:39] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> note that this is needed just for backwards compat, it's not something we'd recommend people to use...
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[12:11:23] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> meetecho: we did turn off the queue and presenter mic :) only the chair mic is on right now
[12:11:35] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> (we are not trying to make your life harder, I promise)
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[12:18:11] <Pete Resnick_web_625> You aren't forced, but we should specify default semantics.
[12:18:39] <cabo> There can't really be default semantics
[12:18:45] <cabo> For something that is broken
[12:18:59] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> can I respond to this or should I wait for the queue?
[12:19:06] <Pete Resnick_web_625> @carsten: Disagree. I'll go to the mic.
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[12:20:40] <Pete Resnick_web_625> @meetecho: Serious echo problem still here.
[12:20:51] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> the ability to mute everyone else? that's the best feature for standards stuff /s
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[12:27:01] <Neil Jenkins_web_317> I agree completely with Pete here.
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[12:27:57] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> its meaningful for arithmetic too, the meeting today was scheduled at the offset specified in the timestamp, but a routine to schedule a meeting one week in the future could take things like DST into account
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[12:31:53] <John C Klensin> Strongly agree with Pete.  Having this depend on DWIM or "guess what the person who created this meant when it was created" exclusively is just bad news.
[12:32:10] <Pete Resnick_web_625> There needs to be a default and there needs to be a marker. Ambiguity is bad.
[12:32:41] <cabo> John: You are arguing from a position that the system must do something to resolve the unsolvable problem.  That will never be a good solution.
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[12:33:29] <Pete Resnick_web_625> @Michael: I'm OK if the default is "I meant the local time" or "I meant the numeric offset", but the other one must be explicitly marked.
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[12:34:38] <cabo> Pete: That is already decided: This is an RFC 3339 timestamp.
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[12:35:01] <Pete Resnick_web_625> So the default is "trust the offset".
[12:35:34] <Pete Resnick_web_625> /s/trust/intended
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[12:35:38] <John C Klensin> @Carsten: I am arguing that whomever creates one of these things should have the ability to state what they mean/intend.  As Pete says, ambiguity is bad.  It is especially bad if we _require_ the ambiguity.
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[12:37:16] <cabo> If the ambiguity is the reality, hiding that is bad.
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[12:39:00] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> @Pete: that's exactly my original suggestion, sans the explicit marker but I do support Bron's proposal to include an explicit marker
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[12:39:14] <John C Klensin> Yes about the reality... and there is (very slightly) disagree with Pete.  If we can't get away from the ambiguity (and some of my experience suggests that is the case), there must be a way to identify the intent in either case.  If someone leaves that out, let it be on their heads.
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[12:40:48] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> the ability to disregard the offset in favor of the TZ tag makes us open the "floating times" can of worms. It's an extremely useful and important use case and one I'd love to support, but my understanding was that we decided to keep it out of scope of this current draft.
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[12:41:40] <Pete Resnick_web_625> My knee-jerk reaction is "Yuck. I hate the topic." :-)
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[12:43:44] <Pete Resnick_web_625> What does "reject" mean?
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[12:47:37] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> Informative Timestamps?
[12:47:43] <Pete Resnick_web_625> "Extended" is fine.
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[12:47:54] <John C Klensin> Not-so-random gibberish?
[12:50:11] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> I'd be happy to define calendars, we need it for Temporal :D
[12:52:19] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> I did them bottom-up because I didn't want to deviate from 3339, but support top-down
[12:52:25] <Pete Resnick_web_625> Speaking as a long time writer of ABNF: I don't care.
[12:52:54] <Pete Resnick_web_625> Do what you want to do.
[12:53:33] <John C Klensin> FWIW, I don't care either, but I think the usual practice in the IETF has been top-down.
[12:54:28] <Pete Resnick_web_625> *22 did some basics at the top, and then the higher-level ones in later sections, but top-down within sections.
[12:56:17] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> let's do it! I'm all up for more meetings :D
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[12:56:49] <Francesca Palombini_web_599> thank you all! Thanks Bron!
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[12:57:02] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_328> thanks everyone for the productive discussion
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