IETF
rfcplusplus
rfcplusplus@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, July 16, 2018< ^ >
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[22:15:01] <Spencer Dawkins> IAB can do BCPs now? I did not know that ...
[22:15:19] resnick joins the room
[22:15:22] <ted.h> Remember this is historical data; does not imply that they can do it now.
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[22:15:24] <hta> I think it publishes its own procedure documents as BCPs.
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[22:15:46] <Brian Carpenter> no, and IMHO it never happened except for joint IAB+IESG docs
[22:15:48] <resnick> Not clear that anyone other than the IETF can/ought to do Historic.
[22:15:56] <Spencer Dawkins> I thought Gonzalo's second slide said "now".
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[22:16:21] <Ole Jacobsen> Audio is distorted and overloaded if someone could tell Meetecho folks.
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[22:16:42] <ted.h> meetecho:  please check audio
[22:16:44] <Brian Carpenter> @Ole: that's been a problem all day in this room
[22:16:54] <Martin Thomson> The numbers change post 4846 further than what is shown.
[22:16:54] <meetecho> Ole Jacobsen: we know, this room has been acting like this the whole day
[22:17:07] <Ole Jacobsen> ok, thanks
[22:17:08] <meetecho> We're been working with the AV team on that
[22:17:09] <Spencer Dawkins> Brian - I know about those, and they're pre-stream, because the last time we talked about doing a joint one (Pervasive Monitoring Considered an Attack), we couldn't figure out how to do that because IAB and IETF are now separate streams.
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[22:18:10] <Brian Carpenter> @Spencer: yes, the slide say that and it's wrong.
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[22:18:53] <Alissa Cooper> @Spencer see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search/rfc_search_detail.php?stream_name=IAB&page=All
[22:18:57] <Ole Jacobsen> This reminds me of the DMV multiple choice test ;-)
[22:19:05] <Alissa Cooper> most recent one was BCP 40
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[22:21:11] <Brian Carpenter> BCP40 was from dnsop as far as I can see
[22:21:15] <resnick> And BCP 40 was a rewrite of a pre-stream document that was BCP.
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[22:22:15] <Abdussalam Baryun> yes there is issues...
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[22:23:11] <Abdussalam Baryun> yes confusions
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[22:23:54] <resnick> It would probably be best to explain what you think the issues and confusions are.
[22:23:55] <Alissa Cooper> The RFC Editor labels RFC 7720 as an IAB stream document. It was developed in the IAB IIRC, but based on how it appears as published perhaps the labeling is a bug.
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[22:24:57] <Brian Carpenter> OK, the tracker seems a bit confused, but RFC7720 was approved by the IESG, because only the IESG can do that. Not relevant that the IAB drafted it - the IESG approved it, so it's IETF work.
[22:25:51] <hta> it was a draft-iab, but approved by IESG
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[22:26:24] <Brian Carpenter> Yes. It's clearly misclassfied in the tracker.
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[22:29:17] <Spencer Dawkins> I want to know what the "what are you smoking?" question was, but I can take that offline ...
[22:30:20] <ted.h> Jen was pointing out that people come to her referencing drafts, expired drafts etc., asking why the IETF is doing it (the example later was IPv10)
[22:30:20] <hildjj> why bother to have the classifications at all then?  Let's just all publish I-Ds, with no consensus.
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[22:31:01] <danyork> Spencer Dawkins: Jen Linkova was commenting that friends read an Internet Draft and asked her "what are you smoking?" becausethey equated Internet Drafts with "standards" and didn't understand the difference.
[22:31:02] <Martin Thomson> DHCPv6 ?
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[22:32:23] <hildjj> Is clapping now a thing at the IETF?
[22:33:46] <Brian Carpenter> Reverting briefly to BCP40, BCP9 makes it crystal-clear that BCPs are approved by the IESG after an IETF consensus call. So we've now discovered a pretty bad set of data in the datatracker.
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[22:37:04] <ajs> I think clapping has always been a thing at the IETF.  We do it frequently at plenaries, and given the agenda this is a plenary session :)
[22:37:25] <=JeffH> <claps> :)
[22:37:26] <sftcd> I don't believe there's a real problem with crap crypto RFCs
[22:38:15] <Brian Carpenter> yes, PHB speaks for himself, there are others who disagree
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[22:38:41] <Ole Jacobsen> Where is Klensin? I was told there would be Klensin!
[22:39:03] <Brian Carpenter> he's listening quietly
[22:39:06] <stpeter> He's sitting right across the aisle from me, but sitting down.
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[22:39:50] <Ole Jacobsen> hmmm
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[22:40:01] <Abdussalam Baryun> voice is lost
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[22:40:11] <Abdussalam Baryun> ok now
[22:40:41] <meetecho> Yep, sorry, we were trying to fix the ugly audio and had to interrupt for a second
[22:40:45] <meetecho> Is it better now?
[22:40:55] <hildjj> yes, thank you.
[22:40:55] <Nevil Brownlee> yes
[22:40:56] <Abdussalam Baryun> yes
[22:40:58] <Ole Jacobsen> yes it is!
[22:41:00] <Abdussalam Baryun> thanks
[22:41:31] <meetecho> Nice to hear, thx! This is the only room that really made us go crazy all day long :)
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[22:41:53] <resnick> Who is speaking>
[22:41:55] <resnick> ?
[22:42:06] <Alissa Cooper> Chris Wood
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[22:42:16] <resnick> thx
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[22:46:42] <Spencer Dawkins> @danyork, I understood the question - I wanted to know how Jen answered it! ;-)
[22:47:46] <Spencer Dawkins> 200 people in the room and a long mike line - is this QUIC? :D
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[22:48:10] <Martin Thomson> there might be a longer line than for the spin bit
[22:48:18] <=JeffH> 2 long lines…..
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[22:48:49] <Ole Jacobsen> Maybe this is where someone should stand up and challenge Richards selective survey methodology!!!
[22:48:50] <Martin Thomson> "The IETF, doin' lines"
[22:48:56] <Spencer Dawkins> @=JeffH, that's not reassuring ...
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[22:49:43] <Spencer Dawkins> @Martin, that may map onto the question from Jen's friends better than it should ...
[22:49:47] <sftcd> so richard says that we can take 500  years to fix a paper cut?
[22:50:45] <resnick> We’re quoting Orwell now?
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[22:51:59] <ajs> @resnick: yes, we have always been at war with EBCDIC
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[22:52:22] <=JeffH> …and unicode
[22:52:46] <ajs> No, no, we are at peace with Unicode.  Obviously.
[22:52:48] <Suzanne> @ajs since Godwin's law has been suspended, why not revert to Orwell?
[22:53:10] <=JeffH> with a dash of huxley?
[22:53:20] <stpeter> Zamyatin!
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[22:53:30] <resnick> We need to have “Double-plus good RFC”.
[22:53:33] <mnot> Education is putting our problems onto millions of developers (the real external audience). They’re not going to take the time to read our education materials; they don’t read much of what we write now.
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[22:54:07] <stpeter> mnot++
[22:54:09] <Suzanne> @mnot this is one side of the discussion we're having in DNSOP, about what's the role of the standard in the evolution of the protocol
[22:54:32] <Brian Carpenter> @mnot: True. They don't read the document header or the status section. So why would they care about the document label?
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[22:55:22] <hta> Should RFC 9999 be the last RFC?
[22:55:32] <=JeffH> good question
[22:55:40] <richard.barnes> Seems like as good a cut point as any
[22:55:45] <richard.barnes> I hear the tools are going to break anyway
[22:55:52] <Brian Carpenter> No. We'll cycle back to RFC0000
[22:55:54] <mnot> Right. We need to be much more subtle, and we probably need the services of a professional who understands the subtleties of communicating with visual design (e.g., a book/publication designer).
[22:56:02] <stpeter> No one should ever need more than 10k RFCs.
[22:56:08] mnot notes that his wife is a publication designer
[22:56:09] <richard.barnes> RFCs beyond 9999 cause undefined behavior
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[22:56:34] <hta> you mean RFCs below 9999 don't?
[22:56:52] <Suzanne> so we have an RFC 10k problem now?
[22:57:02] <mnot> It’s been coming for a while
[22:57:04] <=JeffH> the other ted sez: one for all and all for one ?
[22:57:06] <stpeter> s/rfcplusplus/badattitude/ ?
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[22:59:58] <mnot> Again, THAT DOES NOT SCAOE
[23:00:10] <mnot> scale. Damn Apple keyboard.
[23:00:12] <=JeffH> scaoe ?
[23:00:15] <Melinda> +1, mnot
[23:00:25] <=JeffH> ah
[23:00:28] <richard.barnes> The ITU might not be the best example case for the rest of the Internet
[23:00:33] <mnot> HHAH
[23:00:36] <ted.h> Actually, the IAB just had to send a liaison to SG2 to reinforce that to ITU-T.  We may have fixed it that way for 10 years, and that may be good enough, but it is not permanent.
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[23:00:49] <Melinda> Plus, any solution that's predicated on other people changing their behavior is likely to fail
[23:00:51] <Brian Carpenter> @Ole: JCK is in line now, about 10th in line.
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[23:01:13] <Ole Jacobsen> @Brian, I am glad to hear that ;-)
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[23:06:09] <Brian Carpenter> At least STD25 is an easy read (one full page plus 6 lines)
[23:06:11] <Abdussalam Baryun> good point
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[23:07:53] <ajs> Perhaps we should have a "+" endirsement for RFCs that are short and easy to understand (so STD25 could get an RFC++++ designation, for instance).  Correspondingly, I suppose, there ought to be "-" endorsements too
[23:08:02] <Brian Carpenter> I reckon I'd need about 30 lines of Python to fully implement STD25.
[23:08:26] <Martin Thomson> brian Carpenter: less, it's python
[23:08:35] <Melinda> Another thing is that the process of getting a document to publication has gotten more rigorous over the past few decades, and in some sense an IETF consensus RFC published today represents something a bit different from what they've represented in the past.
[23:08:41] <Melinda> import daytime
[23:09:14] <ajs> @Melinda: I think this was related to Ted Hardie's point: RFC 1 describes what we now do as I-Ds, really.
[23:09:23] <hta> I think we should have Facebook-style thumbs-up and thumbs-down on RFCs. Drafts, too.
[23:09:41] <richard.barnes> hta: I don’t think FB has thumbs-down, but we definitely should
[23:09:43] <Melinda> Yes (and yes)
[23:09:57] <Melinda> thumbs-up and crying face
[23:10:25] <stpeter> word of the day: omphaloskepsis
[23:10:28] <hta> "this RFC looks plausible, but with 4789 crying faces, I'm not sure I really want to try implementing it"
[23:10:30] <=JeffH> so then we can track users across the internet and sell ads to the vendors behind the RFCs !!
[23:11:00] <richard.barnes> hta: we could just copy Slack’s emoji reactions
[23:11:39] <ajs> Some of us might be tempted to comment on the fundraising possibilities of selling RFC numbers :)
[23:11:41] <=JeffH> Omphaloskepsis or navel-gazing is contemplation of one's navel as an aid to meditation
[23:12:01] <stpeter> Go forth and meditate!
[23:12:20] <Suzanne> @ajs you can sponsor an emoji, why not an RFC?
[23:12:48] <ajs> Exactly!  Since the sponsoring of emojis has been so beneficial to the Unicode Consortium.
[23:13:16] <Abdussalam Baryun> quality as said before is needed for rfcs
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[23:15:08] <Martin Thomson> Because I'm not really listening: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/168698/daytime-protocol
[23:15:31] <hildjj> wait.  i thought we were talking about the problem statement.  JCK just claimed that we didn't know how to solve these problems.
[23:15:41] <hildjj> that's moving the bar for this discussion.
[23:16:17] <richard.barnes> Have the mic lines been cut?
[23:16:20] <mnot> yes
[23:16:27] <ted.h> @richard yes
[23:16:39] <Martin Thomson> It's interesting to see so many exhortations toward quality.  That's in direct contradiction to the goals that Lucy read out earlier.  But it's reflective of the change in how we use the series.  As the IETF, that's especially so for the IETF stream.
[23:16:47] <=JeffH> they must've been cuz they getting shorter…
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[23:17:14] <richard.barnes> I’ll say it here, then: I could not care less what RFC 3 says.  We’re here to solve the problems of today
[23:17:58] <Martin Thomson> My point here is that RFC 3 doesn't reflect modern reality.
[23:18:31] <stpeter> Party like it's 1969!
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[23:19:01] <richard.barnes> RFC 3 has even been obsoleted!
[23:19:31] <richard.barnes> An Internet Proposal -- an IP!
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[23:21:44] <Brian Carpenter> Fred Baker used to say the Internet runs on Proposed Standard RFCs. Isn't the truth now that it runs on GitHub repos?
[23:22:28] <sftcd> that sounds urgent - can we do away with apr1 rfcs in the next month?
[23:22:29] <mnot> yes. Which begs the question - what value to we provide?
[23:22:29] <Abdussalam Baryun> the rfc process created such confusions, so best solution to update stream process.
[23:23:22] <hta> I think we need to work out how to do living standards in the IETF. Then we can forget about all this RFC stuff.
[23:23:35] <mnot> import whatwg;
[23:23:50] <llanolddog> All cases of confusion that have ever been are (presumably) resulting from RFCs already published. But no one talks about fixing that.
[23:24:07] <richard.barnes> Lots of strawmen here, Warren
[23:24:21] <llanolddog> Most cases of confusion going forward will result from RFCs already published. Ditto
[23:24:41] <Samuel Weiler> mnot: can we annex it instead?
[23:24:42] <resnick> As I always say: I’m fond of straw men. They make quiet neighbors, and they don’t smoke.
[23:25:12] <richard.barnes> resnick: if you think they don’t smoke, apparently you don’t have the same fun with strawmen I do
[23:25:58] <mnot> sam: you tried, didn’t you?
[23:25:59] <resnick> Well, that’s only because you’ve applied peer pressure, Richard.
[23:26:14] =JeffH burns lots more calories when trying parse ekr-stream in real time….
[23:26:49] <Abdussalam Baryun> Also the ADs of the IETF need to do more work to solve the problem that I think it is a management problem,
[23:27:15] <Samuel Weiler> mnot: yeah, but the IETF is a better home for them.
[23:27:18] <Abdussalam Baryun> refc process mgm problm'
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[23:27:24] <mnot> sam: agreed, actually.
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[23:29:34] <hildjj> There were two drafts on the reading list for this BoF.
[23:30:04] <richard.barnes> RFD
[23:30:11] <Brian Carpenter> yes, but not mentioned in the agenda
[23:30:16] <Abdussalam Baryun> yes they did not mention drafts
[23:30:17] <ted.h> Rural Free Delivery?
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[23:30:45] <richard.barnes> becarpenter: given that people think that reading boilerplate is something we should expect people to do...
[23:30:56] <resnick> Rear flank downdraft.
[23:31:06] <richard.barnes> Really F’ing Dull
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[23:31:35] <resnick> Rockford International Airport, for that matter.
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[23:32:32] <stpeter> https://airportcod.es/#airport/rfd
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[23:32:53] <=JeffH> now heather is gonna tell us what's gonna happen
[23:33:04] <richard.barnes> Airportcod.es <http://Airportcod.es> sounds like a vendor of questionable seafood
[23:33:23] <stpeter> Not questionable, just Spanish.
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[23:33:44] <resnick> You don’t buy your cod in airports?
[23:33:52] <resnick> Short trip:
[23:33:52] <resnick> http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=yul-rfd
[23:34:12] <stpeter> Duty-free cod from Spain. Yum.
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[23:34:27] <resnick> I have no thoughts. I am thoughtless.
[23:34:39] <resnick> Yay!
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[23:35:01] <mnot> Pete is an empty husk.
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[23:35:10] <stpeter> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7282
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[23:35:20] <stpeter> meeting adjourned
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