IETF
pearg
pearg@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, March 21, 2022< ^ >
alexamirante has set the subject to: PEARG IETF 112
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[11:55:41] <Barry Leiba_web_388> Are all the chairs remote?
[11:55:49] <Shivan Sahib> yes
[11:55:53] <Barry Leiba_web_388> kewl
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[11:56:09] <Barry Leiba_web_388> I'm in the room and happy to help with anything local if needed.
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[11:56:25] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> thanks Barry!
[11:56:41] <Barry Leiba_web_388> I doubt anything will be needed, though.  Things are going very smoothly.
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[11:57:20] <Tommy Pauly_web_739> I dunno, I certainly see a lot of chairs in the room in the video ;) (I apologize in advance)
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[11:57:42] <Barry Leiba_web_388> Sounds great in the room too.
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[11:58:14] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> @Tommy Pauly love it
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[11:59:04] <Sandra Siby_web_519> Hello! Do we share our own screens for the presentations or will the chairs be controlling the slides?
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[11:59:22] <Sandra Siby_web_519> (human chairs, not chair chairs ;) )
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[11:59:57] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> you can try sharing your own screen
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[12:00:06] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> as a backup, the chairs can share
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[12:00:16] <Sandra Siby_web_519> ok thanks!
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[12:00:32] <Martin Thomson_web_281> the slide sharing option is better for everyone
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[12:00:52] <Martin Thomson_web_281> much lower bandwidth, slide numbers, less chrome
[12:00:55] <Barry Leiba_web_388> You can even try the cool new thing of running your slides with your phone.
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[12:01:51] <Tommy Pauly_web_739> Yes, it's way better to use "share slides" than "share screen" - as long as the slides are pre-loaded
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[12:02:03] <Martin Thomson_web_281> the video of an empty table makes this meeting seem a bit lonely
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[12:02:32] <Barry Leiba_web_388> We can put a stuffed bear there, or lay a t-shirt on one of the Chair chairs.
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[12:03:22] <Tommy Pauly_web_739> Sara if you're talking we can't hear you
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[12:03:29] <Colin Perkins_web_495> Are the chairs talking? No audio
[12:03:33] <Mallory Knodel_web_201> TIL there's a different button for share slides than share screen. Apologies to everyone in openpgp this morning.
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[12:03:47] <Barry Leiba_web_388> About 20-25 people in the room now.
[12:03:53] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> we hear you!
[12:03:58] <Colin Perkins_web_495> That's better!
[12:04:00] <Martin Thomson_web_281> echo!
[12:04:01] <Tommy Pauly_web_739> Yes!
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[12:04:43] <Tommy Pauly_web_739> I can help take minutes
[12:04:49] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> thanks Tommy!
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[12:04:54] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-113-pearg
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[12:06:32] <Niels ten Oever_web_840> Is it me or is the an echo?
[12:06:45] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_255> Heavy reverb, yeah
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[12:06:56] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> definitely echo for me too
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[12:07:03] <Martin Thomson_web_281> it won't be you sara
[12:07:06] <Barry Leiba_web_388> I'm guessing that the in-room mic is picking up the in-room audio.
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[12:07:15] <Andrew Campling_web_241> Definitely a slight meet echo
[12:07:30] <Melchior Aelmans_web_408> Hi all!
[12:07:43] <dkg> we had the same issue (in-room mic causing echo) in OpenPGP last session
[12:07:44] <Colin Perkins_web_495> @meetecho audio echo
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[12:07:49] <Melchior Aelmans_web_408> Sound is indeed as if we are in a very large concerthall :)
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[12:08:53] <npd> does meetecho have the option to mute the in-room mic as one more participant?
[12:10:13] <Colin Perkins_web_495> The echo and empty chairs give a strong "shouting into the void" feel
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[12:10:33] <dkg> and yet we're all here in the void, shouting back ☺
[12:10:50] Colin Perkins_web_495 waves to the void
[12:10:57] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/2203.07806
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[12:12:11] <npd> is the threat identifying pages the user visits? or identifying the first visit to the index page of a popular domain?
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[12:12:43] <Martin Thomson_web_281> identifying which of the many pages a server hosts (on different origins even) that a client is loading
[12:12:45] <dkg> npd: i think the adversary is just trying to guess the site itself.
[12:12:59] <Martin Thomson_web_281> cross site even, dkg, as they stipulated use of ECH
[12:13:38] <npd> my quick read of the paper suggested that it was just index page of the top million domains, but if I read that incorrectly, that's useful to know
[12:13:59] <Andrew Campling_web_241> An obvious question is whether fingerprinting is always bad?  If a protocol becomes undetectable, an adversary may well find it particularly attractive.
[12:14:05] <Martin Thomson_web_281> I haven't read the whole thing either, so maybe you should clarify, npd
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[12:15:44] <dkg> the paper says "enable adversaries to infer which
[12:15:46] <dkg> websites a user visits from the traffic patterns
[12:15:47] <dkg> "
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[12:15:56] <dkg> (from the introduction)
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[12:18:14] <Martin Thomson_web_281> 4% at what cost?
[12:18:56] <Lars Eggert_web_221> i guess more padding (more than x MTU) would help?
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[12:19:22] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_255> Dummy injection can be thought of as >MTU padding
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[12:19:52] <Martin Thomson_web_281> I don't understand what padding total size means here, because that would seem to imply dummy packets also
[12:20:19] <Lars Eggert_web_221> +1 ben, and mt, i think they just padded to the first MTU or something?
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[12:24:42] <dkg> looks like the padding defense levels they're offering just cuts f-score in half, no matter what the f-score was.
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[12:25:51] <dkg> it would be interesting to see these results comparing sites with no third-party subresources against sites that have third-party resources.
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[12:27:18] <npd> caching of third-party resources seems like it could be extremely significant in terms of protection from network observer
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[12:28:59] <David Lawrence_web_611> Great research, Sandra.
[12:29:16] <Wes Hardaker_web_176> agreed: very useful, thank you.
[12:29:18] <Martin Thomson_web_281> dkg, I had a similar thought about third-party resources
[12:30:20] <Chris Box_web_594> It's a little odd that in a previous slide a client was fetching content from a tracker, whose aim is of course to track and identify the client.
[12:30:34] <Massimiliano Pala_web_781> could access networks help in any way in this "coordination" between parties view? Can your local network be a party here?
[12:30:38] <npd> or the malware could choose a different destination IP address
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[12:30:57] <Martin Thomson_web_281> the malware would have to use the same traffic profile as a real page load, that's all
[12:31:04] <dkg> npd: caching 3rd party resources also defends against tracking by the 3rd party itself.
[12:31:04] <Martin Thomson_web_281> so same IP, not different
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[12:31:43] <Andrew Campling_web_241> +1 to understanding that network traffic analysis can be a good thing for the user as a defence against malware.
[12:32:25] <dkg> surely the user's endpoint can identify malware with more robustness than any network observer?
[12:32:46] <Martin Thomson_web_281> dkg: presumably the user's endpoint is compromised in this case
[12:33:08] <Martin Thomson_web_281> of course, malware has a very easy job, it only has to be indistinguishable from a credible/plausible page load
[12:33:30] <Martin Thomson_web_281> here, the defender is trying to make diverse content indistinguishable at the network layer
[12:33:54] <David Schinazi_web_896> And malware can afford sending 4x the amount of traffic to defeat traffic analysis
[12:34:07] <David Schinazi_web_896> Is this at the network layer or at the QUIC layer?
[12:34:09] <Martin Thomson_web_281> David: exactly
[12:34:11] <dkg> and it generally has access to the application layer
[12:34:13] <Andrew Campling_web_241> @dkg: also the malware may be client software undertaking surveillance capitalism, communicating home and trying to do so without detection
[12:34:41] <Martin Thomson_web_281> This is really network-layer information, though QUIC doesn't let much information past down to the network layer, aside from the sizing stuff Sandra talked about
[12:34:52] <dkg> size and timing and destination
[12:34:59] <Martin Thomson_web_281> right
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[12:35:28] <npd> even us remote attendees are real people :)
[12:35:34] <David Schinazi_web_896> I understand network-level traffic analysis, but what are network-level defenses? If padding is happening on QUIC packets that needs to be inside the encryption for the MTU padding case
[12:35:38] <dkg> Sandra Siby_web_519: thank you for this work, and bringing it here!
[12:35:41] <David Lawrence_web_611> Time to get back into "eat the mic" habit?
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[12:36:35] <David Lawrence_web_611> Please tell him to get right up on the mic
[12:36:38] <David Oran_web_893> still too quiet - can we increase the gain?
[12:36:40] <Colin Perkins_web_495> still pretty quiet
[12:36:55] <David Schinazi_web_896> He's very close to the mic, @meetecho can you increase gain?
[12:36:55] <Andrew Campling_web_241> Perhaps remove mask when presenting?
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[12:37:28] <Chris Box_web_594> Not allowed in Vienna
[12:37:38] <Robert Carolina_web_126> VERY quiet
[12:37:46] <jhoyla> But he's pointing the mic at the ceiling , not at his mouth
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[12:38:13] <npd> @dkg caching third party resources across origins would be valuable in protecting against trackers, but also the fact that it's cached can be used as a way to track the user, so the trend is to partition network caches
[12:38:54] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> how is the audio now? It seems fine to me
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[12:39:16] <Colin Perkins_web_495> relatively quiet, but usable
[12:39:26] <Martin Thomson_web_281> npd: the partitioning of the cache in browsers is basically done: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1i7KvTtIS2JhAadQsdWLFpMzNmgXmUbXSfPuO_wYX6d8/edit#slide=id.g1135ef95135_0_110
[12:39:30] <Meetecho> Working on it
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[12:41:31] <dkg> "removing the last octet" isn't great for IPv6
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[12:43:37] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_742> Yes, thanks Sandra for this interesting research! (sorry remembered to joint the chat just now)
[12:44:03] <Andrew Campling_web_241> GDPR is another reason why US-centric assumptions about behaviour of participants (eg network operators) do not apply in Europe
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[12:44:58] <Sandra Siby_web_519> hey everyone, thanks for the nice discussion on our quic work! we are indeed planning to look further into webpage resources -- reliance on third party resources + caching, and their impact on these attacks would be one of the those. another thing we've been considering is whether concepts like web bundling (bundling together all resources) would change something for the adversary
[12:45:19] <Dirk Kutscher_web_115> Related work on GDPR and networking: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3460417.3482979
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[12:46:28] <Chris Box_web_594> Lots of countries not yet in that table
[12:46:41] <npd> +1, thank you Sandra
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[12:47:15] <Robert Carolina_web_126> @Chris Box: The numbers get pretty big expressed as %OECD
[12:47:25] <Chris Box_web_594> Good to hear
[12:47:40] <Robert Carolina_web_126> The clear outlier is USA
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[12:47:56] <npd> whoa, who has the ability to pan/zoom the camera in on the speaker? it's very helpful/professional
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[12:50:27] <Massimiliano Pala_web_781> A possible proposal would be a standard way for services to declare their compliance of specific laws.. this could be on a self-asserting basis, but it could be a useful way for users to filter services based on that information.
[12:50:36] <dkg> masque and odoh are hardly ubiquitous today, though
[12:51:21] <Massimiliano Pala_web_781> Extensions for website certificates could contain the list of privacy-compliance OIDs (OIDs to reference laws and frameworks)
[12:51:22] <Robert Carolina_web_126> Very hard to declare "compliance" w GDPR at any given time. It's more like a scalar value than a binary.
[12:51:24] <Mallory Knodel_web_569> I'm not sure I agree with that analysis of what GDPR says about data retention and protocols.
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[12:51:30] <npd> it seems very optimistic that these proxies/oblivious proposals will become universal
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[12:54:37] <Alissa Cooper_web_420> Good candidate for a living/evergreen document
[12:55:11] <Robert Carolina_web_126> Followup on multinational data protection comment: I count at least 32 of 38 OECD members with GDPR-style data protections laws. USA is the biggest outlier.
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[12:55:34] <Jim Reid_web_612> @ Robert, it's much ickier than that. The DPAs in the EU have differing opinions on how GDPR is implemented and enforced nationally.
[12:56:22] <Robert Carolina_web_126> @Jim - understood and agreed. FYI, I'm a lawyer in England - practicing in this field 30 years :-)
[12:56:33] <Luigi Iannone_web_953> @Robert: AFAIK USA did not opt for a federal law, so we have to dig into states law.
[12:56:47] <Jim Reid_web_612> Better you that me Robert. :-)
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[12:57:34] <Luigi Iannone_web_953> @Alissa, what do you mean by evergreen document?
[12:57:41] <Robert Carolina_web_126> @Luigi: there are a patchwork of federal laws that I call "use case" laws - nothing general. A FEW states (California+) have started to adopt general laws that are like data protection, but not nearly as strong as GDPR.
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[12:58:03] <Andrew Campling_web_241> Mic It would be helpful to acknowledge that some censorship is good, eg malware blocking, parental controls
[12:58:04] <Robert Carolina_web_126> +1 Jim  :-)
[12:58:23] <Luigi Iannone_web_953> @Robert: thanks
[12:58:27] <npd> I would also be interested in learning about the IETF process for living documents, if there are links to be shared
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[12:59:12] <Andrew Campling_web_241> Perhaps “censorship” isn’t l
[12:59:22] <Andrew Campling_web_241> always the best term, can be perjpr
[12:59:24] <Andrew Campling_web_241> o
[12:59:33] <Shivan Sahib_web_544> I don't think there is an existing process for living documents
[12:59:45] <Alissa Cooper_web_420> There is no process AFAIK, but it is a topic that has been discussed many times over the years. I can try to dig up whatever the most developed proposal was that I can find.
[12:59:48] <Andrew Campling_web_241> * pejorative
[12:59:51] <Lars Eggert_web_221> @npd: there isn't a process yet - it's a topic that's been under discussion for some years, but afaik here hasn't been a proposal that would capture some of the better-defined used cases
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[13:00:04] <Lars Eggert_web_221> *all of the
[13:00:04] <dkg> thanks, all!
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[13:00:08] <Gurshabad Grover_web_746> Thanks!
[13:00:09] <Massimiliano Pala_web_781> thanks!
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[13:00:30] <dkg> Andrew Campling: i think you're sayng the quiet part out loud :/
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[13:01:38] <npd> I believe the current draft does not take a position that censorship is always bad or unjustified, just documents how actors in a position of power to censor communications have different techniques to do so
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[13:03:15] <npd> thanks chairs and presenters for a succinct and interesting session
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