[12:17:40] yone joins the room [12:20:31] yone has set the subject to: précis wg :) | http://tools.ietf.org/wg/precis/ | IETF 89 | slides at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/89/materials.html#precis | audio at http://ietf89streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf894.m3u [13:03:24] resnick joins the room [13:03:29] jimsch1 joins the room [13:03:55] No audio up yet [13:04:04] nemo joins the room [13:04:05] It should be. [13:04:11] Let me ask the secretariat. [13:04:23] xnyhps joins the room [13:04:49] Andrew Sullivan joins the room [13:05:07] Secretariat is checking into audio. [13:05:09] m&m joins the room [13:05:13] I will do jabber scribing, but I warn you that my Adium seems to crash from time to time [13:05:15] thx [13:05:21] Zash joins the room [13:05:21] WG deliverables (5) [13:05:26] etherpad at http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-89-precis?useMonospaceFont=true [13:06:27] slide 6 [13:06:58] hoping for IETF LC on framework, so if you have comments now, better send em! [13:07:15] Pete Resnick @ mic [13:07:19] yoiwa joins the room [13:07:37] -mappings, 2d WGLC [13:07:41] ended yesterday [13:07:59] stpeter joins the room [13:08:12] -nickname: waiting for a writeup [13:08:44] -saslprepbis: lots of discussion. Apparent consensus, time for WGLC, need to forward to kitten [13:09:40] scope issue? [13:09:54] Peter Saint-Andre [13:10:07] Barry Leiba joins the room [13:10:32] joseph.yee joins the room [13:10:49] worth figuring out whether replace more general protocols. Generalise more? Alexey @ mic: maybe needs more attention? [13:11:42] [lost name] probably can share with http [13:12:13] St.Peter again: John Klensin had brought up something about potential of having too many profiles [13:12:26] This seems to be an example [13:13:39] audio is up now [13:14:06] Pete Resnick: like to hear from Barry or Alexey: is httpauth going to balk at doing what we think they should eb doing? [13:14:23] Barry: httpauth thinks precis isn't ready yet [13:14:38] satoru.kanno@jabber.org joins the room [13:15:06] Alexey again: pointers should be delivered [13:15:42] Pete R: framework took a while to do, need to figure out how to get the next thing out quickly [13:15:48] review things please! [13:16:55] discuss on ML: separate doc or one doc. [13:17:16] [name] are there other examples than http and sasl? [13:17:29] Is audio working now> [13:17:30] ? [13:17:43] David Black: for iscsi something more specialized [13:17:49] Ah, I just saw Jim' s comment. [13:17:51] yes, I am listening from remote [13:17:52] Good. [13:18:13] Unless anyone objects I'll stop trying to summarize, then :) [13:19:01] Asking for other examples are from me, Yutaka OIWA. [13:19:02] Takahiro Nemoto on mappings document [13:19:26] @yoiwa: thanks! [13:19:44] slide 2: issue from IETF 88 [13:20:19] slide 3 [13:20:28] yoiwa: http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-oiwa-precis-httpauthprep-00.txt is the document we need to read, correct? [13:20:55] stpeter: Yes, please. [13:20:57] Franck Martin joins the room [13:21:13] solution uses SpecialCasing.txt [13:21:15] yoiwa: (sorry, I called you Yusuke at the mic!) [13:21:25] (see slide) [13:21:47] m&m leaves the room [13:21:50] slide 4 [13:21:51] m&m joins the room [13:21:52] oops, [13:21:54] slide 5 now [13:22:13] @stpeter: never mind :-) [13:22:21] slide 6 [13:22:41] slide 7 [13:23:34] David Black @ mic [13:23:40] yoiwa: perhaps you, Alexey, and I can find time this week to discuss your draft - is there anyone else that we need to include? [13:23:44] problem with Turkish [13:23:48] How complete do we think the table is? [13:24:17] (not just Turkish, but AFAIK several Turkic languages including Azeri and perhaps a few others) [13:24:29] @stpeter: yeah [13:24:59] John Klensin thinks it worse [13:25:10] (that's not a report, it's an analytic truth :) ) [13:25:30] I think its Lemma [13:26:02] Andrew Sullivan: :-) [13:26:24] Andrew Sullivan: nice side-reference to the analytic-synthetic distinction :-) [13:27:26] Alex [misheard]: Turkic, not necessarily Turkish. [13:28:26] Klensin again: ARabic/Cyrillic [13:28:41] much suggestion about using point of gun for consensus [13:28:48] Pete Resnick: [13:28:58] Informational or Standards track? [13:31:05] Ponies! [13:31:19] pony with laser and wings sounds like dragon [13:31:38] @yoiwa: I just looked at draft-oiwa-precis-httpauthprep again - in fact I think there is very little difference beween the username profile in your document and the username profile in draft-ietf-precis-saslprepbis [13:33:09] @yoiwa: draft-oiwa-precis-httpauthprep-00 says "Case mapping is not applied." vs. draft-ietf-precis-saslprepbis-06 says "Uppercase and titlecase characters might be mapped to their lowercase equivalents..." [13:33:13] hmm [13:34:17] that was (I think in order) Klensin, me, Joe Hildebrand, me again, Joe again [13:34:48] I think Joe is arguing for locale-on-the-wire, but I'm not sure [13:34:53] Pete Resnick [13:35:04] I cannot connect to tools.ietf.org...why? [13:35:26] dunno. It worked for me just now [13:35:34] (and I'm right behind you :) ) [13:35:53] which wireless point are you on? [13:36:07] I'm using ietf-a1.x [13:36:31] @andrew: I'm using ietf-a.1x [13:36:46] John Klensin [13:37:26] Is draft-oiwa-precis-httpauthprep expired? [13:37:40] jimsch1: yes [13:37:50] tools is working for me, and I'm on .1x [13:37:59] http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-oiwa-precis-httpauthprep-00.txt - it expired in early January [13:38:11] now I use another terminal for checking saslprepbis draft. [13:38:45] stpeter: my main concerns on applying saslprepbis for http are: [13:39:05] 1) (ABNF) syntax definition of username too strict and sasl specific [13:39:36] 2) MAY apply case mapping vs not to apply [13:41:11] yoiwa: based on feedback from Nico Williams, we changed "MAY" to "might" :-) [13:42:10] that was David Black. Now Joe H. [13:42:31] Now Klensin [13:42:35] yoiwa: I think http-auth could say "the PRECIS framework says that case mapping might occur, but that is a bit too permissive so please don't do that in http-auth" [13:43:48] 3) sections describing how to apply: e.g. 4.2.1, 5.2, 6... to merge I need to carefully review these again as a general guidance [13:44:17] that was me. Pete Resnick next [13:44:18] yoiwa leaves the room [13:44:43] yoiwa joins the room [13:44:43] Joe Hildebrand joins the room [13:45:01] Klensin will write stuff, Joe H will review [13:45:19] DAvid Black also volunteered [13:46:12] Marc Blanchet joins the room [13:46:15] @stpeter: for example, having cared about 1) and some of 3), I may be able to write a document "HTTPAUTHprep sub-profile", or "How to apply PRECIS framework to HTTP Auth", referring to the unified rule contained in SASLPREPbis. [13:46:22] David Black [13:46:34] Peter Saint-Andre [13:46:53] Barry Leiba [13:47:26] [Long line at mic to discuss procedural wrangling] [13:47:26] I think the summary was something like: 1) create a list of characters that are known to be unstable under mapping 2) if you have one of those characters in the input, yield an error of some kind 3) if that error comes up, you might want to ask the user to re-input in the mapped form, or the programmer may be smarter than we are here and be able to do something better. [13:47:50] @Joe under (1), though, it's "unstable under mapping under any locale" [13:47:55] Do we need a process for (1) to grow? [13:48:00] That was John Klensin [13:48:16] Alexey Melnikov [13:48:20] Andrew: yes [13:48:29] Pete Resnick [13:48:45] but there might be different lists for different mappings? [13:48:52] jimsch1: I assume [13:49:09] right, but the general principle was, "If it might be unstable, don't use it this way" [13:49:27] this path is how we got to "no upper case" in IDNA, note [13:49:32] Barry [13:49:37] now John [13:50:23] Marc Blanchet from chair [13:50:56] Klensin [13:52:18] Pete Resnick [13:52:23] Andrew Sullivan: yes, that's fine [13:55:18] David Black [13:56:43] Marc [13:57:11] yoiwa: yes, that might work - I need to look at the ABNF again too [13:57:29] Joe H [13:58:17] Marc [13:58:34] StPeter [13:59:34] Barry Leiba leaves the room [14:01:07] that was me [14:01:26] then Alex McDonald [Mcdonald?] [14:01:31] David Black [14:02:55] yoiwa: as to the ABNF, I think draft-ietf-precis-saslprepbis-06 is less strict than draft-oiwa-precis-httpauthprep-00 [14:03:00] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [14:03:11] we're out of time, going to list [14:03:12] ralphm joins the room [14:03:34] Zash leaves the room [14:03:42] Joe Hildebrand leaves the room [14:03:44] resnick leaves the room [14:04:22] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room [14:04:30] ralphm leaves the room: offline [14:04:30] m&m leaves the room [14:04:52] satoru.kanno@jabber.org leaves the room [14:04:59] jimsch1 leaves the room [14:05:03] yoiwa leaves the room [14:05:04] yone leaves the room [14:05:22] nemo leaves the room [14:05:38] joseph.yee leaves the room [14:13:37] Joe Hildebrand joins the room [14:13:37] Franck Martin joins the room [14:13:52] Franck Martin leaves the room [14:14:46] Franck Martin joins the room [14:16:15] Joe Hildebrand leaves the room [14:16:34] Marc Blanchet joins the room [14:16:34] yone joins the room [14:17:23] yone leaves the room [14:18:15] Andrew Sullivan joins the room [14:18:20] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room [14:19:00] m&m joins the room [14:19:08] satoru.kanno@jabber.org joins the room [14:19:40] m&m leaves the room [14:20:24] nemo joins the room [14:21:40] Franck Martin leaves the room [14:25:46] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [14:28:49] Marc Blanchet joins the room [14:29:52] Franck Martin leaves the room [14:42:12] joseph.yee joins the room [15:07:53] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [15:08:02] Marc Blanchet joins the room [15:31:34] joseph.yee leaves the room [15:44:43] nemo leaves the room [15:55:25] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [16:01:53] satoru.kanno@jabber.org leaves the room [16:05:12] Marc Blanchet joins the room [16:12:13] satoru.kanno@jabber.org joins the room [16:22:03] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [16:27:01] Marc Blanchet joins the room [16:29:55] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [16:44:22] Marc Blanchet joins the room [16:46:59] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [16:48:48] Marc Blanchet joins the room [16:53:13] stpeter leaves the room [17:12:53] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [17:15:22] Marc Blanchet joins the room [17:18:44] joseph.yee joins the room [17:40:18] Marc Blanchet leaves the room [18:26:03] satoru.kanno@jabber.org leaves the room [19:27:58] joseph.yee leaves the room [19:44:42] joseph.yee joins the room [23:47:09] joseph.yee leaves the room