IETF
panrg
panrg@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, March 24, 2022< ^ >
alexamirante has set the subject to: IETF 112
Room Configuration
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[11:54:54] <Meetecho> Please do NOT touch the laptop on the desk chair
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[11:58:52] cabo has set the subject to: https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-113-panrg
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[12:03:31] <cabo> I have started
[12:03:36] <cabo> Could use help
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[12:05:54] <Meetecho> Is someone touching the mic line camera? We see it moving
[12:06:08] <Theresa Enghardt_web_922> No, nobody is there
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[12:06:23] <Meetecho> Thanks Theresa! We'll come check what's wrong later then
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[12:11:35] <cabo> I can't take notes alone — any both want to join in at https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-113-panrg?edit
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[12:12:02] <cabo> anybody
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[12:12:53] <cabo> Thanks
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[12:14:36] <Brian Trammell_web_735> will jump in
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[12:17:03] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> Already reviewed the doc several times
[12:17:11] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> I think it is ready for WGLC
[12:17:43] <Theresa Enghardt_web_922> Thanks Med, and thank you for your great comments!
[12:17:49] <Theresa Enghardt_web_922> I will abstain :)
[12:18:06] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> ;-)
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[12:20:08] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> I'm not sure to get the comment
[12:20:34] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> This is a generic abstract of a specific network permiter
[12:20:49] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> an area can be an example of a domain for IGPs
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[12:27:56] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> Is this another way to do LOOPS?
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[12:37:20] <Stuart Card_web_674> +1 to this sidecar idea
[12:37:24] <cabo> This is *Interesting* stuff.
[12:37:34] <Stuart Card_web_674> I am a long time PEP user/developer.
[12:37:37] <cabo> (And I'm already thinking how to put LOOPs in here :-)
[12:38:00] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> it is akready some sort if LOOPS, Cartsne ;-)
[12:38:29] <Stuart Card_web_674> ESP is essential but precludes what I have always done.
[12:38:29] <Brian Trammell_web_735> it's like LOOPS + PLUS
[12:39:22] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> It isn't PLUS as the initial signal not touched. No?
[12:39:38] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> this is more OOB
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[12:40:47] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> Anyway, this is interesting and it is worth zooming into more details
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[12:42:35] <Jake Holland_web_579> seems like it to me.  there is some new information leakage, but I think it's only stuff the threat model assumes attackers have full knowledge of anyway.
[12:42:58] <Brian Trammell_web_735> yep
[12:43:01] <Jake Holland_web_579> yes, +1 to interesting.  i'm a little concerned about viability, but interesting for sure.
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[12:43:50] <Michael Welzl_web_601> @cabo, Mohamed - when Keith and I first described this to each other in emails, we did indeed have LOOPS as a use case!  :-D   but I dropped it later because LOOPS had a "don't touch" model, where the app isn't involved... would it be better to involve the app?
[12:44:32] <Jake Holland_web_579> in particular, connecting to the sender from the proxy to make an oob connection to the source without a domain name for authentication is a little tricky i think.
[12:44:55] <cabo> It would no longer be exactly LOOPS, but it is a good way to address the problem more long-term
[12:44:56] <Jake Holland_web_579> but there might be an answer
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[12:45:44] <Brian Trammell_web_735> PLUS was trying very very hard to be in-band, to keep the control surface as close as possible to TCP. in doing so it made something like this harder to do.
[12:45:55] <Jake Holland_web_579> there's also a similarly tricky but completely different problem for the receiver to talk to the proxy.  also craziness like multiple proxies, but maybe we just ignore that.
[12:46:22] <Michael Welzl_web_601> That's the thing, there are quite many things to solve here...  but I haven't yet run into any aspect of this that seems like a blocking (unsolvable) problem
[12:46:23] <Brian Trammell_web_735> would be nice to know how many of the deployed paths with PEPs have more than one proxy
[12:46:28] <Jake Holland_web_579> (meaning multiple different proxy hops in the same path, not multipath with proxies on each)
[12:47:02] <cabo> Sat proxy + WiFi proxy?
[12:47:38] <cabo> (Of course, I'm thinking about in-train applications as well.)
[12:48:13] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_312> wouldn't a subsequent PEP talk best to a prior PEP?
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[12:48:38] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_312> instead of the source
[12:48:51] <Jake Holland_web_579> probably, but that's one of the tricky parts.  does the downstream pep change the source ip?  does that even work with multipath?
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[12:49:02] <cabo> Yes — what would be the source address of SC-onward communication
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[12:49:35] <Jake Holland_web_579> it's a lot less out-of-band, that's for sure.
[12:49:46] <Michael Welzl_web_601> I think we should keep multiple ACKing PEPs on a path out of this ... maybe forever  :)   it makes things infinitely more complex, e.g. when considering a multipath transport, or even path changes in a single path transport....
[12:49:55] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_312> well, as long it is mostly advisory, and the core protocol can safely ignore the SC  (doing away any perf improvements but also not importing safety concerns)
[12:50:14] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_312> I guess the problem space can be cut to manageable chunks
[12:50:17] <cabo> That's the point for me!
[12:50:32] <Mohamed Boucadair_web_183> Exactly
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[12:58:38] <Anna Brunstrom_web_489> Interesting talks, thanks!
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