IETF
netvc@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, March 24, 2015< ^ >
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[13:38:45] gmaxwell has set the subject to: NETVC BOF -- IETF 92 -- [url to slides] -- [url to streams]
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[13:44:46] gmaxwell has set the subject to: NETVC BOF -- IETF 92 -- Audio: http://ietf92streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf928.m3u --
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[13:50:28] gmaxwell has set the subject to: NETVC BOF -- IETF 92 -- Audio: http://ietf92streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf928.m3u -- Meetecho: http://venetian.conf.meetecho.com/meetecho/login.jsp?ietf=netvc -- Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-netvc-0.pdf
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[13:58:54] gmaxwell has set the subject to: NETVC BOF -- IETF 92 --  Opus: http://venetian.conf.meetecho.com:8000/venetian.opus MP3: http://ietf92streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf928.m3u -- Meetecho: http://venetian.conf.meetecho.com/meetecho/login.jsp?ietf=netvc --  Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-netvc-0.pdf
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[14:03:18] <Randell Jesup> No audio/video yet for meetecho; have things started?
[14:03:24] gmaxwell has set the subject to: NETVC BOF -- IETF 92 --  Opus: http://venetian.conf.meetecho.com:8000/venetian.opus MP3: http://ietf92streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf928.m3u -- Meetecho: http://venetian.conf.meetecho.com/meetecho/login.jsp?ietf=netvc --  Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-netvc-0.pdf -- Mailing-list: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/video-codec/current/maillist.html
[14:03:28] <Ted.H> Just starting
[14:03:47] <Dan York 2> We can hear you
[14:03:48] <Ted.H> Can you hear mp3 stream?
[14:03:55] <tdaede> this MP3 stream works: http://ietf92streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf928.m3u
[14:03:58] <Dan York 2> We can hear you on the Meetecho stream
[14:04:02] <kempfjb> Useing the m3u for me, it works.
[14:04:10] <tdaede> (the mp3 stream is not meetecho)
[14:04:32] <Randell Jesup> let me rejoin; I'm not hearing anything on meetecho
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[14:05:09] <Dan York 2> Randell Jesup: I am in the Meetecho stream and the audio is working fine
[14:05:16] <tdaede> Dan, is it the MP3 link?
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[14:05:34] <tdaede> The MP3 link is the only working one for me (but it is not meetecho)
[14:05:37] <Dan York 2> tdaede: No, I'm using the Meetecho WebRTC audio.
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[14:05:45] <hildjj> I'll be relaying questions from the Jabber room to the mic.  If you want that service, please prefix a message here with "MIC:"
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[14:05:51] <Dan York 2> hildjj: Thank you!
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[14:06:30] <Ted.H> Does this slide indicate he has a jaundiced view?
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[14:06:37] <hildjj> #nofilter
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[14:10:19] <Joe Hall> Kieth from the mic asked if this is a done deal; barnes clarified that this is to determine whether or not we should engage in this work
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[14:12:11] <Ted.H> Can you hear Mo?
[14:12:25] <Randell Jesup> yes, we can hear and se
[14:12:26] <Joe Hall> and you should perhaps be able to see him in his box
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[14:50:24] <Joe Hall> pretty bitchin' demo: https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/daala/update1.shtml
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[14:55:07] <Cullen Jennings> does anyone know name of person at mic right now
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[14:55:13] <negge> Tim Terriberry is at the mic
[14:55:19] <negge> Do you mean the mic line?>
[14:55:22] <Monty Montgomery> I, personally, look at the video output constantly :-)
[14:55:25] <Cullen Jennings> h, the mic line , sorry
[14:55:26] <negge> Frank Bosson is at the mic line
[14:55:35] <Cullen Jennings> thanks
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[15:03:25] <EKR> areecompressedyet.com
[15:03:42] <Ross Finlayson> Have all of the people who have contributed to the Daala software implementation (via github) signed the equivalent of a 'Note Well'?
[15:03:49] <EKR> https://arewecompressedyet.com/
[15:04:05] <Adam Roach> Ross: do you want Joe to bring that to the mic?
[15:04:15] <EKR> "If you could see this scale on the bottom, what you would see would be"
[15:04:55] <Ross Finlayson> Sure.
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[15:06:20] <Joe Hall> answer was no, if you're not listening
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[15:06:37] <Joe Hall> but that they could get the equivalent of that by asking contributors
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[15:06:57] <hildjj> and that they have good tracking of who contributed each line of code
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[15:16:40] <Randell Jesup> I agree with Harald; competitive is the most I'd want to say
[15:23:40] <gmaxwell> With respect to gale's comment ... It would be interesting to know how many of the existing contributors to the daala codebase would have the means to be a full (e.g. voting) participant in an MPEG code effort.   I expect that number is nearly zero.    Maybe of us (like me) participate as individuals on our own dollar.
[15:25:27] <gmaxwell> (which is part of the reason we're looking at the IETF to contribute;  and was the story with Opus as well;  other 'obvious' SDOs do not have an open process by a definition that would seem familiar to the Free Software or internet community; and I don't believe anything substantive has changed there)
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[15:26:13] <hildjj> gmaxwell: are you here in the room?  if not, do you want that relayed?
[15:26:24] <jack> hildjj: he is here :)
[15:26:24] <Adam Roach> hildjj: He's in here
[15:26:28] <hildjj> cool.
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[15:27:10] <gmaxwell> nah, don't want it to be relayed. I'm in the room.
[15:27:26] <gmaxwell> unless people really think I should take it to the mic.
[15:27:34] <gmaxwell> I feel like it's a bit of a tangent.
[15:27:36] <EKR> gmaxwell, no I don't think you need to
[15:28:03] <gmaxwell> codec wg had a specific "we should coordinate"  clause;   but I think it didn't earn us too much.
[15:28:09] <gmaxwell> (in the charter)
[15:29:38] <Monty Montgomery> I would like to agree with the pointr that it would be good to lead the ITU and MPEG in a direction that it has tried in the past and maybe could succceed in the future.  However, I also believe there are structural reasons why it will fail again.
[15:30:20] <Monty Montgomery> It would be nice if the suggestion succeeded.  I just don't think it will.
[15:30:48] <Randell Jesup> Mic: I agree with Harald (and others); "better" is a rathole to define - and not really the success criteria.  "Competitive" (especially for interactive/RTP use) and RF (as best is possible) is what we should say (if we need to say something about quality/performance).  Targeting to be better for at least some use-cases (for some un-specified in the charter/req definition of 'better') is still a goal.  To the person from Fox: a large part of the impetus for this work was the IPR issues surrounding existing codecs, as shown by the hammer and tongs around selecting an MTI codec for WebRTC.
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[15:33:01] <Tony Hansen> would be nice if the slides were on the meeting materials site https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/92/materials.html#wg-netvc
[15:33:44] <negge> Tony: I believe they are
[15:33:51] <Adam Roach> Tony Hansen: I'm confused. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5i77o4peal2acje/Screenshot%202015-03-24%2010.33.45.png?dl=0
[15:33:53] <Tony Hansen> sigh, refresh
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[15:34:00] <Adam Roach> What do you get when you click on the bottom link?
[15:34:00] <Tony Hansen> sorry for the noise
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[15:34:40] <jack> NETVC BoF is the link: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-netvc-0.pdf is the direct link
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[15:38:57] <Randell Jesup> agree, strike
[15:40:48] <gmaxwell> I hope its just not a goal to _mandate_ a single mode of operation.  Having a bunch of profiles kind of stinks, and if the WG can minimize profiles thats preferable where it can be done without compromising on the other goals.
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[15:55:34] <rbarnes > for the benefit of those following along — which BCPs are being referred to?
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[15:55:56] <gmaxwell> bleh, I wasn't clear I guess. BCP79 sets requirements for disclosure which are non-negotiable in the context of the IETF.   I agree with Ted's view on presenting this as "these are things we know is acceptable."  Which is I thought what the current charter set said.
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[15:56:55] <rbarnes > gmaxwell: right.  the phrasing i've liked was something like "these are terms that have generally been acceptable to the IETF community in the past"
[15:58:24] <katwalsh> I am merely an IP lawyer, not an antitrust lawyer, but I am not seeing any red flags here.
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[16:01:07] <Ted.H> I disagree with Harald; RFC 3979 has this text:  However, the requirement for an IPR disclosure is
   satisfied by a blanket statement of the IPR discloser's willingness
   to license all of its potential IPR meeting the requirements of
   Section 6.6 (and either Section 6.1.1 or 6.1.2) to implementers of an
   IETF specification on a royalty-free basis as long as any other terms
   and conditions are disclosed in the IPR disclosure statement.
[16:01:29] <Ted.H> While that is not "licensing terms" writ large, it is clearly a treatment of license terms in the doc.
[16:01:33] <gmaxwell> Yea, RF or list your patents and terms.
[16:04:09] <gmaxwell> Daala is just an existence proof for something that could possibly be started with.
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[16:05:32] <Randell Jesup> hummmmm
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[16:06:01] <gmaxwell> There is a hum being called for "Is there a problem that needs solving?"    "would we be making the internet better in some way"
[16:06:15] <Jonathan Lennox> Remember to prefix Jabber room hums with specifically which question you're humming on.
[16:06:56] <Maire Reavy> hum
[16:06:57] <Randell Jesup> Yeah, I didn't know what the 'Hum' button did
[16:06:58] <Mark Harris> hummmmm
[16:07:00] <Randell Jesup> hummmmm
[16:07:01] <katwalsh> 1: hum
[16:07:01] <samlaane> hum
[16:07:02] <Monty Montgomery> hummmmm
[16:07:04] <Thomas Daede> hummmmm
[16:07:12] <Smarter> hum
[16:07:32] <Randell Jesup> hum: yes, well-defined
[16:07:32] <Maire Reavy> hum (yes)
[16:07:36] <gmaxwell> room strong to unanimous  on the first question.
[16:07:44] <samlaane> hum (well-defined)
[16:07:48] <Monty Montgomery> hummm (yes)
[16:07:49] <katwalsh> hum
[16:07:50] <Thomas Daede> hummmmm
[16:07:51] <Smarter> 2: hum
[16:08:01] <gmaxwell> New question is "Is the scope of the problem well defined"
[16:08:31] <gmaxwell> please make your hums look like "humm for well defined"
[16:08:49] <Thomas Daede> I wrote one draft
[16:08:49] <Monty Montgomery> "hands for willing"
[16:08:57] <Maire Reavy> I would be willing
[16:08:57] <gmaxwell> "Are there people willing to do the work?" (show of hands)
[16:09:01] <Smarter> humm for well defined
[16:09:07] <Randell Jesup> I would be willing to write or review
[16:09:09] <Maire Reavy> I would be willing to review
[16:09:10] <Yushin Cho> hands from here
[16:09:22] <Monty Montgomery> "hands"
[16:09:22] <Smarter> I'm willing to work on the implementation
[16:09:59] <gmaxwell> "How many feel that a WG should not be formed at the IETF"
[16:10:08] <gmaxwell> (you can hum for or against that statement)
[16:10:12] <Dan York 2> Hum in favor of forming a WG
[16:10:13] <Maire Reavy> hum (yes, it should be formed)
[16:10:14] <Randell Jesup> hum: should form
[16:10:19] <katwalsh> him in favor of forming
[16:10:19] <Monty Montgomery> "hum for should form"
[16:10:19] <Mark Harris> hum should form
[16:10:20] <Thomas Daede> hummmmm
[16:10:21] <samlaane> hum (for working group)
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[16:10:28] <Ross Finlayson> hum (should for a WG)
[16:10:29] <Smarter> hum for should form
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[16:10:40] <gmaxwell> Thomas Daede: I assume that was for should form  
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[16:11:02] <gmaxwell> Thanks everyone!
[16:11:04] <kempfjb> Thanks!
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[16:11:07] <kempfjb> Good luck
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[16:11:08] <Monty Montgomery> yay!  
[16:11:10] <Monty Montgomery> bye!
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