IETF
pearg
pearg@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, March 12, 2021< ^ >
shivan has set the subject to: PEARG IP Address Privacy Interim https://codimd.ietf.org/pearg-interim-jan-2021
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[14:22:39] shivan has set the subject to: PEARG IETF 110 https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-110-pearg
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[14:29:51] <Thomas Duffy_web_737> 1212
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[14:30:30] <Watson Ladd_web_196> I'll volunteer
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[14:33:32] <Natalie Ennis_web_167> can you get closer to the mic please?
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[14:35:06] <Shivan Sahib_web_920> yes! was trying not to wake up the rest of the household...
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[14:37:52] <sftcd-pidgin> so that's a signed not-evil bit?
[14:38:36] <Vittorio Bertola_web_435> Audit are not a very good method to certify that people are not being evil, unless there is something clearly preventing them from changing behaviour one second after the audit is completed.
[14:39:36] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_783> Or just being such a big customer for the auditor that the auditor will sign off anything.
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[14:40:33] <Eric Orth_web_411> Or a small enough customer that the auditor doesn't do more than a cursory check and easily misses things intentionally hidden.
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[14:44:57] <sftcd> "complete solution"? is that marketing speak?
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[14:47:19] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_783> But it does leak your "near to" location.
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[14:48:10] <Shivan Sahib_web_920> We have 10 mins for open discussion about the IP address interim, so we'll be cutting the queue now
[14:48:19] <Andrew Campling_web_590> Will it be sufficient for CDN routing?
[14:49:46] <Alex Chernyakhovsky_web_185> Depends on how the CDN routing works. If the CDN is somehow able to take advantage of a more-specific prefix than what would be offered through a near-path nat then CDN routing would become less effective.
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[14:51:06] <sftcd> not a question, just a comment: I find it hard to know how to interpret proposals like this given the higher level tracking etc being done by those making this proposal
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[14:51:17] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_783> @Paul Jensen how does this compare to Oblivious HTTP?
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[14:51:36] <Francois Ortolan_web_847> +1 sftcd
[14:52:06] <Simon Leinen_web_786> "SASE" (sorry buzzword alert) is a sort of inverse CDN... that would be another natural place to run such anonymization functions.
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[14:52:44] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_624> If the IPPS operator has an interest in monetizing user data, is it relevant to make the IPPS a identity reveal weak point ?
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[14:58:14] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_624> The privacy / accountability balance has been studied in academia, for instance in https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/2740070.2626306
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[15:00:43] <Bradford Lassey_web_413> +1 to Stephen's point
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[15:01:25] <Lucas Pardue_web_359> is no-one sharing video? the pearg takes privacy seriously!
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[15:01:55] <Bradford Lassey_web_413> I shared my beautiful mug while speaking
[15:02:19] <Shivan Sahib_web_920> :) speakers please feel free to share video!
[15:02:29] <Lucas Pardue_web_359> you set the bar too high Brad
[15:02:32] <Watson Ladd_web_196> especially with dogs
[15:02:48] <Lucas Pardue_web_359> +1 watson
[15:03:23] <sftcd> sorry to get in queue again forgot to ask something...
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[15:04:49] <Watson Ladd_web_196> One huge difference is there is no interaction
[15:05:20] <Watson Ladd_web_196> it's easy to go send someone back on the web to extract more information. can't do that with email
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[15:05:38] <Watson Ladd_web_196> @sftcd: how do you spell that group?
[15:05:44] <Vittorio Bertola_web_435> M3AAWG
[15:06:15] <Watson Ladd_web_196> thank you Vittorio
[15:06:31] <Matthew Finkel_web_621> Thanks Sara, that's a good idea
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[15:09:12] <Andrew Campling_web_590> @Joey a good point about the comparison with MAC address randomisation
[15:09:19] <Joey Salazar_web_889> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-henry-madinas-framework
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[15:15:44] <Watson Ladd_web_196> You could modify your client to do this with some extra encrypting
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[15:15:57] <Kyle Hogan> only if you wanted to change path selection
[15:16:37] <Kyle Hogan> these "vias" are potentially much shorter lived routing decisions than a circuit and can be changes without tearing down and rebuilding the circuit
[15:17:22] <Watson Ladd_web_196> Oh so this is pretty invasive
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[15:17:36] <Kyle Hogan> yes definitely.
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[15:17:52] <mnot> Great slide!
[15:18:06] <Watson Ladd_web_196> But with big speedups the noninvasive one could really work!
[15:18:16] <Kyle Hogan> it can be incrementally deployed though so utility does not depend on the majority of tor updating
[15:18:30] <Russ White_web_772> this conceptually like fibbing ... not good or bad, just an observation :-)
[15:19:06] <Russ White_web_772> but fibbing seems like a good proof point that kind of idea does work/is effective
[15:19:28] <Kyle Hogan> Watson Ladd_web_196 the challenge with doing this using modified path selection and longer circuits is that choosing circuits based on latency observed at the client inherently leaks information about the client's location
[15:20:06] <Kyle Hogan> we'd like to ensure that all relays selected are chosen *independently* of client identity
[15:20:23] <Watson Ladd_web_196> and having a central latency calculator for the middle hops is a pain operationally
[15:20:43] <Watson Ladd_web_196> i was thinking you start with A, B, C as today, insert D and E based on latency
[15:20:58] <David Oliver_web_491> Streisand effect?  Won't mass change in route induce poor performance in new route?
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[15:22:09] <Kyle Hogan> David Oliver_web_491 these decisions are done on demand in the sense that relays can choose a new path in a very similar method to CDNs where they can conduct a data race to see which path is currently fastest.
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[15:22:20] <Kyle Hogan> and stop using it if that ceases to be the case
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[15:22:42] <David Oliver_web_491> @kyle thanks
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[15:23:42] <Watson Ladd_web_196> @kyle: sorry for mangling your name at the mike
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[15:24:22] <Kyle Hogan> Russ White_web_772 yes it does seem conceptually similar to fibbing! I think we escape performance hits by using real tor relays as our hops
[15:25:33] <Watson Ladd_web_196> @Russ what is fibbing?
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[15:25:43] <David Oliver_web_491> well done, folks
[15:25:55] <Kyle Hogan> fibbing: http://fibbing.net/
[15:26:05] <Russ White_web_772> thanks @Kyle -- I was looking for that
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[15:27:25] <Kyle Hogan> we're really interested to hear feedback! both in terms of any weird security hiccups that people might think of as well as on the design itself.
[15:28:50] <Joey Salazar_web_423> https://github.com/IRTF-PEARG/rfc-censorship-tech/issues
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[15:30:43] <Colin Perkins_web_316> Is the idea to publish a snapshot?
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[15:31:13] <Colin Perkins_web_316> Thanks!
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[15:31:19] <Joey Salazar_web_423> thank you all!
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