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[08:01:04] <sharon> blue sheets
[08:04:19] <sharon> agenda - text file [and eye chart]
[08:07:21] <sharon> <no charts for pep talk>
[08:08:30] <sharon> -----
[08:08:33] <sharon> NETMOD architecture
[08:09:21] <sharon> slide 2
[08:09:58] <sharon> why isn't yin a single document?
[08:10:42] <sharon> slide 3
[08:11:57] <sharon> slide 4
[08:12:08] <sharon> "Where does yang fit?"
[08:12:50] <sharon> slide 5
[08:15:48] <sharon> oops - we are on slide "Use Case #3"
[08:16:19] <sharon> "Use case #4"
[08:18:01] <sharon> send input at this point directly to phil and lada
[08:18:33] <sharon> ----------------
[08:18:37] <sharon> Martin
[08:18:45] <andy> on use case 2, how does the agent generate the proper <rpc-error> elements with this approach
[08:19:26] <sharon> asked
[08:19:51] Juergen Schoenwaelder joins the room
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[08:20:44] <sharon> b* - isn't that more a question for the DSDL mapping?
[08:21:01] <andy> OK
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[08:21:23] <sharon> ----------
[08:21:30] <sharon> Martin (take 2)
[08:22:05] <sharon> Yang High-level Presentation; Yin; XML on the wire
[08:22:29] <sharon> slide 1
[08:22:31] <sharon> sorry 2
[08:22:35] <sharon> "Yang High-level"
[08:25:20] <sharon> "yang concepts"
[08:25:56] <sharon> [doesn't it get messy when you have your state and configuration data interleaved?]
[08:26:13] <sharon> "Yang module"
[08:26:39] <Juergen Schoenwaelder> [you do not have to interleave if you do not want ;-]
[08:26:50] <sharon> [thanks ... very helpful ;-)]
[08:27:01] <sharon> [It makes more sense to interleave though]
[08:27:21] <sharon> "data definitions"
[08:28:43] <sharon> "strucure 1(3)"
[08:28:48] <sharon> slide 6
[08:29:07] <andy> no 'choice' on slide 5...
[08:29:29] <sharon> andy - is that editorial or do you want me to say it at the mike?
[08:30:05] <sharon> structure 2(3)
[08:30:11] <andy> just editorial I guess -- it is an important construct
[08:31:56] <sharon> Q - is there a way with a list or something else to allow modeling a set? Where order is not important
[08:31:59] <sharon> A - that is the default
[08:32:29] <sharon> A - this says it can carry semantic meaning
[08:32:36] <sharon> dave h - example does not show ordering
[08:32:43] <sharon> A - right, have not shown everything
[08:33:11] <sharon> L* -an unorderedl list is not the same as a set; anything can only be there once
[08:33:22] <sharon> A - a list is a set
[08:33:44] <sharon> wes - are you going to go into when keys are unique? Can identify uniqeness via keys
[08:33:51] <sharon> a - keys have to be unique
[08:34:07] <sharon> a - might require multiple keys sometimes
[08:34:15] <sharon> slide 8 - structure 3(3)
[08:35:00] <sharon> slide 9 - reusable simple types
[08:35:18] <sharon> l* - back one slide ... not a set?
[08:35:20] <sharon> A - still a set
[08:35:37] <sharon> l* - can't be. otherwise 2 threes would not be allowed.
[08:35:44] <sharon> A - not allowed to have that.
[08:35:59] <sharon> l* - that would be strange. Or am I misunderstanding something?
[08:36:12] <sharon> l* - arrat of basic types
[08:36:23] <sharon> <etc etc etc>
[08:36:44] <andy> you can have N duplicates -- there is no key in a leaf-list
[08:38:26] <sharon> dave h - take to list
[08:38:36] <sharon> slide 9
[08:38:53] <andy> edit with ordered-by user, insert attribute
[08:39:24] <sharon> andy -didn't parse that. Comment for the mike?
[08:39:41] <andy> no, Dave says take it to the list
[08:39:47] <sharon> ok
[08:39:58] <sharon> slide 10
[08:40:17] <sharon> slide 11
[08:40:56] <sharon> slide 12
[08:42:42] <sharon> end of yang; talk about yin
[08:42:42] <sharon> slide 13
[08:43:03] <sharon> q - <missed it; playing with network connectivity>
[08:44:57] <sharon> l* - is the xml represenatation unique? or can there be multiple XML for  a single yang
[08:45:00] <sharon> a - unique
[08:45:20] <sharon> a - except for the usual whitespace and namespace, etc
[08:45:44] <sharon> l* - need uniquness or you can't use XSLT
[08:45:56] <sharon> dave p - the rules will be in the document
[08:46:10] <sharon> slide 14
[08:46:58] <sharon> slide 15
[08:47:34] <sharon> slide 16
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[08:47:54] <sharon> [this is a lot more tutorial then I was expecting]
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[08:49:30] <sharon> tony - is the intention to just have a mapping from multiple modeules and sub modules into a single XML File?
[08:49:32] <sharon> a - no
[08:49:43] <sharon> slide 17
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[08:50:16] <sharon> slide 18
[08:51:18] <sharon> slide 9
[08:51:29] <sharon> slide 20
[08:52:21] <sharon> slide 21 "Free Yang Tools"
[08:52:23] <andy> oops, both servers on port 25...
[08:53:13] <sharon> Q - in yang there is a feature caled instance identifier. the xml representation is xpath; another option <encoding something>
[08:53:39] <sharon> Q - why was xpath chosen since the other way does not require understanding xapth
[08:53:40] <andy> FYI: yangdump now called yangtools, includes yangdump and yangdiff
[08:53:53] <sharon> a - like subtree?
[08:54:00] <sharon> Q - <stuff>
[08:54:45] <sharon> Dave p - suggest post alternative to mailing list
[08:55:25] <sharon> l* - primary reason is xpath is actually a standard
[08:55:34] <sharon> l* - basic types in yang and mapped to xsd types
[08:55:36] <sharon> a - yes
[08:55:52] <sharon> l* - you have other definitions as well. Do you have xsd definitions for these?
[08:56:01] <sharon> a - that has more to do with DSDL mapping
[08:56:20] <sharon> l* another reason to make sure xml rep is unique
[08:56:38] <sharon> juergen - currently no mapping to xsd for base datatypes, but we can discuss
[08:56:44] <sharon> "Things to work on" slide 22
[08:59:00] <sharon> --------
[08:59:07] <sharon> Juergen
[08:59:12] <sharon> Common Yang Data Types
[08:59:39] <sharon> slide 2
[09:00:45] <sharon> slide 3 - module yang-types
[09:01:04] <sharon> module - inet-types
[09:01:48] <sharon> module ieee-types
[09:02:11] <sharon> example usage
[09:03:27] <andy> concerned about duplication, have ip-address, InetAddress from smidump conversion, + SMI to XSD
[09:05:02] <sharon> q - maybe data types from ipfix that we could import
[09:05:13] <sharon> dave p - add stuff that you have written into this document
[09:05:34] <sharon> <we can look into doing this>
[09:06:24] <sharon> a - two different things; data types we define for using in yang modules and there is conversion
[09:06:41] <sharon> a - some hacks because we don't have union, which we don't need in NETCONF
[09:06:57] <sharon> dave p - so, there should be duplication, but not where it is semantically different
[09:07:25] <sharon> Issue #1
[09:07:30] <sharon> Issue #3
[09:07:34] <sharon> oops #2
[09:07:48] <sharon> Issue #3
[09:08:32] <sharon> Issue #4
[09:08:50] <sharon> Issue #6
[09:08:59] <sharon> Issue #7
[09:09:34] <sharon> Issue #8
[09:10:03] <sharon> [if they type exists in XSD, we should not get inventive]
[09:10:07] <sharon> Issue #9
[09:10:15] <sharon> Issue #10
[09:11:04] <sharon> ------------
[09:12:14] <dlpartain> outline
[09:12:56] <dlpartain> What is DSDL
[09:14:07] <dlpartain> Scope of DSDL for NETCONF
[09:17:10] <dlpartain> Overview
[09:17:20] <dlpartain> (sorry, i stepped away)
[09:17:28] <dlpartain> draft-mahy-canmod-dsdl-02
[09:19:29] <dlpartain> draft-lhotka...
[09:21:27] <sharon> q -is code available on web, where martin pointed?
[09:21:33] <sharon> a  - created an account at google code
[09:21:43] <sharon> a - people can contribute
[09:21:54] <sharon> dave p - that was the pointer in martin's slidse
[09:21:58] <dlpartain> googlecode...
[09:22:00] <sharon> a - yes. contributions welcome
[09:22:14] <sharon> "vocabularies used"
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[09:27:41] <sharon> "next steps"
[09:29:17] <sharon> "rpc and notification"
[09:33:17] <sharon> Bal* - not specifically to this. We either had a debate of what the DSDL was describing? The data model or the content.
[09:33:30] <sharon> sharon - all NETMOD thigns need to support both
[09:34:41] <sharon> "Multiple Root Notes"
[09:35:59] <andy> multiple roots is OK in XSD
[09:37:52] <sharon> Martin - when mapped to NETCONF PDUs, everything will be well-formed.
[09:38:30] <sharon> Martin - goes back to PDU versus content
[09:38:48] <andy> side issue - standardize <config> container for file storage of NETCONF configurations
[09:38:51] <sharon> Martin - conceptual tree sort of works, but may have other issues
[09:38:59] <sharon> [interesting]
[09:39:09] <sharon> "example conceptual tree"
[09:40:01] <andy> is this tree needed -- all these YANG definitions are in the same namespace in YANG and XML
[09:40:41] <sharon> Bal* - Need to state even more clearly, how many schema you will generate for every yang module. If I am niave, I would say with one concept. tree, there would be one for everything
[09:40:49] <sharon> Bal* - please me clearer
[09:41:17] <sharon> Lada - You can use it straight with relax ng validators to find errors. DId so with XML examplse from DHCP
[09:41:57] <sharon> [I think it will be interesting to get some of these use cases into Phil's document]
[09:42:17] <sharon> phil - <config wrapper stuff I missed>
[09:42:31] <sharon> phil - will it describe the content of edit-config, filters, etc
[09:42:40] <sharon> Lada - right now the same stuff that is expressed in yang
[09:43:42] <sharon> phil - phases of vaidation turned on and off
[09:44:14] <sharon> lada - I can mention that. you can use command line translator to turn on and of features of translation
[09:44:47] <sharon> phil - is there some way to make the content of the RPC section extend a base NETCONF RPC, then add to it with the RPCs defined in new module
[09:45:03] <sharon> lada - that's why I asked for a real-life example
[09:45:26] <sharon> phil - we can do a formal definition. In the DSDL, you descrive the additional tags provided to base model
[09:45:51] <sharon> lada - idea to put information from yang and do input and output. what is done with it later, perhaps out of scope of the DSDL definition
[09:46:15] <sharon> phil - I want to be able to validate <edit-config>
[09:46:21] <sharon> dave p - seee what makes it intot he draft
[09:46:31] <sharon> Q?
[09:46:34] <sharon> --------------
[09:46:51] <sharon> (back to eye chart agenda)
[09:47:37] <sharon> keep yang and yin in one specification?
[09:47:49] <sharon> no objections
[09:48:08] <sharon> keep XML in the wire in one document for same reason?
[09:48:10] <sharon> no objections
[09:48:36] <sharon> yang datatypes - decided to split out. Any comments?
[09:48:43] <sharon> ready to be accepted as working group draft?
[09:48:55] <sharon> accepted
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[09:50:03] <sharon> two DSDL drafts - combined into one; once published, not working group draft.
[09:50:58] <sharon> oops. I meant it will be then become working gruop draft, but the next version will be individual submission
[09:51:18] <sharon> -------
[09:51:23] <sharon> Moving into issues
[09:51:57] <sharon> Juergen's issue list
[09:52:09] <sharon> Issue #1
[09:52:27] <sharon> Issue #2
[09:52:37] <andy> get this feature from N typdefs in a typedef chain
[09:53:10] <andy> what about multiple error-messages, error-app-tag, etc
[09:53:42] <andy> already supported in yang
[09:54:22] <andy> I guess
[09:54:34] <andy> too complicated IMO
[09:56:11] <sharon> Issue #3
[09:56:12] <andy> fine -- N new patterns is easier on the reader than N new typedefs
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[09:57:25] <sharon> B - this may get revved each month. can we handle this?
[09:57:38] <sharon> dave p - this is a risk, but this is a process issue. no good answer
[09:58:30] <sharon> Q - groupings look like type defs. Could ask question. Reusable typedefs for you guys is a good idea .... inheritenace on groupings. Cannot of modify a grouping
[09:58:41] <sharon> dave p - as of today - can't augment a grouping
[09:59:14] <sharon> <more discussion>
[10:00:42] <sharon> dave h - for MIBs, we have a web page that points to typedefs that might be useful to people
[10:01:16] <sharon> Q - need a directorate - MIB doctor type thing
[10:02:36] <andy> benefit: makes it easier for new modules to import just the reusable bits
[10:02:50] <sharon> Issue #4
[10:04:04] <sharon> dan - cross participaton, etc
[10:04:43] <sharon> dan - eric grey(gray?) liason to IEEE. Dan liasson on other end
[10:06:00] <sharon> dan - mpls need IEEE, so we enabling IETF work
[10:06:03] <sharon> Issue #5
[10:06:29] <sharon> Issue #6
[10:07:43] <sharon> Dave h - comment I missed
[10:07:56] <sharon> <more discussion>
[10:08:40] <sharon> wes - we publish TC in the wrong format. In RFC, that is hard to update, not the way to go.
[10:11:53] <sharon> <discussion>
[10:12:05] <sharon> a - more an issue when we move beyond the first release
[10:12:50] <sharon> [and I should capture my point about  making URLs web accessible]
[10:15:35] <sharon> interim meeting?
[10:16:21] <sharon> Juergen - absolutely needed if we take the deadline seriously
[10:16:31] <sharon> phil - needed
[10:16:42] <sharon> who might attend
[10:17:03] <andy> count?
[10:17:04] <sharon> 10-12 people
[10:17:14] <andy> I plan to go
[10:17:28] <sharon> 3 people who can't make it but would like to
[10:17:52] <sharon> what if we move it two weeks later
[10:18:26] <sharon> dan - ask if people who object to the face to face meeting
[10:19:04] <sharon> dan - considering other means, like conferencing
[10:19:28] <sharon> dave p - don't think it's feasible. if author teams, want to use them, that is fine
[10:19:50] <sharon> dave p - time zones make it difficult to be inclusive.
[10:20:31] <sharon> dan - i work 7 time zones away from boss, 10 time zones away from development, it is hard
[10:23:55] <andy> what about jabber and audio feed from the interim meeting?
[10:24:48] <sharon> actually, it is really bad to mix people in person and those on the audio bridge. 
[10:24:55] <sharon> Really. Really. Really. Bad
[10:25:19] <sharon> It's fine here where we have mikes, but when you don't.
[10:26:00] <andy> what about M-W, 6-8?
[10:26:15] <sharon> what's that? 
[10:26:24] <andy> oct 6-8
[10:26:24] <sharon> Oh, monday-wednesdsy, the week befroe
[10:26:35] <sharon> we can take it to the list
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[10:27:22] <sharon> 4 or 5 prefer virtually
[10:27:27] <andy> prefer real meeting
[10:27:27] <sharon> twice as many
[10:27:47] <sharon> wes - some of us get to IETF because of other work we do here.
[10:28:00] <sharon> wes - you will get more participation virtually
[10:28:41] <sharon> [again, powerpoint shared works really well]
[10:29:03] <andy> skype to skype is free
[10:29:06] <sharon> end of session
[10:29:14] <andy> bye
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[14:24:55] <lhotka> Hi Bert, I am just compiling minutes of the session. Not being an experienced jabberist,
[14:25:17] <lhotka> can I get somewhere a script from the morning jabber session? Thanks, Lada
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