IETF
MADINAS
madinas@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, July 28, 2021< ^ >
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[19:02:41] <Ben Campbell_web_789> contrast on text is low
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[19:04:56] <Carlos Bernardos_web_412> I'm afraid we cannot easily change the contrast now, sorry about that
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[19:05:44] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> sharing screen is the way to go: slides are sharp albeit some contrast issue
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[19:13:22] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> The ultimate goal for this WG-forming BoF is to answer the section 4 of RFC 5434 based on the presentations and discussions in the next 2 hours.
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[19:19:09] <Roman Danyliw_web_493> Is the intent for this proposed WG to conduct a similar study (just like RCM TIG/SG) on the impact of RCM to IETF protocols?  The charter text has "The MADINAS Working Group will examine the effect of RCM schemes on network and application services in several scenarios identified as relevant."
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[19:23:04] <Ben Campbell_web_789> This isn't working--need to fix it
[19:23:11] <Shane Kerr_web_747> So... quiet...
[19:23:21] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @meetecho any chance to increase the volume ?
[19:23:27] <Jason Weil_web_926> Is it a mic issue?
[19:23:29] <mcr> I can't hear him at all.
[19:23:30] <Luigi Iannone_web_229> not easy to follow
[19:23:35] <Cullen Jennings_web_786> I can't understand any of this
[19:23:40] <Cullen Jennings_web_786> I think he has the wrong mic
[19:23:48] <mcr> His mic gain is too low, or he selected the wrong mic.
[19:23:53] <Ben Campbell_web_789> can we stop and fix this? Presentation isn't working with sound so low.
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[19:23:57] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> can we pause until he fixes
[19:24:18] <mcr> need to start over from beginning.
[19:24:19] <Meetecho> He can change the mic from the settings/change devices button
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[19:24:30] <Meetecho> If he's using the wrong mic
[19:24:31] <Joerg Ott_web_915> turning up the volume to a level that hurts when somebody else speaks, helps
[19:25:29] <Ben Campbell_web_789> Thanks!
[19:25:39] <Cullen Jennings_web_786> The change device button does not actually work for me
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[19:26:34] <Ted Hardie_web_111> various sectors of our members doesn't say much; naming who has trouble would be useful here, I think.
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[19:29:06] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> How about SAE Password ID? That is the solution for home
[19:29:25] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> Not sure why that one is being overlooked in these discussions
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[19:29:59] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> Passpoint = outside the home
SAE Password ID (users and/or devices) + DPP (devices) = inside the home
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[19:30:13] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> done. problem solved :)
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[19:30:38] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> How many homes do user per user credentials ?
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[19:30:55] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> Don't think anyone offers it
[19:30:58] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> How many homes rely on  per user credentials ?
[19:31:14] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @tim: I failed to spot the 2nd degree ;-)
[19:31:16] <Jason Weil_web_926> none today Eric. many will in time :)
[19:31:21] <mcr> DPP does onboarding, not authentication, and in current documents, it provides a single credential to the device.
[19:31:51] <Jason Weil_web_926> DPP supports Per device PSK
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[19:32:12] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> Using DPP for a PSK would be unfortunate
[19:32:36] <mcr> per-device PSK depends upon the AAA structure using the MAC address to index into the PSK database.
[19:32:50] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> *proprietary* per device PSK does
[19:33:20] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> most deployments do not want per-device PSKs bound to device identifiers
[19:33:30] <mcr> @Tim, I have running code, I have no idea how to lookup an appropriate PSK lookup without the mac address.
[19:33:36] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> it is simply a hack because there is no other option
[19:33:54] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> @mcr, many vendors offer multi-PSK without AAA / device lookup
[19:33:57] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> all proprietary
[19:34:12] <mcr> @Tim, then I'll bet they just try all PSKs until they find one that works.
[19:34:33] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> yes, some do that
[19:34:34] <mcr> I'm talking about code in hostapd.
[19:34:46] <mcr> hostapd is AAA "infrastructure", even if it's all "local"
[19:35:39] <mcr> @Eric, the IETF role is that we own EAP.
[19:35:40] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> JC indeed whatever MADINAS charter will be, the coordination with IEEE & WBA is obviously important
[19:36:09] <Roman Danyliw_web_493> Thanks for that clarity.  To have a dedicated WG for the liaisons suggests a particular volume of work.  What I'm hearing said is that there is a lot of work anticipated.
[19:36:46] <mcr> Roman, I don't think that we need much in the way of new protocols.  Alan's EAP onboarding document would be helpful. Basically, we (the IETF) need to convince the other groups that PSK is dead.
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[19:36:59] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> the MAC addresses allocated by DHCPv6 - are they random somehow? (RFC8947)
[19:37:11] <mcr> Alexandre, DHCPv6 does not allocate MAC addresses.
[19:37:39] <Roman Danyliw_web_493> @mcr: my understanding is that NO new protocol work is being suggested
[19:37:42] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @MCR DHCP allows for MAC allocation in the case of VM host for its VM guestes ;
[19:37:48] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> not MAC addresses then, but maybe link-layer addresses
[19:38:14] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> DHCP is the one problem that I don't think has a solution yet
[19:38:19] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> Identity/AAA is solved
[19:38:33] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> (specifically DHCP reservations)
[19:38:42] <mcr> Roman, I think that we need to write an architecture of how to put our existing things together.
[19:38:43] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> Anyway, this DHCP/MAC is kind of out of topic IMHO (no hat in this chat)
[19:39:11] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> yes I agree DHCP-MAC out of main concern, just wondering
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[19:39:25] <mcr> We need buy-in from WBA and IEEE in order to get a wide variety of vendors and operators onboard.
[19:39:31] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> IMO DHCP is more important than what is being discussed here as it is not a solved problem
[19:39:34] <Roman Danyliw_web_493> @mcr: an architecture is not how I read the charter text.  I also don't follow the scope of the architecture
[19:40:41] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> Indeed, currently, there is no 'protocol work/architecture' plan in the draft charter. But, WG can be re-chartered later of course but this is a different story
[19:40:42] <mcr> I did ask for the link to the charter text on the ML, but I now can't find that, or remember what it said.
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[19:41:22] <Roman Danyliw_web_493> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/madinas/jlQsSGsBgHqnAMTj8pFOV8Gsu_U/
[19:41:33] <Roman Danyliw_web_493> The group will produce the following deliverables:
- An Informational Problem Statement document, including use cases analysis and requirements.
- An Informational MAC Address Randomization analysis document.
- A Best Common Practices document.
[19:41:36] <Carlos Bernardos_web_412> @mcr: you can find the charter on the slides at the meetings material
[19:42:34] <Carlos Bernardos_web_412> I mean the latest version of the charter, including some of the feedback that was discussed on the ML
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[19:43:14] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> I have a Q: Jerome did not mention 802.1 at all, why? I thought 802.1 defines MAC address structure, and its evolution?
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[19:44:08] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> I think it is felt by many that the risk of normal MAC addresses is in the wireless...
[19:44:34] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> but that might be 802.15.4 too and other '802.wireless' than 802.11
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[19:45:08] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> Ethernet is a very heavy user
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[19:46:02] <Juan-Carlos Zúñiga_web_474> 802E was handled by 802.1
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[19:46:19] <Juan-Carlos Zúñiga_web_474> Jerome did mention it
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[19:46:31] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> Thanks JC  :)
[19:46:39] <Juan-Carlos Zúñiga_web_474> 802E gave birth to 802.11bh/bi
[19:46:50] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> Ethernet is heavily used and heavy user of MAC addresses but it requires a mechanical plugging into an RJ45 owned by someone in order to 'snoop', whereas in 'wireless' it is sufficient to listen the air which is apublic good.
[19:47:21] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> on path vs passive
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[19:51:25] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> There is also virtualization and they increase a lot the use of MAC addresses
[19:52:10] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> They may have a similar problem as we have in IETF, 32 bit vs 128 bit IP addresses
[19:52:21] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> I agree virtualization needs identifiers like 48bit numbers represented as x:x:x:x:x:x.  Do these qualify as MAC addresses?
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[19:53:20] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> so software use of MAC addresses as in VMs
[19:54:21] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> But VMs would need to simply generate unique 'MAC' addresses, rather than random, I think.
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[19:55:56] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> I have an issue with the acronym MADINAS, I think it should have included RCM which is the main issue, rigth?
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[19:56:50] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @behcet, isn't it 'bikesheding' ? Let's focus first on the charter then we can think about the name ;-)
[19:56:58] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> if RCM is the main focus...  but MADINAS sounds good, whereas RCMINAS would not sound that good.
[19:57:03] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @Alex: random could be not unique?
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[19:57:34] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> Behcet, there is a difference between random numners and unique numbers.  The first ones ar ehard to generate, whereas the last ones are very easy to make.
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[19:58:07] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> it's hard to make random numbers be unique.
[19:58:17] <Alissa Cooper_web_830> Sorry if this is a naïve question, but is the loss of the global identifier space where you can guarantee uniqueness (no collisions) a problem? How do the variety of device ID schemes that may be on the table to replace the use of MAC address across these various scenarios guarantee global uniqueness at any given point in time? Or is that not a requirement?
[19:58:27] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> I mean collision
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[19:59:20] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @Alissa, agreed!
[19:59:39] <Dave Thaler_web_692> @Alexandre: Studying The RCM Problem (strcmp)
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[20:00:03] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @Alissa I am not sure but I guess that IEEE has defined a scheme similar to the IP-layer DAD
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[20:01:47] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> I'm still struggling to understand why this is an IETF effort
[20:02:22] <Dave Thaler_web_692> the analysis and problem statement do seem overlapping to me
[20:02:27] <Sri Gundavelli_web_547> Global uniqueness is not needed. Local uniqueness is sufficient, as long as we tie the identifier to a stable authenticated identity
[20:02:30] <Jason Weil_web_671> Is Unique Local MAC a thing? mostly joking but not clear between globally unique vs network unique
[20:02:37] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_221> Is it planned to make the contents of IEEE or MBA documents dealing with RCM public ? Otherwise it is a bit frustrating to discuss based on reports from people who could access those documents without the actual source
[20:02:52] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @Eric, yes, I think so
[20:03:36] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_145> ... uniqueness across L2 sounds hard, sounds like something useful to understand.
[20:03:37] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> @Antoine great point, that is critical if this effort moves forward
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[20:04:36] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> "Unique Local MAC"?  Makes think of U-L. Addresses, which did get through at IETF and in deployment.
[20:04:47] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> Most of IEEE standards are public
[20:05:05] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> new ones become after 6 months
[20:05:08] <Ted Hardie_web_111> On the IEEE docs question, do you see what you are looking for here:  https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/documents?is_dcn=DCN%2C%20Title%2C%20Author%20or%20Affiliation&is_group=0rcm ?
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[20:05:28] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_221> OK, if you have a pointer to the actual 802.11bh doc that I can read without hitting a paywall, please be my guest :-)
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[20:05:43] <Benoît Claise_web_550> "Current state of affair" instead of "Problem Statement" makes sense. Now, we can always debate whether such a thing is a document/a WIKI/something else
[20:05:52] <Jason Weil_web_671> That's what made me think about it @Alexandre
[20:06:13] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> but, does one have to leave one's postal address in a web form before reading the IEEE document?  (a privacy issue of a privacy issue)
[20:06:52] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_221> @Ted I can see meeting minutes, but I think IEEE standards have a more concise form
[20:07:24] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> Draft IEEE docs are in mentor server and anyone with an IEEE account can access
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[20:08:09] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> earlier I tried to get an IEEE account and it requested my postal address.
[20:08:50] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_221> @Behcet good to know, but I don't have one
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[20:09:05] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @benoit not all I-D end up as a published RFC as you know :-)
[20:09:06] <Luigi Iannone_web_229> I wonder whether the last document should renamed "recommandation" since at the end recommandations could be how to use existing solution (may be developed by other SDOs) or the final recommandation can be "we need a solution that does X"
[20:09:13] <Robert Moskowitz> So they flood your snail mail with ieee member offers!
[20:09:14] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @benoit but I like the name
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[20:10:24] <Robert Moskowitz> But I am an IEEE senior member, so I no longer get all those intro snail mails.  ;)
[20:10:36] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @Bob, yes but after a while it stops
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[20:10:53] <Benoît Claise_web_550> @Eric. Make it clear in the charter then, to set the right expectations.
[20:11:19] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @Benoit: point taken
[20:11:26] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_221> @Behcet funny that you have to provide private info to work on a privacy-enhancing tech
[20:11:54] <Robert Moskowitz> left hand/right hand miss match.
[20:12:08] <Robert Moskowitz> mismatch.
[20:12:56] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @Antoine agreed!
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[20:14:08] <Robert Moskowitz> note that some ieee efforts are closed to a specific set of members only.  Their work is really private and their docs are only available within their members.  Really a problem at times (like power wireline did with their version of networking).
[20:14:26] <Sri Gundavelli_web_547> "Client and the Service Provider" ... is one scenario ..for other non-service oriented architectures ..we should clarify to include those enterprise scenarios
[20:14:46] <Sri Gundavelli_web_547> @Eric
[20:14:54] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> Bob M. I agree with the problem of some IEEE draft docs no tbeing available to interested readers.
[20:15:17] <Jason Weil_web_671> One example of a solution in the IEEE is an 802 node could request a unique ID from another 802 node. If something like this emerges in IEEE, a higher layer protocol or at least BCP to something that already exists may be needed to determine and populate this field. (But this requires waiting to see what IEEE comes up with first)
[20:15:27] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> great question Roman!
[20:15:47] <Roman Danyliw_web_493> I apologize, I wasn't at the first BOF
[20:16:11] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> Issue with short term WG: in IETF nothing is short term
[20:16:27] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_821> (giggle)
[20:16:28] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> "One example of a solution in the IEEE is an 802 node could request a unique ID from another 802 node." - it's happening somehow in ad-hoc mode when they come up with a MAC address having the role of an ephemeral ESSID.
[20:17:15] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> They will break based on how people have deployed technologies today
[20:17:21] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> that's an important distinction
[20:17:31] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> Easy button deployment decisions have consequences
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[20:17:41] <Bob Hinden_web_659> +1
[20:18:00] <Roman Danyliw_web_493> Thanks
[20:18:21] <Roman Danyliw_web_493> It might be helpful to clearly explain who is the intended consumer of the guidance
[20:18:31] <Tim Cappalli_web_251> ^^ +1
[20:18:56] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @Roman if not mistaken, some are listed in the I-D
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[20:20:36] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> funny how one has to act even when not her raising hands.
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[20:22:09] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_821> I don't think "solve" is the right formulation, I'd prefer "possible to work with".
[20:22:11] <Cullen Jennings_web_791> interesting 80 people in chat and 30 people did the poll
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[20:22:14] <Pascal Thubert_web_881> sorry I cannot find how to raise hand
[20:22:29] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> the yellow flashing bow on the top right with a bar graph
[20:22:30] <Roman Danyliw_web_493> @pascal, click on the "chart" looking icon.
[20:22:39] <Joerg Ott_web_915> does it make sense to split clarity and scope from being solvable and useful to solve? Just to understand what the issue is?
[20:22:42] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> actually there are 89 particpants
[20:22:44] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> 36 participants out of 89 participants... participants and participants...
[20:23:02] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> this is a question of RFC 5434
[20:23:06] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> ;-)
[20:23:10] <Ted Hardie_web_942> I think we have time for Eric's point in this case, but I think the tooling is being explained differently in different sessions.  In many I've listed to, the explanation has been  no opinion is "don't answer the poll" and "do not raise hand" means the negative.  It might be nice to adjust the wording to be clearer on this.
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[20:24:01] <Joerg Ott_web_915> @eric: yeah. but if the answer is not clear, then it maybe worthwhile digging further
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[20:24:55] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @joerg: open for it as it could give more information
[20:25:25] <Robert Moskowitz> In past times, IEEE 802 has made documents open to IETF.  Most noteworthy is 802.1X for working with EAP.  So this should be solveable.
[20:26:50] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> in a real room I can see who raises hands, here I cant.
[20:26:51] <Erik Kline_web_258> (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/browse/standards/get-program/page/series?id=68 I think)
[20:27:01] <Dan Romascanu_web_206> A mechanism can be put in place to have individuals access work-in-progress documents using the IETF-IEEE coordination team. Speak to Russ Housley and Dorothy Stanley.
[20:28:08] <Michael Jenkins_web_583> @Alexandre - in a real room this would be a hum
[20:28:18] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_221> @Eric for now, neither 802.11bh nor 802.11bi are available there
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[20:28:31] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> It seems like it is going to be a small WG
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[20:28:50] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> we see how voting is different during these times in action
[20:29:10] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> few BoFs if any did hums, right?  (or I miss the rememberings)
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[20:30:05] <Jerome Henry_web_886> @Antoine, 11bi and 11bh have not published any draft yet (they just formed a couple of months ago)but the contributions are available here (filter by group name) https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/documents
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[20:30:22] <Ted Hardie_web_942> Humming at BoFs was pretty common in my experience.
[20:30:33] <Jerome Henry_web_886> I am humming to myself
[20:30:40] <Dan Romascanu_web_206> it's always an amended charter, the iesg can also introduce wording changes
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[20:32:01] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> donot raise hand means against I think
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[20:33:04] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> This is better than humming, more precise counting
[20:33:14] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> too precise
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[20:35:03] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> now late comers
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[20:35:35] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> even humming gives some indication about who hums around, and who is silent, some times.
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[20:36:19] <mcr> when it comes to charters, the IESG performs on-path attacks that change the text :-)
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[20:37:03] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_221> @Jerome Thanks for the pointer.  https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/documents?is_dcn=802.11bh Don't point to a draft, yet
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[20:37:54] <Joey Salazar_web_446> Thank you all
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[20:37:55] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> @mcr: oh :-O community has to agree as well ;)
[20:37:56] <Jerome Henry_web_886> @ Antoine, correct, neither group has published a draft yet
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[20:37:59] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_473> thank you!
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[20:38:01] <Éric Vyncke_web_388> Thank you chairs and presenters
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[20:38:20] <Tero Kivinen_web_351> Drafts are never in the mentor, they are always on the password protected private area, but the presentations and contributions going to the draft are in mentor.
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[20:38:38] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_221> OK
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[20:38:56] <Antoine Fressancourt_web_221> Sorry for not being used to the IEEE way of working
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[20:39:57] <Tero Kivinen_web_351> When the IEEE document is converted to draft form then it must be put on the private area, as IEEE wants to protect its interests. It do sell the drafts out to companies etc for early access, and then of course you can purhace the final version when it is out. After it has been published it will appear to the get IEEE program after 6 months.
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