IETF
rfcefdp
rfcefdp@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, November 10, 2021< ^ >
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[14:28:44] <Joel Halpern_web_937> Hello Robert
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[14:31:06] <Martin Thomson_web_726> Though I think we are worse for the lack of his involvement, I am glad Brian Carpenter decided to sleep.  This timing is BRUTAL.
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[14:31:47] <Rich Salz_web_897> minutes at https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-112-rfcedfdp#  feel free to contribute.
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[14:33:09] <Martin Thomson_web_726> Rich is taking notes
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[14:33:40] <Samuel Weiler> rfcefdp or rfcedfdp?
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[14:33:43] <stpeter> https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-112-rfcedfdp seems to be the place
[14:33:58] <stpeter> Sam, no "ed" in there
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[14:34:37] <Samuel Weiler> looks like one to me.  (I got confused about this when trying to join jabber, hence me flagging it.)
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[14:35:27] <Martin Thomson_web_726> I'm getting a pointer from each document to the other.  Pick one folks.
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[14:36:21] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> why do we need an attendees list in the notes?
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[14:36:48] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> okay gone now :-)
[14:37:04] <Martin Thomson_web_726> apologies, I just deleted it, it was starting to metastasize
[14:37:27] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_397> Are the relevant issues at https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues?
[14:37:35] <Martin Thomson_web_726> these slides are really quite tiny
[14:37:44] <Martin Thomson_web_726> Jeffrey: yse
[14:38:15] <Martin Thomson_web_726> issues!
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[14:39:39] <Charles Eckel_web_282> clicking on "Expand Video" helps a bit
[14:40:04] <Martin Thomson_web_726> remove the notes and the ribbon?
[14:40:19] <Martin Thomson_web_726> the other mode
[14:40:29] Peter Koch_web_107 joins the room
[14:40:53] <Lucy Lynch_web_591> Note that this was not an open RFCEd community comment period as it has limited to registered IETF attendees. Broad comment options are still needed
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[14:41:46] <Martin Thomson_web_726> it has ceased to be late already
[14:42:24] <stpeter> Lucy Lynch_web_591: I'm confused, can't anyone join the program mailing list?
[14:42:25] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> chairs: Basically go to the setting icon in the right up corner, select "manage slides" (? not sure about the exact wording) and convert the slide set. Then you can use the "share slides" icon up left under you name between the hand and share screen button.
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[14:43:23] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> yes, please Peter can decide
[14:43:34] <Martin Thomson_web_726> on 106, Mirja's tweak is good
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[14:43:59] <stpeter> Lucy Lynch_web_591: But a wider comment period is of course planned after the program last call.
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[14:44:27] <Martin Thomson_web_726> on 107, Mirja's comment is good,  this level of detail is appropriate for an abstract, but the intro probably needs a sentence on each update
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[14:47:11] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> I want to note that Brian Carpenter objected to 8174
[14:47:32] <Brian Rosen_web_654> noted.  Anyone else concerned?
[14:47:35] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> Actually, credit where it's due, the 2418 was Brian again :)
[14:47:38] <Jay Daley_web_254> I think this session has the highest dot-to-person ratio on the attendee list so far.
[14:47:41] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> I just objected to the other one
[14:48:11] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> just for the record, these are all fine for me
[14:48:23] <Martin Thomson_web_726> I made a few suggestions (editorial level) on the issues.
[14:48:44] <stpeter> I'll propose / check text on list for all of these before submitting -06
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[14:49:21] <Martin Thomson_web_726> that was just clarification
[14:49:24] <Martin Thomson_web_726> I'm OK with the outcome
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[14:51:35] <Martin Thomson_web_726> go fullscreen please and zoom a little
[14:51:42] <Martin Thomson_web_726> if we're sharing screens, let's make it legible
[14:51:59] <stpeter> or go to https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/114
[14:52:24] <Martin Thomson_web_726> for 500kbps, we could at least get legibility
[14:52:30] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_397> Still worth zooming.
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[14:54:28] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> so the slide says for #114 "Proposed text" and "Accept" but I don't understand what the proposed text is...?
[14:55:51] <Rich Salz_web_897> +1 to ekr's comments about MSJ proposal.
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[14:56:33] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> We have this text in the intro: "Under the auspices of this program, the community considered changes that would increase transparency and community input regarding the definition of policies for the RFC Series as a whole, while at the same time ensuring the continuity of the RFC Series, maintaining RFC quality, maintaining timely processing, ensuring document accessibility, and clarifying lines of authority and responsibility."
[14:56:47] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> for me that would also be the right list as guidelines for the rswg
[14:56:49] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> This text seems eminently sensible!
[14:56:50] <Mark Nottingham_web_850> +1 Christian
[14:57:32] <Martin Thomson_web_726> This text is exactly the sort of motherhood the document really needs.  Let's not do the work of the RSWG before it is formed.
[14:57:57] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> My answer to that question is: yes!
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[14:58:21] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> (though of course I would oppose a change to any language other than Esperanto)
[14:58:37] <Martin Thomson_web_726> Yes.  Changing the series to be published in Mandarin is something the community should be empowered to do (just giving an example).
[14:58:55] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> I thought we could just switch to German...? I mean Lars and I can decide that, right?
[14:58:58] <Mark Nottingham_web_850> 'Guardrails' implies a mistrust of the community.
[14:59:00] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> I guess I could live with Loglan or Klingon
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[14:59:18] <Martin Thomson_web_726> Is Swedish Chef not an option?
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[14:59:56] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> I guess that German would make RFCss quite a bit longer though... not sure if that is good for the cost per page ratio
[15:00:29] <Martin Thomson_web_726> We don't really understand the cost of publication well enough to be able to make statements like that.
[15:00:43] <ekr@jabber.org> @Mirja: I think you would need to consult with Colin as well.
[15:00:52] <ekr@jabber.org> Maybe some kind of joint German/Scottish publication?
[15:00:57] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> so you mean costs should not be reason to not switch to German? Okay!
[15:01:14] <Martin Thomson_web_726> publishing in Scots would be interesting
[15:01:16] <Colin Perkins_web_685> Learning German probably counts as research, right?
[15:02:00] <Lucas Pardue_web_187> If I google welsh RFC, all I get are links to rugby sites
[15:02:11] <Rich Salz_web_897> If we end up with the empty set, that is okay, because it is ingrained in the community.
[15:02:25] <Lucy Lynch_web_591> Plus one to Joel
[15:02:36] <Rich Salz_web_897> -1 to joel.
[15:03:08] <Jay Daley_web_254> Can the RSAB as documented reject an RSWG output if they think it is out of scope?
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[15:03:50] <Martin Thomson_web_726> and closed the tab
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[15:04:38] <Pete Resnick_web_139> Cats clearly do not believe in closing of the queue; they shall be heard!
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[15:05:13] <Joel Halpern_web_937> Hmmm.   What Eliot just said is much stronger than just that there needs to be rough consensus for new text?
[15:05:25] <Rich Salz_web_897> time-bounded to get tehre.
[15:06:07] <Martin Thomson_web_726> time-bounded is a good thing; I understand that Mike is busy, but having his text before this meeting would have been good
[15:06:31] <Brian Rosen_web_654> Seems like if there is a line in the sand the RSWG/RSAB shall not pass, that should be documented, and maybe some hint of what process can be used to make a change beyond that line
[15:06:54] <ekr@jabber.org> @Brian: and also, are there lines that no process can change
[15:07:01] <Brian Rosen_web_654> <s individual>
[15:07:05] <Joel Halpern_web_937> To answer EKR's quesiton from my perspective, the difference is that  a formal process led by the IESG / IAB will generally get more attention than an RFC proposal from the RSWG.
[15:08:26] <Martin Thomson_web_726> I don't think that is a meaningful difference.  if something is important enough, those bodies can (and probably should) engage that sort of process as part of the development of a proposal.
[15:09:16] <Martin Thomson_web_726> CONCERN: this is a big change and it needs wider consultation with the community.
[15:09:48] <Joel Halpern_web_937> @Martin That is counting on people individually and without direction deciding to "do the right thing".  We generally hope that happens.  But when we think it important, we tell bodies what "right" looks like.
[15:11:13] <Martin Thomson_web_726> Joel: I don't think that we lack for the necessary prompts for that.
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[15:12:19] <Martin Thomson_web_726> The main problem with attempting to set guard rails is that we don't agree on the shape of those.  Indeed, part of the point of this process is to allow those disagreements to proceed, each at their own pace, in a forum.
[15:14:11] <Martin Thomson_web_726> The specific concern you raise about engagement with different communities is something the draft addresses directly.
[15:14:19] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> can we move on and take it to the list again?
[15:15:36] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> can move on to the issues that need discussion?
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[15:16:23] <ekr@jabber.org> Mirja, I agree with that, but with only 15 minutes left....
[15:16:47] <Mark Nottingham_web_850> I guess we'll be having another interim then...
[15:16:57] <Martin Thomson_web_726> mnot: yep
[15:17:03] <Mark Nottingham_web_850> yay.
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[15:17:34] <Martin Thomson_web_726> :raised_hands:
[15:18:03] <Martin Thomson_web_726> I'm glad that we managed to discharge some of these.
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[15:20:24] <stpeter> Martin's concern seems legitimate.
[15:20:29] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> Ive spent enough time at the mic but I do
[15:20:51] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> Sorry, pressed the wrong button
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[15:22:23] <Christian Huitema_web_429> Shall we assume that anyone born after 1978 can never interpret the principles of the series?
[15:23:07] <Brian Rosen_web_654> maybe the criteria is never got a flame from Jon
[15:23:40] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> Fortunately, I was born before 1978
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[15:24:40] <Martin Thomson_web_726> I'm sorry, I don't understand Mike's objection here.
[15:24:53] <John Klensin_web_324> Aside from prior discussion: the questions of accountability, an effective appeals process, and the "ultimate authority" discussion are all. IMO,  intertwined.  So, if we sort out the latter two in a way that people are happy about, the accountability question becomes OBE, rather than closed/discarded.
[15:25:49] <Lucy Lynch_web_591> Martin’s language establishes a virtuous circle (good) but the gap for approving new policy may need a tweak
[15:26:37] <Brian Rosen_web_654> Please send text
[15:27:20] <Martin Thomson_web_726> I like stpeter's proposal.
[15:27:21] <John Klensin_web_324> Why 1978?  How about 1969?
[15:28:03] <stpeter> As I said on list, I think statements are not a good idea.
[15:28:14] <Eric Rescorla_web_932> all joking aside, I don't agree that the right way to determine what's right for the RFC series is to go back to some kind of original understanding of its principles
[15:28:33] <stpeter> Strict originalism!
[15:28:49] <Rich Salz_web_897> that's an argument in favor of ekr :)
[15:29:08] <Martin Thomson_web_726> constitutional law: engineer style
[15:29:59] <ekr@jabber.org> We could write a new policy document that empowered us to make statements!
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[15:30:55] <Mark Nottingham_web_850> Mirja: don't buy it. The IAB controls what's on the IAB stream.
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[15:31:37] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> I just saying if a statement needs community consensus you don't win much
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[15:32:04] <ekr@jabber.org> Yeah, AOB is out of order here :)
[15:32:05] <Jay Daley_web_254> What Mirja says makes sense
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[15:32:26] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> I guess the IAB could publish everything as statements but sometimes RFCs are easier to find
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[15:32:50] <Mark Nottingham_web_850> RFCs are *not* easier to find; they are the filing cabinet in the closet at the bottom of the stairs.
[15:32:52] <ekr@jabber.org> plus they're archival
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[15:33:02] <ekr@jabber.org> @mnot: that's the archive
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[15:33:13] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> easy to find and read by someone active in the IETF
[15:33:18] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> depends on the audience
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[15:33:50] <Mark Nottingham_web_850> s/active in the IETF/who remembers a four (soon five) digit number/
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[15:33:59] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> IAB statement are often directed at an "outer" audience
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[15:34:33] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> we all love these numbers, no?
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[15:34:46] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> that who you feel being part of the community :-)
[15:34:56] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_594> s/who/how/
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[15:35:51] <Mark Nottingham_web_850> It's kind of an absurd process to essentially publish a web page. There isn't anyone who implements it externally.
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