IETF
pce
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Friday, November 12, 2021< ^ >
Dhruv~~Dhody has set the subject to: IETF-112
Room Configuration
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[15:47:28] <Lorenzo Miniero_web_252> Dhruv, Julien: I just imported the slide decks I see from the agenda for today
[15:47:50] <Lorenzo Miniero_web_252> 3.1 to 3.4, 4.1, 5.1 and 5.2
[15:47:52] <Julien Meuric_web_283> Thank you Lorenzo.
[15:47:57] <Lorenzo Miniero_web_252> Not sure if others are needed
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[15:48:24] <Julien Meuric_web_283> TJust the 1st deck fro session 1 for the intro.
[15:48:31] <Dhruv Dhody_web_178> I have consolidated slide, let me process that
[15:49:22] <Lorenzo Miniero_web_252> Dhruv: ack! sorry, I saw that but wasn't sure if it was from the previous session
[15:49:44] <Dhruv Dhody_web_178> No problem
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[15:52:46] <dhruv~~dhody> @Hari - we are good with the minutes?
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[15:57:01] <Hariharan Ananthakrishnan_web_174> yes, we are good
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[15:57:20] <Julien Meuric_web_283> :thumbsup:
[15:57:21] <dhruv~~dhody> Thanks Hari! We can always count on you! Please help Hari with collaborative minutes -> https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-112-pce?both
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[16:12:27] <John Scudder_web_836> Regarding Andrew's point about pedantic implementations, my assumption is gratuitous misordering wouldn't be introduced for existing implemented features -- so for practical purposes this proposal would (or really, might) allow misordering for future features. Presumably a pedantically strict legacy implementation would need to be updated to add support for the new feature anyway at which point the pedantic aspect would be fixed.
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[16:14:16] <John Scudder_web_836> Partial orders are easy, total orders are hard. :-)
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[16:15:24] <John Scudder_web_836> is the audio very difficult for others?
[16:15:32] <dhruv~~dhody> Yes, choppy!
[16:15:45] <Boris Khasanov_web_969> @John, yes, same
[16:15:50] <John Scudder_web_836> :-(
[16:16:18] <Andrew Stone_web_483> Yes, that would be true in theory, and that would be my hope, but there's no guarantee of that occurring. That's also where I struggle with the idea of somehow making this backwards compatible, but to do so essentially defeats the purpose of this proposal, and as a consequence we end up with a non-backward breaking change of an RFC. Naturally RFCs are not written in stone, but that backward breaking to implementations that did follow the strict wording is a concern :)
[16:17:15] <Andrew Stone_web_483> with that said, i do acknowledge the challenges with the rbnf descriptions and future extensions and how the ordering makes that more to deal with
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[16:17:25] <Andrew Stone_web_483> *that more difficult to deal with
[16:17:39] <John Scudder_web_836> OK, understood. I guess it will come down to (a) how much breaking can be hedged against (e.g. the capability suggestion that was raised) and (b) where the WG consensus falls on the theory/practice spectrum.
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[16:20:18] <Gyan Mishra_web_136> I agree on the goals of object ordering however backwards compatibility is critical for existing deployments. Definitely a difficult trade off and challenging.
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[16:21:57] <Tarek Saad_web_633> The NRP is that TEAS agreed to call the underlay resources used for realizing slices - so it is the correct term
[16:22:27] <Tarek Saad_web_633> We will work on aligning the topology filters in the YANG model and PCEP
[16:23:31] <John Scudder_web_836> One way other WGs have used to square the circle of in-theory breaking changes is to conduct an implementation survey. It was asserted at the mic that implementations are already tolerant of out-of-order elements; if a survey confirmed that it might give the WG more comfort in proceeding. Of course it's impossible to guarantee that a noncompliant implementation might exist in the wild, even given a survey.
[16:24:13] <John Scudder_web_836> (I'm not saying this is required, it's just an example of a way other WGs have handled such a case.)
[16:25:32] <Zhenbin Li_web_904> @quan xiong Why is the one draft divided four drafts?
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[16:36:41] <Vishnu Beeram_web_193> We can revisit the discussion regarding Network Resource Partition on the teas list and see if any formal guidance is needed..
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[16:44:08] <Boris Khasanov_web_969> On high level view PCEP could be better message bus for LSDB than BGP....
[16:45:07] <Tarek Saad_web_444> Ideally, we should not have to standardize a protocol extensions for the same thing just for giving it a different name
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[16:47:24] <Aijun Wang_web_124> PCEP-LS can utilize the already existing TLV that defined in BGP-LS
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[16:54:46] <Tony Przygienda_web_513> so that's to be shaken during interim but don't forget taht BIER is L2.5 multicast replication that can accomodate any multicast "overlay" architecturally so we need kind of agreement whether this would be "IP multicast overlay" specific BIER-PCE support or PCE wants somethig more generic here.
[16:55:08] <Aijun Wang_web_124> Dhruv, can we extend the meeting for a short time to let the final presentation finished
[16:56:26] <Aijun Wang_web_124> @Tony, currently we are focusing on the BIER
[16:56:26] <dhruvdhody> we can still finish on time :)
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[16:57:21] <Tony Przygienda_web_513> but generally, it's excellent we have effort to program BIER per PCE (or controller). We (I) were fighting during architecture document work to make sure that we don't end up stuck in IP-multicast-only-overlay (originally it was just MVPN BTW) and in IGP-underlay case.
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[16:57:33] <Vishnu Beeram_web_193> @Dhruv -- I can present draft-rajagopalan in 2 mins (if Balaji can't make it)
[16:57:41] <dhruvdhody> thanks Pavan!
[16:58:26] <Tony Przygienda_web_513> @Aijun, understood, yes, BIER has overlay (that's IP multicast here) and BIER layer (which you want to PCE program) but PCE has an architecture as well in terms of multicast overlay so we have to make sure that PCE is ok with this appraoch. And we need to sync up all the other documents about BIER flying here (I didn't read up yet)
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[17:01:57] <Cheng Li_web_630> bye
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[17:02:04] <Boris Khasanov_web_969> Bye!
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[17:02:16] <dhruvdhody> Thanks Hari!
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[17:02:27] <Jie Dong_web_611> thanks, bye
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