IETF
pearg
pearg@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, July 26, 2021< ^ >
shivan has set the subject to: PEARG IETF 110 https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-110-pearg
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[18:58:41] <Mallory Knodel_web_219> I might try again
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[19:00:37] <Shivan Sahib_web_318> Notes: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-pearg
[19:00:48] <Joseph Kalfa_web_303> test
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[19:01:09] Shivan Sahib has set the subject to: PEARG IETF 111 https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-pearg
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[19:01:36] <Shivan Sahib_web_318> Hi all!
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[19:01:55] <Joseph Kalfa_web_303> i ahve no audio is that on my end?
[19:02:00] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_607> Yes
[19:02:03] <Chris Lemmons_web_350> Your end, probably.
[19:02:04] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_607> I have audio
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[19:02:22] <Shivan Sahib_web_318> @Joseph Kalfa you were sending audio just now
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[19:02:34] <Joseph Kalfa_web_303> thanks
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[19:03:24] <Chris Lemmons_web_350> We do actually need a "jabber voice". People who can't or aren't comfortable on the mic often use chat to get something said at the mic. I will volunteer to do that. If you want something voiced and can't or don't wish to use the mic yourself, just put "mic:" before your comment and I'll hop in the line to voice it.
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[19:03:56] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_607> I think the idea was that the other chair (i.e. Chris Wood) was going to act as Jabber scribe.
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[19:04:06] <Shivan Sahib_web_318> Thanks Chris for the note! I and Chris were planning on doing that but will appreciate the help
[19:04:07] <Chris Lemmons_web_350> Ah... that's fine then. :)
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[19:04:42] <Chris Lemmons_web_350> (I've seen a few groups skipping the scribe entirely, which I think isn't great.)
[19:04:44] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_607> Sorry, chairs*
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[19:08:15] <sftcd> "consent" - normally i'd quibble immediately if someone wanted to use that term in an RFC, but in this case it's right I guess
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[19:09:25] <Watson Ladd_web_224> does anyone have a link to the draft?
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[19:09:49] <Shivan Sahib_web_318> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-pearg-safe-internet-measurement/
[19:09:51] <andrew_campling> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-pearg-safe-internet-me asurement
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[19:10:07] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_333> Via https://datatracker.ietf.org/rg/pearg/documents/
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[19:10:14] <Watson Ladd_web_224> mallory, your audio dropped so i missed a bit.
[19:10:17] <Watson Ladd_web_224> thanks!
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[19:10:25] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_779> For me the audio was fine
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[19:11:03] <Watson Ladd_web_224> could you fill in what I missed please? just happened again
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[19:11:15] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_833> (I hear dropouts too)
[19:11:20] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> Yeah, audio is pretty flaky.
[19:11:29] <Chris Lemmons_web_350> Yeah, I kept getting dropouts as well, but I think I got most of it.
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[19:12:42] <Mallory Knodel_web_219> mknodel@cdt.org
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[19:13:45] <sftcd> "reconnecting" here
[19:14:05] <Dan Harkins_web_584> every 5th word
[19:14:07] <Joseph Kalfa_web_303> is the audio choppy for everyone?
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[19:14:08] <Joseph Kalfa_web_303> okay
[19:14:08] <Christopher Patton_web_760> seems better
[19:14:09] <Christopher Wood_web_667> Yes.
[19:14:12] <Luigi Iannone_web_107> yes
[19:14:24] <Chris Lemmons_web_350> Great audio fun for session 1. :)
[19:14:30] <sftcd> I can type
[19:14:42] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_779> We didn't do enough work on QoS
[19:14:47] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> This is why we should go back to meeting in person.
[19:15:01] <Joseph Kalfa_web_303> maybe drop video unless it's necessary for presenting?
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[19:15:30] <sftcd> two things on consent 1) be good to include examples of when that was handled well and when badly (or controversially) and 2) I think this document might end up being a model for other IETF docs that mention consent so it should be done carefully
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[19:15:54] <David Oliver_web_667> @sftcd ++
[19:16:32] <sftcd> i can try audio again:-)
[19:16:50] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_779> Examples always work well for people. I hope you have some good examples ...
[19:17:03] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_857> Do you plan to get inspiration from consent appraoch in medical trials ?
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[19:18:04] <sftcd> I got my own audio back 10s later:-)
[19:18:13] <Vittorio Bertola_web_813> Perhaps we need a general discussion of consent-related best practices for all IETF use cases that need it.
[19:18:19] <David Oliver_web_667> One "consent" approach: https://cleaninsights.org
[19:18:33] <andrew_campling> Consent from GDPR: "any freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject’s wishes by which he or she, by a statement or by a clear affirmative action, signifies agreement to the processing of personal data relating to him or her".
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[19:18:38] <sftcd> just in case: if there's an extended discussion of consent it *will* be copied by other authors to meet their own ends so we should be careful to keep that in mind
[19:18:50] <Alissa Cooper_web_564> Doubtful that there is one general consent solution for all IETF use cases.
[19:19:01] <Mallory Knodel_web_219> Good point Alissa
[19:19:28] <sftcd> right, so saying things like what Alissa said may be needed
[19:19:44] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_779> Medical trials are not a good example because most people participating in those studies (for example cancer studies) are doing everything in the hope to improve their stituation.
[19:20:09] <Nigel Hickson_web_560> Good Evening
[19:20:09] <Shivan Sahib_web_318> Slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/slides-111-pearg-website-fingerprinting-in-the-age-of-quic-00
[19:20:10] <sftcd> medics have a much better model of consent that us, that's true
[19:20:56] <Joseph Kalfa_web_303> How many people are actually familiar with medical consent ethics?
[19:20:57] <Watson Ladd_web_224> they have a very different history and kind of harms. Can't just point at their standards and say that's a gold model while ignoring why they are the way they are and how they work in practice.
[19:21:22] <Shivan Sahib_web_318> Paper: https://netsec.ethz.ch/publications/papers/smith2021website.pdf
[19:21:26] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_779> @Joseph: I can ask my wife because she works in this space (space = breast cancer studies)
[19:21:28] <sftcd> Joseph Kalfa_web_303: very few to zero here probably
[19:21:54] <sftcd> @watson: true but ISTM they are absolutely better than our industry
[19:22:11] <andrew_campling> I'd suggest starting with something that relates to data privacy like GDPR or similar when looking for relevant consent models
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[19:24:36] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_857> @Joseph Kalfa I have touched medical consent while volunteering on medical trial data management
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[19:24:44] <sftcd> @andrew: not sure we want to try develop any new model of consent (too many pages) but rather to point at good and less good (or controversial) examples but not sure how easy it is to find the details to point at (they tend to be 1 sentence in a paper)
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[19:26:01] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_857> Medical trials are not a good example because most people participating in those studies (for example cancer studies) are doing everything in the hope to improve their stituation. ==> It depends, the vast majority of trials are phase 1 on people that are not ill, to assess the medicine's effects beyond the disease
[19:26:32] <andrew_campling> @sftcd:  privacy regulators could be useful people to help with examples here
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[19:27:46] <sftcd> mebbe
[19:28:12] <sftcd> I was thinking more of univ. ethics cttes though their rules are probably all over the place once you look at details
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[19:41:17] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_779> @Andrew: We could ask. I could ask the people I know.
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[19:42:29] <Lucas Pardue_web_253> we need more people to adopt QUIC to improve privacy ;)
[19:42:31] <Carrick_web_964> This was so fascinating!
[19:42:36] <Hannes Tschofenig_web_779> Interesting talk
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[19:43:33] <Bob Moskowitz> Lucas, I am assuming that was a joke...
[19:43:48] <andrew_campling> @Hannes: Thanks, it would be interesting to compare responses from regulators in different countries if other people also have contacts
[19:44:45] <Lucas Pardue_web_253> 1. QUIC RFC2. Move every to QUIC3. ????4. better privacy
[19:45:30] <Chris Lemmons_web_350> I think all you need is a "MUST" that requires "better privacy" and you're set. :)
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[19:47:03] <Matthew Finkel_web_566> Thanks
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[19:47:11] <Lucas Pardue_web_253> thanks!
[19:47:20] <Rolf Sonneveld_web_661> thanks!
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[19:48:18] <Bob Moskowitz> Really found this talk informative.  Thanks.
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[19:49:54] <Shivan Sahib_web_318> Slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/slides-111-pearg-shortor-improving-tor-network-latency-through-multi-hop-overlay-routing-00
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[19:51:24] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_833> "Triangle inequality failures"
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[19:52:46] <Luigi Iannone_web_107> Question: since you do not know the whole path this optimisation is on a per-hop basis, right? If yes does it mean a TOR relay has to encap so to steer the packet through the right middle-relay?
[19:52:54] <sftcd> @mallory: there's a likely "good example" :-) and @andrew: if you asked a regulator about this, I'd guess they'd not be able to answer
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[19:54:03] <Luigi Iannone_web_107> OK. thanks
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[19:55:19] <andrew_campling> @Mallory: Some regulators are pretty technical, eg one of the UK ICO team did a critique of an adaptive DNS proposal as it relates to GDPR
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[19:56:58] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_833> This is simulated based on measured latency, right?
[19:57:43] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_833> OK
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[19:59:09] <achernya> Is the circuit-building entirely based on latency? Or is bandwidth also considered? i.e., could a node with really fantastic latency but a ~~10kbps link cause service degradation for clients doing this sort of circuit-building?
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[20:06:04] <Matthew Finkel_web_566> Would the dataset be used by clients or are they used on the relays?
[20:06:27] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> Isn't it bad to avoid visiting the same AS twice?
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[20:06:37] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> As in, doesn't that leak information about the route?
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[20:07:15] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_857> Isn't the use of latency introducing a bias that could allow deanonymization based on a knowledge of the network topology ?
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[20:08:34] <Matthew Finkel_web_566> There is on-going research regarding safely avoiding the same AS (or similar boundaries) when selecting a path.
[20:10:06] <Matthew Finkel_web_566> Kyle, if you can share relay-to-relay connection failures, we'd like to know about that info. Please get in touch if you can: sysrqb@torproject.org
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[20:11:14] <Kyle Hogan> Jonathan Hoyland_web_497 I believe that avoiding the same AS twice is still preferred due to traffic correlation across Tor that an AS on both sides of the network could perform
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[20:12:27] <Kyle Hogan> Matthew Finkel_web_566 this was one of the things that was brought up during our conversations with the tor research safety board so we've been keeping track of it. will get in touch!
[20:12:39] <Matthew Finkel_web_566> Great, thank you!
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[20:14:25] <Richard Barnes_web_431> All Safari including HTTPS?
[20:14:48] <David Schinazi_web_938> @Richard yes
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[20:20:19] <Joseph Kalfa_web_303> How do you plan to make this work with user specified proxies or VPNs. Also how would enterprise users be able to mange this to ensure compliance with corporate policies?
[20:20:30] <Joseph Kalfa_web_303> enterprise entities *
[20:20:38] <Richard Barnes_web_431> i wonder if traffic volumes through these relays would make such correlation difficult in practice
[20:20:52] <Richard Barnes_web_431> @Hoyland ^^^
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[20:21:18] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> Almost certainly, but I'm a theory person :sweat_smile:
[20:21:24] <sftcd> mic (not for now but at the end, and I'm willing to try send audio again:-) there's a lot of moving parts here and probably have to be  - how would you characterise the longer term complexity trade-offs between this approach and trying to eventually move to something simpler and more generic but harder to get deployed like "all over Tor" or an equivalent?
[20:21:47] <Richard Barnes_web_431> @Hoyland good that you haven't been totally sullied by industry :)
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[20:22:33] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> :joy:
[20:22:57] <Matthew Finkel_web_566> Joseph: Some details: https://developer.apple.com/support/prepare-your-network-for-icloud-private-relay/
[20:25:02] <Paul Wouters_web_623> vpns installed or activated ?
[20:25:24] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> When you say everything can use QUIC, does that mean that TLS runs over QUIC, or that one side uses QUIC and the other uses TLS?
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[20:25:54] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> I guess it must be the former, or else the labels wouldn't work.
[20:28:20] <frodek> Are national regulation mandating you to disable this for specific countries?
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[20:28:37] <Patrick Tarpey_web_570> Q>How long does the ingress proxy wait until it retries the egress i.e. failure of the egress?
[20:28:47] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> This is really cool work.
[20:29:02] <Watson Ladd_web_224> choppy, but we can manage
[20:29:17] <Patrick Tarpey_web_570> Audio breaking up...
[20:29:21] <Joseph Kalfa_web_893> So if an ISP blocks the provided dns names for "enterprise" users would the user be notified that the Private Relay is disabled.
[20:29:23] <Richard Barnes_web_431> @sftcd - Tor is not simple :)
[20:29:25] <sftcd> see question above
[20:29:33] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> I can't hear well enough to understand.
[20:30:09] <Rolf Sonneveld_web_661> Do you have gathered any statistics on delays using two proxies?
[20:30:10] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_857> Is there a risk that if Private proxy is used repeatedly by a same client to reach a given service, the set of private relays can be used to deanonymize him?
[20:30:23] <Jari Arkko_web_971> Good stuff, Tommy! I like in particular the approach to put both web and DNS traffic here, and have n>=2 entities and not have to trust a particular proxy. (Now, if we could also get some better privacy in origin server applications ...)
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[20:31:58] <Joseph Kalfa_web_893> I poste din the caht
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[20:32:08] <sftcd> pearg being a research group, I'd be v. interested in considering that longer term question - with the best will in the world there's a danger of going down a dead-end if we try just try assemble things from the parts available today (odoh, masque etc)
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[20:32:34] <Joseph Kalfa_web_893> @tommy if an ISP blocks the provided dns names for "enterprise" users would the user be notified that the Private Relay is disabled.
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[20:33:31] <Patrick Tarpey_web_570> Presumably ingress and egress infrastructure BGP announcements would be validated ...
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[20:33:34] <Tommy Pauly_web_371> @Joseph the ISP would only see names that the Relay server already failed to resolve in the public DNS (and thus are presumably not accessible on most default routes). So the relay gets the first pass, and can hand off to the enterprise / ISP network as a fallback
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[20:33:54] <Joseph Kalfa_web_893> Would a user be notified of that hand off?
[20:34:05] <Tommy Pauly_web_371> Not at the moment, no
[20:34:10] <Joseph Kalfa_web_893> okay.
[20:34:33] <Tommy Pauly_web_371> @sftcd I don't see why MASQUE would be a dead-end just because it's something that's going on in the IETF today already
[20:35:02] <Martin Thomson_web_991> The Vegas Rule
[20:35:07] <sftcd> it's not an accusation - I'm just wondering where (good) ideas like that might lead in the longer term
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[20:35:33] <Martin Thomson_web_991> https://w3ctag.github.io/privacy-principles/#dfn-vegas-rule
[20:36:10] <Watson Ladd_web_224> when should we start lining up in the queue?
[20:36:21] <Joseph Kalfa_web_893> So currently is the user notified either way if they are using the relay? (Similar to TLS positive/negative notification of broken certs)
[20:36:28] <Joseph Kalfa_web_893> @tommy
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[20:36:44] <sftcd> @watson: after you've seen 30s of more ads:-)
[20:37:03] <Tommy Pauly_web_371> @Joseph decorating the browser could be something that would interesting in the future perhaps, but it's also unclear how much users understand and can interpret more icons =)
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[20:37:27] <Joseph Kalfa_web_893> thanks!
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[20:41:26] <sftcd> I assume "Origin Trial" is a local term of art?
[20:41:44] <Eric Rescorla_web_883> origin trial == "we rolled it out to a bunch of people but it's for a limited time"
[20:41:56] <Lucas Pardue_web_253> not to be confused with oregan trail
[20:41:58] <Martin Thomson_web_991> origin trials are only available to a subset of sites
[20:41:59] <Jana Iyengar_web_369> It's a Chrome experiment with Origins that opt into the experiment
[20:42:05] <Shivan Sahib_web_318> https://developer.chrome.com/blog/origin-trials/
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[20:42:20] <Eric Rescorla_web_883> Though it's confusing in this case because the input to the function is *not* limited to those sites
[20:42:23] <Martin Thomson_web_991> Lucas: you mean "you have died of dysentry" ?
[20:42:33] <Chris Lemmons_web_350> Have you considered "greasing" the cohort sometimes return no cohort randomly to ensure that sites are unlikely to put up a "This site is not supported in Incognito Mode or with Ad-Blockers" banner that prevents site access?
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[20:42:45] <Jana Iyengar_web_369> @Eric: good point
[20:42:55] <Lucas Pardue_web_253> no I haven't!
[20:43:37] <Jana Iyengar_web_369> @Lucas: My brain is reading Oregan Trail when I see Origin Trial now
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[20:45:45] <Christopher Patton_web_760> Do clients have a way of validating cohort size?
[20:45:47] <Martin Thomson_web_991> Less fingerprinting surface is not assured: if you provide multiple topics, you can get quite a lot more entropy.
[20:46:13] <Martin Thomson_web_991> cpatton: there is a whole process imagined that uses HH
[20:46:14] <sftcd> I guess I'm naive in wanting none of this to ever be opt-out?
[20:46:23] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_939> (Ad Topic Hints == https://github.com/privacycg/proposals/issues/26)
[20:46:36] <Watson Ladd_web_224> HH?
[20:46:49] <Martin Thomson_web_991> (for others, HH = heavy hitters an MPC protocol for determining minimum count for a given input)
[20:46:53] <andrew_campling> Presumably it has to be opt-in not opt-out?
[20:46:53] <Eric Rescorla_web_883> Just so people understand the situation: Topic hints is something that has been proposed but not *accepted* in Privacy CG
[20:47:05] <Martin Thomson_web_991> Watson: https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/017.pdf
[20:47:41] <Eric Rescorla_web_883> Here is the list of currently accepted proposals: https://privacycg.github.io/charter.html#work-items
[20:48:37] <sftcd> "topic sensitivity" - hard to understand how that could be coarse-grained and not have topics with vastly different interpretations in different geographies
[20:48:38] <Vittorio Bertola_web_813> I'm also naive and I'm still waiting for the day that I'll be able to tell my browser "please tell all websites that I do not want to be profiled or receive targeted advertising" and websites will actually honour that.
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[20:48:59] <Martin Thomson_web_991> andrew: this was all conducted as opt-out experiments, with automatic opt-out based on certain signals
[20:49:05] <sftcd> @vittoria: perfectly doable - you just need 3-4 different browsers ;-(
[20:49:12] <sftcd> @vittorio: perfectly doable - you just need 3-4 different browsers ;-(
[20:49:15] <Martin Thomson_web_991> Vittorio: sadly DNT failed
[20:49:28] <sftcd> DNT was always gonna fail
[20:49:29] <andrew_campling> @Vittorio: +1
[20:50:15] <Vittorio Bertola_web_813> Also sadly, there is a regulation proposal in the European Parliament that would make DNT support compulsory but has been lying there for the last 5+ years :-(
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[20:51:14] <sftcd> mic: (I won't try audio again:-) what's to stop topics being used to censor or imprison people? e.g. an LGBT topic in many countries is ok but in some could get you locked up?
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[20:52:46] <sftcd> not for mic but just a comment "keeping the web open" doesn't sound like a technical answer to me
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[20:53:08] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_939> This whole area is a question of values, rather than technical details.
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[20:53:23] <sftcd> disagree
[20:53:27] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> @sfctd would it be better or worse if some % of the time the API just returned random bitstrings, so you couldn't (immediately) prove that someone fit into a particular flock because their browser said so?
[20:53:59] <Lucas Pardue_web_253> I'm most interested in Horse>Staple>Battery
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[20:54:16] <sftcd> Jonathan Hoyland_web_497: it'd  be better if it were just "off by default" and people had a real (undestandable) choice to opt-in to the bits they wanna send
[20:54:21] <Vittorio Bertola_web_813> Also, if allowing sites to monetize people prevents silos, I don't understand why we've been seeing silos pop up everywhere for the last 15 years.
[20:55:14] <npd> > <@stephen:jell.ie> Jonathan Hoyland_web_497: it'd  be better if it were just "off by default" and people had a real (undestandable) choice to opt-in to the bits they wanna send
even in the opt-in case, would it be helpful to have some fuzzing so that a site doesn't get as high precision a signal?
[20:55:18] <Watson Ladd_web_224> silo meaning what?
[20:55:18] <Vasilis_web_306> Is FLoC enabled by default in Chrome browser?
[20:55:35] <Vittorio Bertola_web_813> @Jonathan: I'm not sure that an authoritarian government would say "ok this person gets marked as LGBT only 85% of the time, so we won't harass them because we're not really sure".
[20:55:48] <Carlos Silva_web_628> @npd are we back into talking about consent?
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[20:55:53] <Matthew Finkel_web_566> Thanks
[20:56:06] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_939> Vasilis: No. It was an origin trial, meaning any site could opt in, but the origin trial is over for now, and things will change before it's enabled again.
[20:56:06] <David Oliver_web_667> @watson: silo means "paywall"?
[20:56:17] <sftcd> @npd: not sure - my assumption is there's zero probability of a real opt-in, so I'm reluctant to spend time on things that assume that
[20:56:47] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_497> @Vittorio of course, but I was thinking about whether you could prevent sites saying "We don't want, for example, LGBT people to use our site."
[20:57:04] <Vittorio Bertola_web_813> That's also a possibility
[20:57:10] <Andres Medina_web_896> I don't think LGBT would be a category that gets used.
[20:57:12] <sftcd> given people's use of memes to satire that answer seems maybe dangerous
[20:57:12] <Watson Ladd_web_224> Yeah, and that's happening because the ads don't pay enough to support top quality newspapers. Subscription fees are not new
[20:57:14] <Martin Thomson_web_991> "women driving cars" is better than anything like that
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[20:58:08] <Carlos Silva_web_628> political choices correlation with FLoC topics will appear soon
[20:58:15] <David Oliver_web_667> @watson concern is that "tail sites" (that most folks don't want to own subscriptions to, due to difficulty, time challenges, etc) can't afford to be siloed
[20:58:28] <David Oliver_web_667> agree @carlos
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[20:58:59] <David Oliver_web_667> impressed by this work from the perspective of "solving problems at the client only"
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[20:59:02] <David Oliver_web_667> thank you Sara!
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[20:59:05] <Joey Salazar_web_136> Thank you all!
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[20:59:31] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_857> Thanks to all the presenters for their insights
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