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[10:49:48] <sftcd> @shivan - are you gonna be running the slides or?
[10:50:19] <sd139@jabber.uk> Yes - plan is for the chairs to drive the slides today
[10:50:28] <sftcd> grand so
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[10:51:22] <sd139@jabber.uk> @meetecho - the room is still showing as closed - when can we get in (one of the chairs asking!?)
[10:51:48] <Meetecho> The rooms open 5 minutes before the scheduled time, for everyone
[10:51:56] <sd139@jabber.uk> Thanks
[10:53:03] <ssahib> @meetecho - this link seems to indicate sessions will be opened 15 mins before https://www7.ietf.org/how/meetings/108/session-chair-guide/
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[11:01:41] <piers> Audio stream (http://icecast-ietf.conf.meetecho.com:8000/room2.mp3) seems to be dead?
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[11:02:02] <Shivan Sahib> @meetecho?
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[11:04:09] <Shivan Sahib> The audio stream is at http://mp3.conf.meetecho.com/ietf/ietf1082.m3u
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[11:05:17] <piers> Yeah and that then sends you to the dead (404) link
[11:05:38] <David Lawrence> Good morning/afternoon/evening, everyone!
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[11:06:36] <alex-Meetecho> looking into the mp3 issue, thanks for noticing
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[11:07:54] <piers> Sure - Whilst you're looking - the audio for room1 is very broken up (not my link as room3 works fine) http://icecast-ietf.conf.meetecho.com:8000/room1.mp3
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[11:08:29] <Shivan Sahib> Thanks @alex-Meetecho!
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[11:14:19] <Hernâni Marques> In Switzerland it's in the law that effectiveness shall be measured; however, I don't see they doing it, indeed.
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[11:14:41] <Hernâni Marques> It's even stated there that the Proximity Tracing systedm shall be stopped if it proves ineffective.
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[11:16:40] <Shivan Sahib> slides for this session are here btw: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-pearg-tact-presentation-01
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[11:17:42] <Shivan Sahib> @hernani, a lot of principles put forth for contact tracing/exposure notification apps also emphasize measureability https://www.aclu.org/report/aclu-white-paper-principles-technology-assisted-contact-tracing
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[11:24:24] <Jeffrey Yasskin> @Stephen, did you manage to file a bug with Play Services about the privacy problems here?
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[11:25:01] <Shivan Sahib> @Jeffrey, want me to convey that q at the mic?
[11:25:18] <Jeffrey Yasskin> I can.
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[11:27:33] <Joey> thanks! just wondering how we can support Stephen's work on this : )
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[11:27:59] <sftcd> @joey: support Doug - he did the clever stuff:-)
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[11:41:08] <joehall> probably just me but I lost audio
[11:41:17] <Benjamin Schwartz> Working for me
[11:41:21] <teirdes> yup i still have audio
[11:41:28] <Meetecho> joehall: you can reload the audo stream withthe icon in the lower right corner
[11:41:40] <Meetecho> (circular arrows)
[11:41:42] <Christopher Wood> @Steven, is Google's KT system a candidate for the registry?
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[11:42:39] <Christopher Wood> (I can't share audio, but would appreciate someone forwarding the question above^)
[11:42:59] <Shivan Sahib> on it
[11:43:02] <Christopher Wood> Thanks :)
[11:44:16] <Shivan Sahib> @Steven, are there implementations of either issuer or redeemer specs apart from Google's?
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[11:45:23] <Shivan Sahib> Nate's slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-pearg-deanonymizing-traffic-slides-00
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[11:48:25] <Steven Valdez> We're still in the early stages, though there have been a number of interested parties for both issuance and redemption, while there's specs for implementing both (https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api, https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/blob/master/ISSUER_PROTOCOL.md) its still a bit of a hurdle to actually implement. Once we've finished initial experiments to verify the end-to-end flow we're hoping to provide some libraries to help implement the protocol without needing people to implement their own ZKP/DLEQOR proofs from scratch.
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[11:49:24] <Shivan Sahib> cool thanks!
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[12:01:18] <Shivan Sahib> Amelia's slides https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-pearg-rrm-for-rtt-slides-01
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[12:01:39] <Christopher Wood> @Nate: can (should?) transport protocols produce adversarial patches that hinder classifiers, or do you envision that being an application-layer functionality?
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[12:02:30] <Mallory Knodel> @Nate: I was going to ask the same thing, namely what web sites/servers might contribute to this problem.
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[12:04:30] <Nate Mathews> Since many defenses (our defense included), assume traffic in the form of packets, the defense is best suited to work on lower layers (although, Tor cells may work for molding on the application layer with some more work).
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[12:05:54] <Christopher Wood> +1
[12:05:56] <Christopher Wood> Thanks!
[12:07:55] <joehall> “activating”? Sounds like Amelia is saying this is the basic richness needed to do RRM?
[12:08:09] <joehall> e.g., not effective protection until this is met
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[12:08:23] <sftcd> well, while applying patches @ transport layer seems right, surely there needs to be application layer (or even web-site) input as well? e.g. if one web server has two virtual hosts, one v. busy and video-full and other a nice 1990's text thing, it seems hard to disguise that if only acting at transport layer
[12:09:05] <joehall> just make everything look like the 90’s text thing ::)
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[12:09:42] <Shivan Sahib> link to the spinbit simulation code: https://github.com/ShivanKaul/draft-andersdotter-rrm-for-rrt/tree/master/spinbit_simulation
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[12:09:51] <Nate Mathews> Yes, so that's a difficult issue in WF. In general it is very difficult to disguise traffic in a way that a video steam would look like a short text stream of content
[12:09:53] <Shivan Sahib> (be warned: hacky)
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[12:10:58] <Nate Mathews> we usually instead hope to make video streams indiscernable from one another rather than from other types of traffic because the overhead to do so would be too enormous
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[12:11:27] <Christopher Wood> Agreed. Treating everything the same seems infeasible.
[12:11:47] <Christopher Wood> @Shivan 404 on your repo
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[12:11:58] <sftcd> @nate: sure, my point was more that there're different places where different entities have relevant inputs, e.g. transport layer, web server (config, history), web-site (config,history) and while applying patches is likely better @ transport layer those other inputs seem needed too
[12:12:14] <Christopher Wood> ^ +!
[12:12:19] <Christopher Wood> +1
[12:12:21] <Shivan Sahib> oops, try again!
[12:12:39] <Jeffrey Yasskin> It would be neat to investigate how JS/HTML build tools could make things less distinguishable.
[12:13:08] <Christopher Wood> Has the QUIC WG been consulted on this work?
[12:13:33] <teirdes> sent some e-mails to quic wg contributors last year in may or june
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[12:13:49] <Christopher Wood> Did anything come of those messages?
[12:13:49] <Shivan Sahib> @Chris and we talked to individual members of the QUIC WG last year
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[12:14:43] <teirdes> not really - spin bit was a quite contentious discussion i think in quic, so the appetite for introducing something that doesn't really address the concerns while also requiring lots of additional specification work was perhaps not great.
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[12:15:04] <Christopher Wood> Makes sense.
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[12:15:29] <Matthias Hudobnik> are there also the slides of the privacy pass available somewhere?
[12:15:36] <teirdes> also had some conversation with constrained environments folks who were puzzled by introducing a fuzzying mechanism for protocol parameters - normally, if it's ok to "lie" about the value of a parameter, a better privacy protection mechanism would simply be data minimization (RFC6973 Sec 7.1)
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[12:15:49] <Shivan Sahib> @Matthias https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-pearg-trust-token-presentation-00
[12:15:58] <Matthias Hudobnik> thx ;-)
[12:16:18] <teirdes> so RRM could add user control (RFC6973 7.2) while a more natural solution is data minimization (RFC6973 7.1), is sort of my current take-away, although i'm willing to discuss
[12:18:03] <Shivan Sahib> slides for censorship update with those great issue links https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-pearg-censorship-draft-update-pearg-ietf-108-00
[12:18:38] <sftcd> question not for mic: will it take another 6 years? ;-)
[12:19:00] <Peter Koch> so, is the 'censorship' draft a new playing field to establish (or not) DNS as a content control plane, i.e., more of a policy issue?
[12:19:16] <Shivan Sahib> @Peter is that a q for the mic?
[12:19:34] <Shivan Sahib> (please preface your questions for the mic with 'mic:'!)
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[12:19:49] <Peter Koch> "not necessarily" ;-)
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[12:20:22] <Vittorio Bertola> Perhaps (this being a survey of the status quo) we should just document the disagreement on the definition of "censorship"
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[12:21:19] <Christopher Wood> @Joe: I don't feel strongly. T'was merely a suggestion.
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[12:22:25] <teirdes> i thought the e-mailing list was the only /authoritative/ place to have discussions
[12:22:26] <Christopher Wood> @Amelia: I fail to see how a *less* specific title is less ambiguous... but perhaps I'm missing something.
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[12:22:49] <Peter Koch> thanks, Joe!
[12:22:51] <rgmhtt> Agree.  Do not add 'network' into the description? of type of censorship.  Too much confusion added.
[12:22:59] <teirdes> so the github issues are really just to be helpful in, something lie, categorizing comments or making them discrete or giving something to systematize
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[12:23:45] <joehall> yes! and thank you so much, Amelia, for curating them. I and the draft owe you endlessly
[12:24:09] <Shivan Sahib> slides for Sandeep's update on pitfol https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-pearg-pitfol-presentation-00
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[12:24:54] <teirdes> @Christopher Yeah... So with "network techniques" you /may/might/ risk ending up in the issue of "should the draft be restricted to layer 3 tech?" or perhaps "is DNS actually part of the network" or perhaps "any group of individuals is a social network". Again, it also is not guaranteed that such discussions would happen but I sort of perceived somewhere on the e-mailing list that the rabbit hole was already being excavated.
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[12:25:55] <sftcd> for the censorship draft, my attitude is that it's an awareness-raising effort and therefore does not need the level of precision that some people appear to want
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[12:26:25] <sftcd> I forget if the text says that, but if not, could be worth adding?
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[12:29:02] <Christopher Wood> @terides: you can ask these same questions (and more!) without any mention of the network.
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[12:30:02] <Christopher Wood> @sftcd: that would be good, yeah, and that would probably alleviate some pressure.
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[12:30:38] <teirdes> @Christopher yeah, i'm not religious about anything. just trying to explain why i personally perceive some routes forward as less or more stressful
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[12:31:22] <Christopher Wood> Yep, makes sense!
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[12:31:28] <teirdes> mic: perhaps a silly question, but why example from RFC3164 given that this RFC was obsoleted by RFC5424?
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[12:32:57] <teirdes> in the draft i mean. i've wondered since last year but never asked.
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[12:35:08] <Shivan Sahib> Gurshabad's slides https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-pearg-safe-measurement-guidelines-draft-update-00
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[12:36:37] <Shivan Sahib> draft https://github.com/IRTF-PEARG/draft-safe-internet-measurement
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[12:37:03] <joehall> thanks for the work!
[12:37:22] <Iain Learmonth> I think that covers the open issues, looking forward to working on the next update and any feedback or reviews would be great
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[12:37:43] <Joey> thank you all!
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[12:37:50] <Corinne Cath> all hail the gods of meetecho (and the chairs) ;-)
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[12:37:57] <Matthias Hudobnik> thx bye!
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