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[06:09:08] <brong> Jabber likewise doesn't provide chat history when you join a room... oh well
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[06:27:53] <Mark Nottingham> *are* they expected to grow the streams/
[06:27:54] <Mark Nottingham> ?
[06:29:05] <brong> does this mean source additional documents?  In that case, what does it do to the value of the brand "RFC"?
[06:30:37] <brong> Just a contractor => paid more and gets listened to
[06:32:26] <ekr@jabber.org> I find that a bit puzzling as well. When I hire a lawyer, I care about their opinion and respect it, but that doesn't mean that I let them make my decisions for me
[06:39:54] <Mike StJohns> Wrong example.  Think financial advisor or money manager.
[06:40:26] <Mike StJohns> Long term, not task relationship, substantial expertise imbalance
[06:41:01] <ekr@jabber.org> I am free to change financial advisors at any time for any reason
[06:41:41] <brong> building surveyor: you can't shop around until you get one who will bend the rules for you
[06:41:48] <Mike StJohns> sure, but you don't noodle individual stock or bond sales...
[06:42:02] <brong> (at least not here in Aus... once one has been assigned to a job, you can't fire them without mutual agreement)
[06:42:36] <ekr@jabber.org> Well, in fact, people sometimes do think about individual sales
[06:42:41] <Jared Mauch> (in america it depends on the contract, but often you can terminate)
[06:43:00] <ekr@jabber.org> As for building surveyors that seems like a very poor analogy, because there aren't really any rules here
[06:50:41] <Mike StJohns> Decision about using theRFC series for IETF documents - not standards at that point -  happened at NCAR - 8th IETF Nov 1987
[06:53:31] <Mike StJohns> Actually going into the standards business happened around the 15th IETF - Hawaii in Nov 89
[07:01:44] <brong> ekr@jabber.org: agree, it's mostly tooling that's the issue here
[07:02:09] <Jared Mauch> to what extent should the tooling be easy?
[07:02:15] <Mark Nottingham> +1 to tooling being the major problem. But we need a strategy for the tooling too.
[07:02:27] <Mark Nottingham> s/the/a/
[07:02:35] <brong> Jared Mauch: I have a whole email about it which boils down to "the documents are not processed in the preferred form for modifications"
[07:02:53] <brong> aka, it's not "open source"
[07:03:23] <Jared Mauch> yes, the "not open source" culture is strong in the IETF, people die on many hills
[07:04:12] <brong> Jared Mauch: I expect I didn't describe it properly
[07:04:58] <Jared Mauch> I recently had someone say they don't want to use a tool because it's closed-source tooling/SaaS
[07:05:01] <brong> to the first approximation, people doesn't edit in XML directly, and until recently the editors didn't even work in the XML
[07:05:19] <csperkins> I like editing the XML directly :)
[07:05:36] <Jared Mauch> I would edit the XML, but trying to get some stuff right is painful (eg: ascii art)
[07:06:20] <Jared Mauch> but is that a bar that is too high, people who can hand-edit XML?
[07:06:37] <ekr@jabber.org> Well, we finally got to having XML right about when we were a large part of the way to markdown
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