Thursday, 29 March 2012< ^ >
yone has set the subject to: précis wg :) | | IETF 82 | slides at | audio at
Room Configuration

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[10:38:33] yone has set the subject to: précis wg :) | | IETF 83 | slides at | audio at
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[11:05:32] <m&m> slide: administrivia
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[11:05:55] <m&m> if you have questions, preface with "MIC:"
[11:05:57] resnick joins the room
[11:06:00] <m&m> slide WG deliverables
[11:06:02] <stpeter> etherpad at
[11:06:03] <hildjj> I will funnel your comments to the mic.
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[11:06:20] <stpeter> m&m I'll help you take notes in the etherpad
[11:06:25] <Florian Zeitz> Are the audio streams expected to work?
[11:06:40] <m&m> yes … ?
[11:07:01] <stpeter> expected and actual, not always the same thing
[11:07:15] <stpeter> we've had audio problems all week, here
[11:07:20] <Florian Zeitz> let me say they don't work for me then
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[11:07:28] <m&m> deck: problem statement
[11:07:34] <m&m> slide: major changes
[11:07:40] <Simon Josefsson> audio doesn't work for me either
[11:07:45] <Simon Josefsson> i'll listen to oauth instead :-)
[11:07:52] <stpeter> heh
[11:07:55] <stpeter> I'll ping the noc
[11:08:03] <stpeter> or send email to
[11:10:01] <tony.l.hansen> there's also the noc jabber room
[11:10:17] <stpeter> oh is there?
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[11:17:16] <hildjj> The Unicode confusable algorithm:
[11:18:15] <hildjj> I'd suggest we use language that matches, if possible
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[11:20:53] <m&m> slide: Symbols
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[11:25:53] <m&m> slide Punctuation
[11:25:55] <m&m> slide Spaces
[11:26:13] <hildjj> sorry I wasted mic time w/ a poor joke.
[11:28:18] <m&m> slide LetterDigit
[11:28:23] <m&m> *s
[11:28:52] <hildjj> Example of a Titlecase Letter: Dž
[11:29:29] <hildjj> IDNA200 only included "Latin"
[11:31:16] <m&m> slid Remaining Tasks
[11:31:54] <Andrew Sullivan> @hildjj: surely it was the _correctly named_ LATIN. No J, for instance.
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[11:50:05] <Andrew Sullivan> I've been at the mic too much, so I won't say this there, but if the idea is that we're going to introduce a "dangerousNameClass", I don't see why it's anything other than FreeClass. For the same reason you can have a space in your IMAP username, you can have all kinds of other crap in there
[11:50:44] <marc.blanchet.qc> I agree with you (even if I was the one to throw out that idea on the table).
[11:50:53] <Andrew Sullivan> At that point, we need to figure out all the things that people are allowed to have, and that means in effect anything in FreeClass, with maybe a couple exclusions
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[11:52:59] <stpeter> m&m: I'll take notes now in etherpad
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[11:54:33] <m&m> slid additional case mapping
[11:54:49] <m&m> /-:
[11:54:56] <m&m> I've been disconnected from the etherpad
[11:55:03] <stpeter> I'm still connected
[11:55:20] <m&m> /whew … just reconnected without loss
[11:55:59] <m&m> reminder: if you have questions preface with "MIC"
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[11:58:14] <resnick> Every time someone mentions "what we can do with superclassing", I am becoming more convinced that superclassing is probably a bad idea.
[11:58:33] <stpeter> resnick: I'm with ya
[11:58:43] <hildjj> resnick: even though i think i'm the one that said it, i'm +1 as well
[11:58:58] <stpeter> I think it would be better to tell people they need to define another base class if they really think they need it
[11:59:02] <hildjj> you can always go back up to FreeClass, and subclass down.
[11:59:28] resnick nods
[11:59:47] <stpeter> hildjj: right
[11:59:49] <marc.blanchet.qc> yes, by default, superclass should not be allowed. so before opening this, we should really think about all its implications. so my first thinking would be to prohibit superclassing.
[12:00:02] <stpeter> sounds like consensus :)
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[12:15:54] <marc.blanchet.qc> SASLPrep Update <>
[12:15:55] <hildjj> in this case, javascript's toLocaleLowerCase() may be enough. however, NFK?C isn't available, and would be very painful to write in JS
[12:16:03] <marc.blanchet.qc>
[12:16:04] Mem Sandberg Newcomer sitting in the real room. Should say that this session so far been one of the most interresting (from a newcomers' perspective). Each speaker add knowledge to the subject and no ranting, just a positive atmosphere!
[12:16:06] <m&m> thanks for the water break (-:
[12:16:20] <m&m> slide SASLprep (RFC 4013)
[12:16:57] <resnick> Marc: Make a copy and add it to PRECIS meeting materials.
[12:17:01] <m&m> slide User Names, Bis
[12:17:32] <marc.blanchet.qc> Pete: yes, I already noted that as a todo to do after meeting.
[12:17:43] <resnick> How could I have doubted you? ;-)
[12:18:36] <hildjj> Mem Sandberg: thanks. We have the blessing here of none of us knowing quite enough to feel like we can dictate to one another. :)
[12:19:50] <Mem Sandberg> hildjj: Should maybe be applied in other WGs too :-)
[12:21:57] <hildjj> other WGs seem to attract a lot more bikeshed-gazing. this stuff is "boring" for the lower-layer protocol people.
[12:23:07] <Andrew Sullivan> Also, in many WGs you're tackling problems that are reasonably well-bounded because the charter did that to you. While our charter _sounds_ constrained, as soon as you open the Unicode worm-can, you discover what vertigo feels like.
[12:25:02] <m&m> dueling scribes!
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[12:28:28] <Klensin> Sorry to be late -- does anyone else have audio? I can't get the stream to come up.
[12:28:38] <Simon Josefsson> Klensin: audio doesn't work :-(
[12:28:52] <Klensin> Thanks. Back to normal. Sigh
[12:30:13] <m&m> please preface statements with "mic:" if you want me to relay them
[12:30:18] <m&m> just a reminder!
[12:30:32] <stpeter> Klensin: once again, I reported the problem
[12:30:46] <stpeter> much audio frustration this week :(
[12:30:46] <m&m> hrm
[12:31:41] <Mem Sandberg> Can the client may first test new normalization and if that fail try old normailzation?
[12:32:01] <m&m> sometimes, but it can be *very* expensive
[12:32:10] <Mem Sandberg> IC
[12:32:14] <Andrew Sullivan> The problem is that NFC and NFKC are not always different, so it won't be reliable
[12:32:22] <Andrew Sullivan> (problem also is)
[12:32:37] <hildjj> and the normalizations can be expensive, too.
[12:32:38] <m&m> plus, the replay could require a replay of TLS and other really expensive things to get back to that point
[12:32:52] <m&m> because some systems close things down if you fail login
[12:33:00] <m&m> slide a new customer
[12:33:07] <hildjj> mem: good idea, though.
[12:33:29] <m&m> not a bad thought, but I almost shudder at the changes needed to make that possible (-:
[12:33:35] <hildjj> mem: seriously, if you have any others, please keep them coming.
[12:33:35] <m&m> (in running code)
[12:33:49] <m&m> hildjj: +100
[12:34:02] <m&m> slide goals & requirements
[12:34:31] <m&m> slide approach
[12:34:59] <Mem Sandberg> I have nothing. Just found out about PRECIS earlier this week and thought I should go listen
[12:36:01] <hildjj> we're continuously hoping that someone comes along with a silver bullet.
[12:36:53] <Suzanne> @hildijj: silver bullet? sorry, all I have is a sharpened wooden stake.
[12:37:14] <Andrew Sullivan> Heck, a silver club or silver entrenching tool would be an improvement.
[12:38:13] <Klensin> @Suzanne, does that make you a stakeholder?
[12:38:37] <Mem Sandberg> Klensin:-)
[12:40:22] <Suzanne> @Klensin: yep.
[12:40:29] <Suzanne> With a vengeance.
[12:43:32] <hildjj> Klensin: <rimshot>
[12:43:32] <Klensin> I can't get the Etherpad to load from here either. Will keep trying but it is likely that I'm out of action until I can read minutes and/or listen to recorded audio.. Sorry.
[12:43:55] <resnick> :(
[12:44:16] <Andrew Sullivan> I missed you during the discussion of allowing spaces in the NameClass, John.
[12:46:48] <Florian Zeitz> Audio \o/
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[12:48:07] <Klensin> @Andrew: Sorry. An ITU-T -related issue took precedence.
[12:49:05] <Andrew Sullivan> No need to be sorry. It was just an interesting hole to dig.
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[12:52:21] <Klensin> @Andrew: but I think it is a great idea on condition that we not discriminate and add all the other space chararacters (No Break, Word Joiner, ZW No Break, and ZW) too. Then we can have variant identifiers :-):-P
[12:53:23] <Andrew Sullivan> I knew you would. Thanks!
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[12:57:49] <stpeter> adjourned
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