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[21:16:02] <Glenn Parsons> We'll start in 5 minutes...
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[21:21:40] <tonyhansen> I'll tag team with someone
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[21:23:10] <tonyhansen> glenn: thanks for the progress made, and for those who came to the interim mtg
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[21:23:26] <tonyhansen> glenn&eric: keep it up
[21:23:41] <RandyG> Chairs: interim was very successful; quality of updated drafts since has been very good
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[21:24:45] <resnick> Agenda:
[21:24:51] <resnick> Charter/liaisons
[21:24:55] <resnick> documents
[21:25:01] <resnick> - goals
[21:25:04] <resnick> - pull
[21:25:13] <resnick> -imap/submit
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[21:25:33] <resnick> -imap profile
[21:25:37] <resnick> - mms mapping
[21:25:41] <resnick> - notifications
[21:25:52] <resnick> Other extension proposals
[21:25:58] <resnick> Next Steps/Milestones
[21:26:01] <resnick> End
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[21:26:34] <tonyhansen> glenn: wants to focus on issues, not revisiting dead arguments
[21:26:48] <resnick> Philip G: When will we look at the charter?
[21:26:59] <resnick> Glenn: Beginning and at the end.
[21:27:13] <tonyhansen> charter:
[21:27:19] <resnick> On the web site.
[21:27:37] <resnick> <http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/lemonade-charter.html>
[21:28:02] <tonyhansen> goals, imap4 extensions for vm playback, imap4/submit extensions for forwarding, imap4 extensions & profile for diverse endpoints, server2server notification protocol, xlation to/from other msg systems
[21:29:36] <tonyhansen> report on liaisons w/ 3gpp & oma
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[21:30:00] <tonyhansen> liaisons were sent to mailing list
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[21:30:55] <resnick> And posted to the IETF liaison page.
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[21:33:07] <resnick> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaisons.cgi
[21:34:18] <resnick> Model picture shown.
[21:34:39] <resnick> What we're doing would be an alternative "MM1 interface" in the 3GPP model.
[21:34:58] <tonyhansen> on to requirements draft ... Kue Wong d-i-l-goals-03
[21:35:08] <RandyG> Potentially an upgrade from the existing M-IMAP MM1 in 3GPP2
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[21:36:38] <tonyhansen> content of doc is mostly stable since ietf57/vienna
[21:37:27] <tonyhansen> added 1) lines referencing ivm profile activity/goals, server2client notification
[21:38:03] <tonyhansen> 2) relationships w/ 3gpp, etc.
[21:38:27] <tonyhansen> format changes -- nits removal and conversion to xml2rfc
[21:39:37] <tonyhansen> ? on moving references to INFORMATIVE rather than NORMATIVE
[21:41:27] <tonyhansen> send him comments w/ suggested replacement text
[21:41:40] <resnick> STRONGLY requested.
[21:42:21] <resnick> WG last call coming after revision
[21:42:38] <tonyhansen> next up: PULL
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[21:43:24] <tonyhansen> BURL: Chris Newman
[21:43:45] <tonyhansen> see draft-newman-lemonade-burl-01.txt
[21:44:57] <tonyhansen> recent changes: detailed security considerations, updates RFC 3463 w/ new errors (x.6.6 and x.7.8), response codes examples
[21:46:36] <tonyhansen> interactions of other standards: 8bitmime, punt or support binary mime, punt or support unlabeled 8-bit headers, BURL and BDAT may be mixed, PIPELINING + BURL works on entire transaction
[21:48:59] <RandyG> Discussion on "punt" (reject message) / convert versus "don't ask don't tell"
[21:49:14] <RandyG> For unlabelled 8-bit data in headers
[21:49:22] <resnick> 8bitmime is required because imap servers can't downgrade to 7bit.
[21:49:38] <resnick> But binary is not required because imap servers must be able to downgrade to 8bit.
[21:51:21] <RandyG> Discussion on BURL + BDATA
[21:51:40] <RandyG> Difference between description of use together in burl draft vs mention in profile draft
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[21:53:34] <resnick> Greg worried about the combo. Will bring issue to the list.
[21:53:36] <RandyG> Comment that text allowing BDAT and BURL anywhere in transaction makes the server more complicated (Greg)
[21:53:58] <RandyG> Ned points out that disallowing this would make the server more complicated (must check which commands have already been used)
[21:54:27] <tonyhansen> simplifications: base BURL only supports imap: URLs
[21:54:46] <tonyhansen> URL is resolved before status code is returned by submit server to eliminate race-condition issues
[21:55:13] <tonyhansen> pete: any interaction with pipelining
[21:55:19] <tonyhansen> Chris: yes, and handled in doc
[21:55:37] <tonyhansen> todo: need to fix refs to BDAT and PIPELINING
[21:55:44] <tonyhansen> todo: require SMTP AUTH explicitly
[21:57:01] <resnick> SUBMIT will require SMTP AUTH, so perhaps refer to it.
[21:57:15] <tonyhansen> main open issue: split auth into separate argument?
[21:57:42] <tonyhansen> pro: removes concern about leakage of URLAUTH URLS into other contexts; cons: more complex, requires change to URLAUTH draft
[21:58:21] <RandyG> Ted suggests the security concern over leakage is much less an issue for imap urls
[21:58:42] <RandyG> Ted says he will reread the message
[21:59:23] <tonyhansen> chris is done
[21:59:24] <RandyG> Conclusion: issue resolved (no need to change) unless Ted re-raises the issue
[22:00:07] <RandyG> Chairs: Greg to put his issues on the list; Chris will update the draft; then go to WGLC
[22:00:25] <RandyG> (unless additional revs needed based on comments)
[22:01:39] <tonyhansen> glenn: URLAUTH
[22:01:39] <resnick> URLAUTH
[22:01:53] <resnick> Two issues:
[22:02:08] <resnick> Splitting off (a la the earlier discussion in Chris's document)
[22:02:23] <resnick> Uses in other contexts
[22:02:34] <RandyG> also groups
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[22:03:50] <resnick> URLs can expire.
[22:04:20] <resnick> How is this meaningful to the server?
[22:05:05] <resnick> It is because it is honored by the IMAP server (due to its "signature")
[22:06:23] <resnick> Alexey discusses the splitting issue.
[22:06:44] <RandyG> Alexey: argument for splitting key is that it would permit non-lemonade uses such as unsigned url to grant access to entire mailbox
[22:07:08] <RandyG> Chris suggests this isn't worth making the document more complex
[22:08:06] <RandyG> Discussion on techniques and complexity
[22:08:19] <tonyhansen> glenn: CATENATE
[22:08:34] <RandyG> Chairs: need updated urlauth (Alexey and/or Chris to help)
[22:08:35] <tonyhansen> pete: other records to be added
[22:08:43] <tonyhansen> that's "other return codes"
[22:08:59] <tonyhansen> pete: example(s) to be added
[22:09:15] <tonyhansen> main issue: the drafts (FCC) problem
[22:09:36] <RandyG> Pete: drafts problem: client uploads draft using catenate, then needs to edit some of the text
[22:09:58] <RandyG> Pete: client wants to only edit small text, not 20 GB content that was added via catenate
[22:10:45] <RandyG> Pete: one technique is to not use catenate during draft stage (use references instead) then use catenate when all done
[22:11:02] <RandyG> Pete: other technique would be to use annotate
[22:11:14] <RandyG> Pete: perhaps others ways, such as magic headers
[22:11:56] <RandyG> Cyrus: smart imap client will not send catenated content to client when client fetches
[22:12:49] <RandyG> Discussion on this issue
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[22:13:33] <RandyG> Discussion: this may cause user to go over quota if server copies content
[22:14:00] <tonyhansen> pete will update, then send to WGLC, asks for deadline
[22:14:07] <RandyG> Pete to update draft to say how to handle the draft issue
[22:14:30] <hardie> Shall we have a pool?
[22:15:16] <tonyhansen> he he
[22:15:34] <tonyhansen> glenn: CHANNEL
[22:15:37] <resnick> Channel
[22:15:53] <resnick> Barry: I don't know what's going on now,
[22:15:59] <tonyhansen> barry will follow up w/ lyndon
[22:16:00] <RandyG> Channel needs urlauth, not in this version
[22:16:03] <resnick> but I'll follow up and pick it up if need be.
[22:17:11] <resnick> Greg: Current mechanism needs to be replaced by URLAUTH
[22:17:53] <resnick> Randy: Are we going to include content adaptation in this draft?
[22:18:20] <resnick> Alexey: This could be added to IMAP URL spec.
[22:18:30] <resnick> Alexey will take a check.
[22:18:56] <resnick> Ted: Why is this tied to the FETCH?
[22:19:25] <RandyG> Glenn: part of channel, not urlauth
[22:19:34] <resnick> (Eric, not Glenn)
[22:19:48] <RandyG> (sorry)
[22:21:26] <resnick> (The scribes all pay attention to figure out what the answer is.....)
[22:24:51] <RandyG> Discussion on media conversion
[22:26:15] <RandyG> Discussion on client asking for conversion vs server deciding on its own
[22:26:27] <RandyG> Much disagreement with server doing anything on its own
[22:27:21] <tonyhansen> (shades of OPES)
[22:28:18] <RandyG> Discussion on two types of media conversion: streaming vs document conversion (image scaling or word-to-html)
[22:28:27] <tonyhansen> glenn: charter on CHANNEL specifically for voice mail streaming outside of IMAP protocol
[22:28:36] <tonyhansen> media conversion is a nice idea, but ...
[22:29:15] <tonyhansen> glenn: even then, tho, you'll want code conversino
[22:29:16] <RandyG> Greg: even in voice mail streaming you often need to do codec conversions
[22:29:56] <RandyG> Discussion on interim meeting for media conversion
[22:30:45] <RandyG> Eric: why is ftp in channel?
[22:30:57] <RandyG> Barry: it is a good examle
[22:31:01] <RandyG> (example)
[22:31:23] <tonyhansen> glenn: concerned that media conversion will become a wedge
[22:31:54] <tonyhansen> can we include codec conversion, then consider media conversion?
[22:32:10] <tonyhansen> action item to greg
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[22:32:30] <RandyG> Barry: if you hate ftp example, send something else
[22:32:53] <tonyhansen> eric: refs old doc of use cases
[22:33:01] <tonyhansen> glenn: FUTURE DELIVERY -> Greg
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[22:33:19] <RandyG> Greg: no changes from previous version (essentially done for two years)
[22:33:22] <tonyhansen> no changes to doc, waiting for submit
[22:33:58] <RandyG> Greg: document to be updated to current nits and published
[22:34:04] <RandyG> Chairs: then ready for WGLC
[22:36:03] <tonyhansen> comments on xml2rfc
[22:36:28] <RandyG> Conversion to xml not required, but may be strongly encouraged in some cases
[22:38:00] <resnick> Message Context is not necessary.
[22:38:10] <resnick> Can get it in a regular FETCH as a header.
[22:39:25] <resnick> Therefore: Punting document.
[22:39:40] <hardie> Drop kick me, IMAP, through the goal posts of life....
[22:40:09] <tonyhansen> glenn: quick reconnect
[22:40:28] <resnick> Corby Watson: Open issues.
[22:40:52] <resnick> 1. Is it worth it?
[22:41:09] <resnick> - Able to reduce from 20K to 2K bytes.
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[22:41:33] <resnick> 2. Conflicts with IR document? Should be OK/
[22:41:41] <resnick> 3. Interaction w/ notifications?
[22:42:44] <RandyG> Cyrus: this document oversimplifies the problem
[22:42:51] <resnick> Cyrus: Main issue is how to re-establish sync (Checkpoints, etc.)
[22:42:59] <RandyG> Cyrus: servers don't know exactly which messages client received, etc.
[22:44:55] <tonyhansen> problems with mobility
[22:45:38] <RandyG> discussion on temporary loss of connectivity versus roaming to different provider
[22:45:50] <RandyG> discussion on session id versus profile
[22:47:00] <RandyG> discussion on why this an application level function vs transport
[22:47:19] <RandyG> discussion: are all applications which may run on cell phones going to have to solve this?
[22:47:53] <tonyhansen> jutta: shouldn't we be pushing CONDSTORE instead?
[22:47:53] <RandyG> discussion: is this work needed?
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[22:49:19] <RandyG> Cyrus: bigger issue is quick way to resynch cache; condstore does this for flags but not everything else
[22:50:04] <RandyG> Eric: why is session id not an opaque string?
[22:51:43] <tonyhansen> glenn: needs more list discussion
[22:52:18] <tonyhansen> eric: reliable delivery
[22:53:33] <tonyhansen> BURL is sent, takes long time to get 200 OK response, what can we do?
[22:53:46] <tonyhansen> wants to get interim responses
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[22:53:57] <tonyhansen> eric: lemonade imap profile
[22:54:02] <resnick> Stephane:
[22:54:05] <tonyhansen> stefan
[22:54:13] <tonyhansen> stephane?
[22:54:30] <RandyG> This was discussed at the interim: need for submit server to send interim responses saying "still working on it" between end of data and completion
[22:54:53] <resnick> - Pull model (BURL + URLAUTH + CATENATE)
[22:55:18] <resnick> based on draft-crispin-lemonade-pull
[22:55:50] <tonyhansen> PULL == "forward without download"
[22:56:56] <tonyhansen> - Mobile optimizations
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[22:58:06] <tonyhansen> serve2client notiications, command extensions, optional http bindings, fast reconnect
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[22:59:41] <tonyhansen> discussion: isn't there going to be compression somehow?
[22:59:46] <RandyG> Discussion on use of TLS for compression instead of IMAP extension
[22:59:55] <RandyG> This was discussed at the interim
[23:00:36] <RandyG> Ned: TLS with null cypher for compression has been approved
[23:01:17] <RandyG> Discussion on how compression should be done, and if we want one or many techniques
[23:01:35] <RandyG> Pete asks if we want discussion on how to edit draft in catenate or in profile
[23:01:47] <RandyG> Chairs: catenate
[23:02:50] <RandyG> Profile document should be very simple and impose requirements on lemonade clients and servers
[23:03:34] <RandyG> Q: should profile be broken down by features, or list transactions
[23:04:52] <RandyG> suggestion to use vpim profile (rfc 3801) and ibm profile (in rfc ed queue) approach
[23:05:01] <tonyhansen> IVM
[23:05:23] <resnick> Moving on to MMS Mapping document
[23:06:32] <resnick> Ready for last call.
[23:06:35] <tonyhansen> randy: updated version ready for WGLC
[23:07:03] <tonyhansen> updated: mapping reports, Importance vs x-priority, more detail in security considerations
[23:07:15] <tonyhansen> specifies mapping between MMS and email
[23:07:54] <tonyhansen> MMS uses X-MMS-* instead of 2821 envelope and 2822 to/cc/from
[23:08:10] <tonyhansen> allows email to be exchanged w/ MMS systems
[23:08:42] <tonyhansen> MMS has sender address hiding, reply charging
[23:08:52] <tonyhansen> will be proposed standard
[23:09:52] <tonyhansen> glenn: send comments to randy + list
[23:10:34] <RandyG> Greg volunteers to review it
[23:12:28] <tonyhansen> will invite OMA to comment during WGLC
[23:12:51] <tonyhansen> pete: not OMA, but 3GPP
[23:13:00] <RandyG> when WGLC occurs, we can send LSs to 3GPP/2 about this (OMA currently only does MM1, while this is Mm3)
[23:13:16] <tonyhansen> ted: give them heads up >before< the WGLC
[23:13:17] <RandyG> (3GPP and 3GPP2)
[23:13:23] <tonyhansen> Glenn: NOTIFICATIONS
[23:14:17] <tonyhansen> s2s requirements, will be WGLC
[23:15:31] <tonyhansen> wait on protocol until after requirements are done
[23:16:06] <tonyhansen> s2c requirements: individual drafts, not in lemonade charter
[23:16:32] <hardie> decktor's draft has many non-ascii characters. At some point, they need to be pulled out.
[23:17:53] <tonyhansen> greg: call it something else, not s2c notifications
[23:18:27] <RandyG> Greg: server-server state changes, not notifications (which suggests sip notify, etc)
[23:19:04] <RandyG> (this is s2s draft)
[23:19:11] <RandyG> (now discussing s2c document)
[23:21:30] <resnick> Randy: Lots of notifications can be a really bad thing.
[23:21:56] <resnick> Randy: Perhaps we need a different sort of "coordinated polling" service for clients.
[23:22:06] <resnick> (That sound right Randy)
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[23:24:01] <resnick> (Correction above: Corby *Wilson*)
[23:25:08] <hardie> (b)?
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[23:27:49] <tonyhansen> glenn/eric: other extensions
[23:28:18] <tonyhansen> eric: please subscribe to imapext list as well as lemonade list
[23:29:21] <tonyhansen> glenn: all docs need I-D nits, IPR and boilerplate reviews
[23:30:10] <tonyhansen> millstone guidelines: revisions after IETF 60, due next monday
[23:30:28] <tonyhansen> WGLC starting aug 23
[23:30:53] <tonyhansen> revisions before ietf61, wglc or new revision by oct 18
[23:31:02] <tonyhansen> iesg submission after ietf61 due in Dec
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[23:31:38] <tonyhansen> aug 9 => 16, aug 23 => 30
[23:31:57] <tonyhansen> aug 30 => aug 23
[23:32:45] <tonyhansen> greg: do we want an interim mtg?
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[23:41:03] <tonyhansen> milestones will be updated in charter
[23:41:11] <tonyhansen> higher confidence on dates
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[23:44:00] <tonyhansen> supplemental WG page: flyingfox.snowshore.com/i-d/lemonade
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