IETF
mtgvenue
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Wednesday, March 29, 2017< ^ >
LouBerger has set the subject to: IETF 97 MTGVENUE WG
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[13:58:16] Brian Carpenter has set the subject to: IETF 98 MTGVENUE WG
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[14:05:41] <Barry Leiba> Who here is actually remote?
[14:06:48] <Peter Koch> /me
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[14:07:05] <Barry Leiba> Hi, Peter.  Can you hear OK?
[14:07:18] <Peter Koch> yes, audio is great
[14:07:20] <Barry Leiba> ta
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[14:12:13] <Suresh Krishnan> Hi Barry, I am remote in another meeting room
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[14:14:31] <Brian Carpenter> Barry or I will try to relay any comments, if you prefix with something like MIC: or MICROPHONE:
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[14:20:24] <Brian Carpenter> andrew sullivan speaking
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[14:28:05] <ajs> The point about “goes in a contract” I was trying to make is that the list of Mandatory has contractual consequences.  That is, if a Mandatory item doesn’t get met, then we don’t meet there.  It _could_ be that means we’re paying for cancellation
[14:28:36] <ajs> I completely disagree with Barry about this: if we wouldn’t cancel because of financial reasons, it’s not really a mandatory requirement at all.
[14:29:11] <ajs> it’s highly important
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[14:30:45] <Brian Carpenter> This is a bit like mandatory-to-implement vs mandatory-to-deploy. Some things are mandatory-to-select and others are mandatory-to-not-cancel. And as Ted saysm
[14:30:51] <Barry Leiba> Andrew: What I mean is that (let's say) we might not ever get to contract if there are no supermarkets, so it's "mandatory" up to that point… but if all the supermarkets close two months before the meeting, we might not cancel the meeting because of that.
[14:31:34] <Barry Leiba> Yes, Brian, that's the sense I was getting to.
[14:31:36] <Brian Carpenter> ... mandatory-to-not-cancel may depend on how many days are left
[14:31:38] <ajs> It might be that we need a distinction between mandatory-for-selection vs mandatory-to-have?
[14:31:45] <Barry Leiba> Andrew: yes.
[14:32:11] <Brian Carpenter> Andrew: yes, with the timing added
[14:32:34] <suzworldwide> "mandatory-to-have" = "we'll cancel an existing contract if it goes away"
[14:32:38] <suzworldwide> ?
[14:32:56] <ajs> right
[14:33:11] <ajs> consider the obvious example: the number of meeting rooms goes away
[14:33:21] <ajs> we literally cannot have the meeting there.
[14:33:23] <Brian Carpenter> right, which is how I got 'mandatory-to-not-cancel'
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[14:38:03] <Alissa Cooper> https://github.com/elear/mtgvenue/issues
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[14:56:53] <Jari Arkko> +1 to what Ted was saying about first clarifying what mandatory means
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[15:02:16] <Barry Leiba> Brian: some of this is done pre-IAOC involvement.  IAD looks at possible venues, eliminates some.  That sort of thing.
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[15:19:00] <Jari Arkko> +1 to andrew's point on this issue
[15:24:49] <ajs> BTW, I apologize that I had to step out for part of the discussion about the issues I’d raised before.  I had a conflict that was scheduled before the agenda changed, and I couldn’t move it.
[15:28:25] <resnick> We appreciate everybody’s flexibility in attending when they can. In other words, no apology necessary.
[15:35:04] <ajs> The Vancouver-as-Asia thing is an urban legend
[15:35:57] <ajs> The selection rules at the time was “Asia-Pacific”, and the actual target venue in APAC fell through, so people selected Vancouver as at least being on the Pacific and available
[15:36:14] <Brian Carpenter> Not quite: one meeting that was intended to be in Asia, which Auckland bid for among others, was eventually set for Vancouver.
[15:36:30] <ajs> but it came to be called “Asia that year” and that’s how the urban legend happened.
[15:36:52] <Brian Carpenter> Right, That's why we need clarity
[15:36:59] <ajs> Yes, and the arrangements for the Auckland site fell through for various reasons
[15:37:10] <ajs> I agree that clarity is important
[15:37:21] <Brian Carpenter> Not complaining, just the facts...
[15:37:29] <ajs> but I don’t think anyone ever actually said that Vancouver was in Asia, and that’s all I’m trying to say
[15:38:11] <Alissa Cooper> I thought the point was not that the rule was actually broken that time, but that it offends people's sensibilities when a meeting allocated to the "Asia" slot lands in North America
[15:38:26] <Barry Leiba> Aww… Huawei hosted it *because* it was in Asia!
[15:38:28] <Barry Leiba> :-D
[15:38:34] <Brian Carpenter> It did.
[15:38:51] <Brian Carpenter> (offend sensisbilities I mean)
[15:39:03] <Alissa Cooper> that is a problem, I think
[15:39:23] <Brian Carpenter> And Hawaii is definitely in AP, but not APNIC
[15:39:36] <ajs> That _is_ the point, but it keeps getting described as “Vancouver is in Asia”, and that is an unfair description that seems to me to be obscuring the way the trade actually happened.  (That is, we’re building a straw person and then tearing it down, which is not a good idea.)
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[15:39:44] <Barry Leiba> It's a problem if we try to tell people it's Asia.  It's not a problem if we explain that we tried… hard… and failed.
[15:40:19] <ajs> Right, and I do not recall anyone ever saying that Vancouver is in Asia.  I’ll cheerfully retract that claim if someone has evidence to the contrary
[15:40:29] <ajs> It was indeed annoying at the time and a process failure
[15:40:35] <Barry Leiba> No, no, I'm quite sure you're right.
[15:41:00] <ajs> we shouldn’t pretend that these failures are as stupid as saying “vancouver in asia”
[15:41:18] <ajs> because if the problem were that shallow the solution would be easy :)
[15:41:39] <resnick> Let’s not be discussing MTGVENUE in Greenland, thank you very much.
[15:44:39] <Alissa Cooper> we should acknowledge reality that nobody needs to say "vancouver is in asia" for people to get the perception that the asian slot was allocated to north america
[15:46:16] <Barry Leiba> Alissa, I don't agree: if we're explicitly clear that we *tried* to do Asia, but were unsuccessful and Vancouver was only a fallback…. we can mostly avoid that perception.
[15:46:25] <Barry Leiba> I don't think we were clear about that.
[15:48:02] <Alissa Cooper> I mostly agree. I think we are almost getting to the point where people even expect us to rotate the regions in a certain order (NA spring, Europe summer, Asia fall) and that is an expectation we're going to need to combat going forward.
[15:48:21] <Barry Leiba> Indeed.
[15:52:26] <Jari Arkko> +1 to andrew's issue on responsibility
[16:08:53] <ajs> Me, I like the fact that there is a Mandatory requirement for something that is “possible and probable”.  I wish my crystal ball were that good.
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[16:21:05] <ajs> I suspect the mandatory-selection vs mandatory-for-not-cancelling distinction is needed here
[16:21:58] <ajs> Are we really going to find acceptable a facility where someone who uses a wheelchair can’t get to some meeting rooms?
[16:22:21] <ajs> That feels to me like a deal-breaker
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