sedate - Tuesday, November 9, 2021

sedate

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Tuesday, November 9, 2021< ^ >

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[14:20:06] cabo has set the subject to: https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-112-sedate
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[14:29:15] <Alessandro Amirante_web_741> Slide decks have been pre-loaded from the Datatracker into Meetecho. I took care of that
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[14:30:05] <Watson Ladd_web_954> sedate: my state before finishing this cup of coffee
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[14:30:31] <Carsten Bormann_web_559> Alessandro: Why is there any manual step needed, by the way?
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[14:30:55] <Meetecho> Carsten: IIRC it was because there may be different versions of the same deck
[14:31:09] <Meetecho> So that could cause confusion when then picking the slides you wanted
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[14:31:19] <Carsten Bormann_web_559> the newest wins
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[14:31:43] <francesca> hi all
[14:31:49] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> hi!
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[14:32:17] <francesca> thanks for this reminder chairs :)
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[14:33:01] <ryzokuken> hello!
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[14:33:31] <Carsten Bormann_web_559> Is Mark breaking up just for me?
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[14:33:38] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> for me as well
[14:33:51] <ryzokuken> yeah, same here
[14:33:52] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> can still understand him though!
[14:33:55] <Carsten Bormann_web_559> So I don't have to fix things on my side.
[14:33:57] <Carsten Bormann_web_559> Yes
[14:34:03] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> at least not this particular thing
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[14:34:33] <francesca> I am also keeping track with the IAB and I have been told just before this meeting week that things are progressing
[14:34:41] <francesca> don't have any additional details
[14:34:43] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> thanks francesca
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[14:40:38] <francesca> clickable link: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sedate/EinM-eZ8NrvrprUPxD_fw57ssXM
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[14:48:07] <Pete Resnick_web_682> It *can't* change retroactively.
[14:48:21] <John C Klensin> "Don't change that rapidly?"   Do the nearly annual decisions of some cities and states in the US as to whether to observe "summer time" shifts count as changes?
[14:49:19] <Watson Ladd_web_954> that's not a change in the past timezone
[14:49:25] <Watson Ladd_web_954> but zone splits can happen
[14:49:43] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> if you write the time down as 1pm, then it's 1pm in whatever timezone the clock you're looking at is.
[14:50:13] <Pete Resnick_web_682> Mark's audio seems to be broken.
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[14:50:19] <francesca> I can hear Ujjwal, Mark.
[14:50:22] <francesca> We
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[14:51:40] <John C Klensin> @Bron: that gets back to the difference between a timestamp and some future time.   And, fwiw, I am looking at a clock that shows the time in several different zones.
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[14:52:19] <Watson Ladd_web_954> oh we got affected by this at work in an amusing way
[14:52:55] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> John, it's a past time if I write down "I ate lunch at 1pm", and then it turns out my clock was out of sync and it wasn't anywhere near 1pm really
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[14:54:01] <John C Klensin> Remind me to explain the year-long search to figure out what time I was actually born... in a city that, at the time (sic) had different buildings observing different times.
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[14:56:34] <Watson Ladd_web_954> certificates use UTC no?
[14:56:50] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> yeah, we can always use UTC
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[14:57:32] <ryzokuken> exactly, both use-cases are legitimate, it's just that instants already have a standard serialization format and datetimes don't
[14:57:35] <Watson Ladd_web_954> the problem exists
[14:57:41] <Watson Ladd_web_954> we just might not be able to solve it
[14:58:16] <Pete Resnick_web_682> The problem is solvable *iff* people are careful to define the semantics of what they are trying to express.
[14:58:39] <John C Klensin> @Watson: today, yes, one would hope.  50 or 75 or more years ago, maybe no so much.   Same comment about care in semantics.
[14:59:25] <Watson Ladd_web_954> the issue is that there is no guarrentee that a given spot will stay in a particular zone
[14:59:41] <ryzokuken> Pete Resnick_web_682, omitting the offset in favor of the IANA timezone is quite clear I suppose
[15:00:39] <ryzokuken> Watson Ladd_web_954, do you mean that a city could switch IANA zones?
[15:00:55] <Pete Resnick_web_682> @ryzokuken: Right. If you're referring to future time for human use, you include time zone and not offset.
[15:01:11] <Watson Ladd_web_954> yes
[15:01:15] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> yes, a city can switch IANA zones
[15:01:25] <Watson Ladd_web_954> well what actually happens
[15:01:26] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> or a zone can split
[15:01:31] <Watson Ladd_web_954> is a new zone is created for that city
[15:02:00] <Watson Ladd_web_954> that's why Indiana consumes so much space
[15:02:01] ryzokuken is reminded of Europe/Belgrade
[15:02:06] <John C Klensin> @Pete, it is, but note that some local issues can interfere with that too.  America/Phoenix may be fairly clear, but America/WindowRock is less so and not in the table.
[15:02:34] <Pete Resnick_web_682> Gary, Indiana I believe switched from Indianapolis time to Chicago time at some point in the distant past.
[15:04:26] <Pete Resnick_web_682> @John: Yes, but I think that problem is simply that the TZ database is not complete.
[15:04:59] <Watson Ladd_web_954> ? it covers all areas from 1970-present. the problem is predicting the future is hard
[15:06:17] <Pete Resnick_web_682> @Watson: You can't predict the future, sure, that's given. You can say, "A time at 1pm in the time zone labeled 'Chicago' from now and into the future."
[15:07:46] <John C Klensin> @Pete: Nope.  Even for 1970-present.  If one starts with the nominal longitude-based zone boundaries, it is an exception to an exception (or not) based on, if I have this right, annual decisions.
[15:07:49] <Pete Resnick_web_682> If I live in Urbana, Illinois and (being somewhat obstreperous) it stops participating in Chicago time, then I might need to add an Urbana time zone to the database and change my calendar entry.
[15:07:50] <Watson Ladd_web_954> Right. But if you live in Gary, you don't have a zone
[15:08:13] <francesca> +1 for interim
[15:08:16] <Watson Ladd_web_954> we can say future zones will continue, but the offsets rules will change
[15:08:24] <Watson Ladd_web_954> on three days notice sometimes
[15:09:00] <Pete Resnick_web_682> @John: Since when do TZs in the database have to be based on longitude?
[15:09:59] <Watson Ladd_web_954> Australia says hello
[15:10:07] <John C Klensin> @Francesca: You are the AD and I'm not, but I'd consider a rechartering request after a WG had held only one meeting to be a clear sign that it should not have been chartered in the first place because there was insufficient clarity about what it was supposed to be doing/ problems it was trying to solve.
[15:10:26] <Pete Resnick_web_682> @Watson: Who cares if the offsets rules change? The semantics I'm trying to express are "in the Chicago time zone". Full stop.
[15:10:28] <John C Klensin> @Pete: didn't mean that -- not explaining myself well.
[15:11:28] <Watson Ladd_web_954> Oh I agree those semantics work. The issue is for smaller cities where what you want is 1 pm local time, regardless of any shifts in boundaries
[15:11:53] <francesca> to be clear, I do see such a quick rechartering being questioned by the IESG.
[15:12:22] <John C Klensin> And the one I'm trying to express is "on an evolving basis, with no regular or predictable pattern, some years "follow whatever Phoenix does", in others, "follow whatever Salt Lake City does", and in still others, "follow whatever Santa Fe does".
[15:12:26] <Pete Resnick_web_682> @Watson: No, then you want the semantics to be "1pm in my city's time zone". If it's not in the database, you are going to have a hard time expressing it syntactically.
[15:12:31] <Watson Ladd_web_954> exactly
[15:12:38] <ryzokuken> do we have a pressing reason to recharter very quickly if the current document isn't blocked on the recharter?
[15:12:46] <Watson Ladd_web_954> @John: then it gets its own zone
[15:13:01] <francesca> I am here to try to support the wg the best that I can, if the wg believes a rechartering is necessary (and please go to the mic and state your opinion about that), it's not ideal indeed, but...
[15:13:21] <John C Klensin> @Francesca: Yes.  And that would make your fairly grim estimate of how long it would take probably too optimistic.
[15:14:11] <francesca> I agree. I did say from a purely process point of view (that means 2 weeks for each "stage" of the process) this is the absolute minimum
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[15:15:52] <francesca> Mark, absolutely. Short lived working group.
[15:16:09] <Watson Ladd_web_954> clear and time do not go together
[15:19:23] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_553> extended timestamps?
[15:19:25] <Watson Ladd_web_954> taggedtime?
[15:20:03] <Watson Ladd_web_954> names are not deleted from the DB.
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[15:20:28] <John C Klensin> "Stamptime" (to contrast with "
[15:20:39] <John C Klensin> timestamp" ?  :-(
[15:20:50] <ryzokuken> stamped timestamp?
[15:21:33] <Watson Ladd_web_954> +1 to single registry
[15:22:28] <Watson Ladd_web_954> the semantics of the example in the draft are daunting
[15:22:57] <ryzokuken> just to clarify, I'm in favor of this, the currently specified procedure was inspired by BCP 47 but I don't have anything against the alternative.
[15:23:30] <John C Klensin> If one has only a single registry, IANA then has a problem about who to pay attention to when they are asked to register a string.  Unless that registry is strictly FCFS, in which case one needs to worry about vanity names, DoS attacks, and pure nonsense.
[15:23:59] <Watson Ladd_web_954> single registry can be hierarchical
[15:24:05] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> unless we make it hard enough that there's expert review, then IANA has a limited set of experts to listen to
[15:24:16] <Watson Ladd_web_954> spec-required is a useful middle ground
[15:25:16] <Pete Resnick_web_682> Will folks be in Gather after the session? I didn't want to take up WG time since I am playing catchup on the issues, but..."I have questions". :-)
[15:25:40] <Watson Ladd_web_954> sure
[15:25:45] <Pete Resnick_web_682> (Especially Ujjwal, since some of my questions are about motivations.)
[15:26:02] <Bron Gondwana_web_249> Yep, I'm coming to Gather for sure
[15:27:12] <francesca> side meetings are ok too!
[15:27:48] <Pete Resnick_web_682> @francesca: We'll graduate to a side meeting if I am other than "simply clueless". ;-)
[15:28:03] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_553> sure, I can join gather right after this
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[15:28:23] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_553> @Pete you may also feel free to contact me directly if you ever need to! :D
[15:28:49] <John C Klensin> @Watson: yes, if one makes it hierarchical, with different groups/purposes controlling different hierarchies, that works.  It is also not much different from  the delegation plan we are trying to get rid of.
[15:29:05] <Pete Resnick_web_682> @Ujjwal: Yes, though that requires active motivation, which sometimes lacks. ;-)
[15:29:19] <francesca> (note to the chairs - add mediaman to the list of conlicts for next meeting)
[15:29:22] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_553> understandable, see you in gather then!
[15:30:36] <Watson Ladd_web_954> +1 interim
[15:30:47] <Ujjwal Sharma_web_553> there's no way to do one sooner?
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[15:32:38] <francesca> Thanks Mark and Bron!
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[15:32:45] <Pete Resnick_web_682> Cheers.
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