[04:07:37] --- marc0s has joined [04:08:15] --- marc0s has left [05:42:36] --- Dan York has joined [05:50:32] --- victor.pascual.avila has joined [05:50:39] morning [05:54:34] --- Mariano O'Kon has joined [05:54:58] --- Mariano O'Kon has left [05:56:44] --- Jabber MomentIM has joined [05:59:45] Good morning! [06:01:03] --- jiangxingfeng has joined [06:01:14] --- Ted has joined [06:01:56] --- ma-kun has joined [06:02:38] --- Jabber MomentIM has left [06:02:46] --- bortzmeyer has joined [06:02:49] --- lj324o230ar has joined [06:03:22] --- baumgart has joined [06:03:41] --- Mariano O'Kon has joined [06:04:11] --- Mariano O'Kon has left [06:04:13] --- richard.barnes has joined [06:04:23] Slides at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/71/materials.html [06:04:27] good morning, mr. dan! [06:04:37] Chairs looking for notetakers [06:04:47] morning! [06:04:52] Do we have remote participants? [06:05:15] --- Jabber MomentIM has joined [06:05:17] listening in via jabber - not sure if audio streaming is sworking [06:05:43] --- Jabber MomentIM has left [06:05:46] Ingmar Baumgart (P2PNS) participating from Karlsruhe, Germany [06:05:59] Audio should be at http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/ietf714.m3u [06:06:31] Does that work? [06:06:44] Nope, audio doesn't work... [06:06:48] --- suzukisn has joined [06:06:50] no here either [06:07:13] the audio streaming page does not show p2p sip in this timeslot either [06:07:50] http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/ [06:07:52] --- alfredh has joined [06:07:55] --- miquel.oliver has joined [06:07:56] Yes... I'm pinging Joel right now [06:08:21] thx [06:08:26] --- isudo has joined [06:08:33] --- shep has joined [06:08:55] Bruce's presentation on Reload [06:09:02] --- richard.barnes has left [06:10:21] --- antonio has joined [06:10:24] --- ttfr has joined [06:10:34] --- xiaohunhun has joined [06:10:42] hi all [06:10:57] --- richard.barnes has joined [06:11:20] --- ysuzuki has joined [06:12:03] --- softgearko has joined [06:12:04] Slides at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/p2psip-0.ppt [06:12:32] Slide 5 [06:13:05] --- mariano.okon has joined [06:14:03] Slide 6 [06:14:39] --- Dean Willis has joined [06:20:45] We're up to slide 10 [06:21:13] Remote folks... we have a wee small issue with the audio. [06:21:46] Because the audio team didn't have P2PSIP on their schedule, they had this room as "empty" and yanked the recorder out of it. [06:21:52] So we have no way to get audio out. [06:21:53] However [06:21:59] I have a workaround we can try [06:22:10] since Comcast has all this tons of bandwidth [06:22:25] I'm streaming from my MacBookPro at http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ietf-71---march-10-14---philadelphia-pa [06:22:46] thank you! [06:22:52] working fine [06:23:39] Wait... Joel just pinged me... [06:23:49] ietf audio stream is working too... [06:23:51] he apparently snuck in here and put the audio recorder back in. [06:24:01] so we're back to having audio. [06:24:41] --- richard.barnes has left [06:25:24] I'll leave the video up [06:25:56] thanks Dan York :) [06:26:02] until my laptop gets too hot (Using either UStream or Yahoo!Live seems to jack both my CPUs to 100% and heat up my MacBook) [06:26:02] --- richard.barnes has joined [06:26:22] Unfortunately my webcam is fixed to face me so you get to mostly just see me. [06:26:35] --- john.zhao has joined [06:26:46] Phillip Matthews and Henning both at mic [06:27:34] (I should have sat in the front at one of the tables.) [06:27:37] EKR [06:28:13] --- richard.barnes has left [06:28:41] If anyone is watching the video, I am *NOT* monitoring the chat *there* on UStream so please chat here. [06:29:45] --- richard.barnes has joined [06:29:46] JR at mic - why are we talking about bit fields [06:30:32] BTW, we're up to slide 12, Routing. [06:32:28] Slide 13 [06:32:38] Slide 14 [06:32:54] Slide 15 [06:34:37] Alan Johnston [06:35:22] does that actually say TCP over UDP ?? [06:35:45] yes [06:35:53] what's the point of that? [06:35:59] NAT traversal somehow? [06:36:02] yep [06:36:07] [06:36:16] the psychoses that NAT forces us into [06:37:27] scribe, could you ask something for me? [06:37:31] yes [06:37:56] " are p2pp authors, specialy Henning, happy with the merged protocol? We would like to hear their opinions " [06:39:44] Spencer at mic [06:40:53] Phillip Matthews at mic [06:40:56] --- doghome2405 has joined [06:43:30] Asked [06:43:38] Henning at mic [06:43:40] --- sakuma.macx has joined [06:43:41] thanks Dan York, just listened and watched ;) [06:43:53] --- richard.barnes has left [06:44:07] --- richard.barnes has joined [06:44:32] at mic [06:44:34] --- doghome2405 has left [06:44:51] Henning moved back to mic [06:45:57] Dan at mic [06:47:06] Alan Johnston at mic [06:48:39] Perhaps for another event I'll get one of these: http://www.ecamm.com/mac/huckleberry/ so that I can point my MacBook toward something so that you don't have to see me all the time. (Or get an external camera.) [06:49:13] no we like you face [06:49:22] :-) [06:50:10] please guys, do not make advances :-) [06:51:28] Phillip Matthews at mic [06:52:25] --- spencerdawkins has joined [06:52:54] did we just say that we should be sending responses back directly AND hop-by-hop? [06:52:58] wow [06:54:07] yes, I think we did [06:55:22] spencer [06:55:29] --- Andrew McGregor has joined [06:55:43] --- antonio has left [06:55:53] philip matthews at mic [06:56:05] I'm heading to the mic [07:00:28] spencer [07:02:19] Bruce at mic [07:03:06] are authors of competing proposals silent, or are they not present for some reason? [07:03:16] Keith at mic [07:03:44] a couple of authors I think just stood up [07:03:50] Henry Sinnreich [07:03:55] --- mariano.okon has left [07:05:03] Until we see how much of P2PP is in RELOAD we can't make judgement [07:05:48] lots of folks queuing [07:06:42] jiangxingfeng at mic [07:08:00] at mic [07:08:27] John Buford (sp?) at mic [07:08:34] --- jiangxingfeng has left: Replaced by new connection [07:08:36] he was MARCIN sitting behind me. [07:08:45] softgearko: thanks [07:08:59] --- sakuma.macx has left [07:09:17] Phillip Matthews at mic [07:10:20] Rohan at mic [07:11:13] --- jiangxingfeng has joined [07:11:22] --- jiangxingfeng has left [07:11:30] victor.pascual.avila: author of SEP [07:12:10] 3-part hum [07:12:20] 1. adopt RELOAD [07:12:35] 2. Make authors do a respin before adoption [07:12:44] --- jiangxingfeng has joined [07:12:49] 3. Do nothing. Wait. [07:12:53] Spencer to mic [07:13:49] Down to 2 hums [07:13:51] 1 and 2 [07:13:55] Hum for 1 [07:14:03] Hum for 2 [07:14:11] No consensus of the room [07:14:54] spencer at mic [07:16:02] Henning [07:16:05] Spencer [07:16:51] --- doghome2405 has joined [07:17:45] --- ldondeti has joined [07:18:43] Because there is no consensus protocol into which to merge items, the next three presos are not going to be given. [07:18:51] Their feedback should go to list and authors. [07:19:06] Gonzalo Camarillo up now for HIP BONE [07:20:19] draft http://tools.ietf.org/rfcmarkup?doc=draft-camarillo-hip-bone [07:20:31] Slides at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/p2psip-1.ppt [07:21:05] Alan Johnston at mic - excellent idea [07:21:50] John Peterson at mic [07:22:01] --- Dean Willis has left [07:22:20] Rohan Mahy at mic [07:23:11] Dean Willis at mic [07:23:43] Henning at mic [07:23:45] --- jiangxingfeng has left: Replaced by new connection [07:24:46] --- sakuma.macx has joined [07:26:06] --- victor.pascual.avila has left [07:26:07] --- richard.barnes has left [07:26:08] --- miquel.oliver has left [07:26:22] For the folks watching the video, how helpful is it? (or not?) [07:26:22] --- Andrew McGregor has left [07:26:23] --- doghome2405 has left: Replaced by new connection [07:26:41] --- miquel.oliver has joined [07:26:41] --- ma-kun has left [07:26:52] --- Andrew McGregor has joined [07:26:57] Martin Stiemerling at mic [07:26:58] --- victor.pascual.avila has joined [07:27:13] --- doghome2405 has joined [07:27:42] --- richard.barnes has joined [07:28:04] --- Dean Willis has joined [07:31:31] slide 5 [07:33:00] Phillip Matthews at mic [07:33:23] Likes 3.1 [07:33:28] Rohan at mic [07:33:55] Is it feasible to use HIP when it's only Experimental? [07:34:45] --- bhoeneis has joined [07:34:48] --- jiangxingfeng has joined [07:34:50] Phillip at mic [07:34:56] Alan at mic [07:35:20] Spencer at mic [07:36:08] Willy at mic [07:38:07] Rohan at mic [07:38:16] is there a user-visible benefit for HIP? [07:40:18] --- softgearko has left: Replaced by new connection [07:40:33] --- softgearko has joined [07:41:30] Hum 1 [07:41:38] Consensus of room [07:43:31] Hum 2 - should HIP be used as a component of our work? [07:44:01] This is so sad. [07:44:21] "Should we take our bat and our ball and go home?" [07:44:28] :p [07:44:51] how many options do we have right now? [07:44:57] :'( [07:45:37] is there a substantive technical quesetion here? [07:45:52] we don't have a p2psip protocol, and there's no proposal for how HIP might integrate [07:46:11] not mandating hip? [07:46:14] so how are you supposed to say yes/no to whether it's useful? [07:46:16] Would like to add one: "who understand the list of available options"? [07:48:03] too late [07:48:49] slides ? [07:48:57] Do I dare ask "Isn't this effectively another version of HIP?" [07:49:09] http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/p2psip-3.ppt [07:49:11] go ahead [07:49:14] Slides at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/p2psip-3.ppt [07:49:20] ttfr: thanks [07:49:28] You dare; it might be, and I think that's not a terribly sensible thing, given how complicated HIP was to get right. [07:49:43] That's actually the bit of hip I like least--retain the holy bit pattern but have it mean something else [07:51:09] You mean the HIT? [07:53:08] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-matthews-p2psip-id-loc-00 [07:53:53] --- Cullen Jennings has joined [07:54:48] I think one thing that needs understood about HIP is that it's implemented and well tested, and that the specs are written from considerable implementation experience… so adding things is fine, but leaving things out will probably cause issues, maybe subtle ones. [07:55:22] Andrew McGregor: Do you want that question relayed? (Or are you in the room and just commenting in the chatroom?) [07:55:34] I'm in the room [07:55:38] ok [07:56:05] I'll probably say that myself when he's finished [07:56:35] Doesn't this run the risk of creating what is effectively an alternate root? Couldn't each DHT have its own "example.com", in other words? [07:57:07] Slide 6 [07:57:17] I think he needs to go read some zeroconf output as well. [07:57:19] Slide 7 [07:57:22] Yes, it does risk that [07:57:35] ted - it's not like we have agreed that P2PSIP overlays assume the existance of DNS... some app scenarios do, others, don't and we haven't discussed use cases in a year [07:57:56] a much better range would perhaps be 127.x.x.x [07:58:06] what's the root of this udp over tcp idea? [07:58:14] who's responsible for it? [07:58:22] spencerdawkins: "and we haven't discussed use cases in a year" - Bingo! [07:58:23] (using 1.x.x.x was probably a bad idea, though it was used by some hip folk for testing) [07:58:30] A quick check of the draft doesn't clear this up; presumably there would need to be some level of coordination to avoid overlays choosing the same domain names to assign. [07:58:42] Slide 8 [07:58:46] Slide 9 [07:59:26] To be blunt, I hated orchids and I hate this. Trying to re-use the same identifiers and relying on shims hobbles you in many ways. [07:59:32] And they leak. [07:59:47] Which gives you odd and hard to debug reachability issues. [07:59:58] --- ldondeti has left [08:00:01] Martin Dally at mic [08:00:02] ted - repeating a comment at the mike, philip spent the entire 10 weeks since ietf 71 on TURN revisions and then slammed this revision out. shockingly, it's not complete [08:00:05] Seems like saying that to the room woudl be worth while [08:00:16] Ted: I think I somewhat agree with your reaction to this... [08:00:52] Ted: the HIP folk have often told a story that HIP can be slid into the OS underneath all the applications, without the applications needing to be aware that anything has been done to them. [08:00:57] Magnus [08:01:19] --- Lars has joined [08:01:27] So who of the ones commenting here will be going to the mics? [08:02:00] --- Lars has left [08:02:26] Ted: but a better story would be that it would be possible, when desired, to invoke an application in a way such that it would be automatically be hipified, much like there is a "socksify" that allows you to make an application capable of using a SOCKS gateway wihtout having to recompile the application. [08:02:53] shep: unfortunately, that's mindbogglingly hard to implement in most current stacks [08:03:35] Ted: and eventually... if it makes sense, we would eventually be migrating to a new API. [08:04:01] Ted at mic [08:04:53] --- ldondeti has joined [08:04:54] Ted: but getting all this right is a long-term thing, and thinking about this sort of stuff is perhaps premature within the IETF (but not the IRTF). [08:05:20] please let's move to the next topic [08:05:24] Spencer at mic [08:05:29] If it is a long term thing to do, introduce a new bit pattern, eh? [08:05:31] (for the record, all those "Ted:" things I was writing is stuff I'm saying *to* Ted in response to his earlier comment in his jabber room, not stuff he is saying) [08:05:47] Henning at mic [08:06:03] Why is this on agenda [08:06:05] ? [08:06:10] ( s/his/this/ ) [08:06:13] Andrew McGregor at mic [08:08:04] Clients preso [08:08:12] Marcin Matuszewski [08:08:27] victor.pascual.avila's also an author on this [08:09:45] Slides at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/p2psip-4.ppt [08:09:46] draft-zheng-p2psip-client-protocol is the other draft [08:10:57] Slide 2 [08:11:31] Henning [08:12:48] victor.pascual.avila at mic [08:13:25] (Man, I really *should* have set up hotkeys for names of folks going to the mic.) [08:13:31] Bruce Lowekemp at mic [08:13:34] Henning at mic [08:13:47] Sorry... Bruce at mic now, Henning queued [08:14:15] NOW, Henning at mic [08:14:23] Luckly a small number of hot keys would cover all of RAI :-) [08:14:34] Yep! [08:14:40] Next time... [08:15:39] Slide 3 [08:16:12] EKR queued (and those of you watching the video know that) [08:18:43] slide 4 [08:21:56] Slide 5 [08:22:05] at mic [08:22:17] Henning at mic rephrasing it... [08:22:31] "Why would anyone be stupid enough to be a peer?" [08:23:00] Slide 6 [08:23:07] --- lj324o230ar has left: Replaced by new connection [08:23:32] this is the common problem in most p2p systems: preventing free-riders and designing an incentive mechanism [08:23:57] yep [08:24:47] Henning preso - Data types in P2P systems [08:25:11] --- sakuma.macx has left [08:25:34] (Hmmmm... gee, these sound a bit like, oh, "requirements"! ;-) [08:25:53] http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/p2psip-5.ppt [08:26:28] For those remote, we technically have about 6 minutes left. [08:26:46] And two more presentations on the agenda left after this. [08:27:08] Slide 3 [08:27:12] Ah... Requirements [08:27:13] security and and pointers, am I right? [08:27:19] victor.pascual.avila: yes [08:27:46] So, is the question to the WG here, do we agree that this is the set of requirements? [08:28:21] Ted: that would be a question [08:29:25] I am just trying to figure out why we are getting tutorial slides on this. [08:30:51] 2 minutes [08:31:46] --- richard.barnes has left [08:32:00] --- richard.barnes has joined [08:33:26] If he thinks this is ekr speed, he's forgotten ekr completely [08:34:28] jiangxingfeng up about security [08:35:07] http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/p2psip-6.ppt [08:37:00] EKR to the mic [08:39:58] --- aki has joined [08:40:37] Ted at EKR speed [08:41:19] --- lj324o230ar has joined [08:41:36] --- john.zhao has left [08:41:39] --- bhoeneis has left [08:41:42] At least Ted is giving us something fun to end on from a presentation point-of-view. [08:41:57] http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/p2psip-7.ppt [08:42:10] --- doghome2405 has left [08:42:42] --- shep has left [08:43:03] --- richard.barnes has left [08:43:06] --- xiaohunhun has left [08:43:07] --- jiangxingfeng has left [08:43:17] --- Cullen Jennings has left [08:43:29] Checking out... see you all in Dublin. 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