Friday, March 25, 2022< ^ >
Meetecho has set the subject to: LAMPS at IETF 112
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[08:50:24] <Massimiliano Pala_web_588> Good Morning Everybody!
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[08:55:22] <Tim Hollebeek_web_468> Good morning!  Wish I could be there in person and see you all again!
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[09:00:20] <Rich Salz_web_918> Thanks for being the stand-in chair for so many meetings, Alexey!
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[09:02:43] has set the subject to: LAMPS at IETF 113
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[09:03:42] <dkg> kaduk: it worked
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[09:04:04] <> woohoo!  The in-meetecho chat doesn't show the body of the message I
used to do it, interestingly.
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[09:11:17] <Roman Danyliw_web_891> Yes, PS
[09:11:26] <Tim Hollebeek_web_468> Always nice when someone hides the bodies for you.
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[09:13:50] <Sean Turner_web_991> So many enrollment protocols to progress! :)
[09:14:30] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> +1 for "whole new body of work"
[09:14:37] <> Sean: I dunno, maybe we should try to really fix the issues in the
enrollment protocols by writing a new enrollment protocol ;)
[09:14:52] <Sean Turner_web_991> @kaduk: mwhahaaha
[09:14:55] <Roman Danyliw_web_891> @tero - yes that would be the process
[09:15:07] <Massimiliano Pala_web_588> You need to enroll in the enrollment protocol mailing list first...
[09:15:08] <Yoav Nir_web_542> @kaduk: isn't that ACME?  or EST?
[09:15:12] <Sean Turner_web_991> I mean we should really move p10. Maybe I will do that ;)
[09:15:18] <> The IESG can run a last-call on a "status-change document" to promote
an existing RFC from PS to IS
[09:15:38] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> "Move CMP to IS" almost sounds like a charterable chunk of work ...
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[09:15:45] <Thom Wiggers_web_501> I think Tero is using his phone so he doesn’t see chat, fyi
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[09:15:53] <> I think
is the documentation for such "status-change document"s
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[09:16:21] <Roman Danyliw_web_891> @russ -- adding this story of "CMP Updates" is first; then maybe a bis for IS later in the shepherd write-up will motivate the current editorial style
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[09:17:07] <Roman Danyliw_web_891> @thom-wiggers: hadn't noticed.  thanks
[09:17:10] <Russ Housley_web_130> @roman: Ack
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[09:18:56] <Massimiliano Pala_web_588> is there a registry we need to maintain?
[09:18:59] <Sean Turner_web_991> @roman: Can we move RFC 2986, which is Informational, to IS?
[09:19:26] <> > it is not a candidate for any level of internet standard
[09:19:39] <dkg> why can't future expansion be to change …/.well-known/cmp/… to …/.well-known/cmp2/… ?
[09:19:54] <Sean Turner_web_991> @Massimiliiano: At this point, I beleieve it is only the "top": /cmp and /est
[09:20:06] <Tim Hollebeek_web_468> yeah, that was my question.  the previous label is the expansion point
[09:20:13] <> The .well-known DEs might give you a funny look (I suppose we could
[09:20:41] <Tim Hollebeek_web_468> could even do /est/v1/arbitrarylabel
[09:20:46] <Tim Hollebeek_web_468> so it's versioned
[09:21:16] <Alexey Melnikov_web_386> Option #4 (not using .well-known) is violating HTTP recommendations, so this is not going to be good.
[09:21:53] <Sean Turner_web_991> You can avoid using .well-known, but expect a fight.
[09:23:15] <dkg> i think the .well-known DEs will give a funny look anyway, given the "discovery problems" that mcr just raised.
[09:23:20] <Sean Turner_web_991> I am good with that
[09:23:35] <Yoav Nir_web_542>
[09:24:21] <Roman Danyliw_web_891> @sean: I'm pretty sure no, RFC2986 got published informational.  The upgrade to IS is only possible if you start as a PS.
[09:24:50] <Sean Turner_web_991> I can work with Magnus/Burt to do that.
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[09:28:13] <Roman Danyliw_web_891> @hendrik: actions caught for reviews or re-reviews.
[09:28:46] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> Oh lord, Sean's going full Santa!
[09:29:00] <dkg> are you sure it's not karl marx?
[09:30:20] <Rich Salz_web_918> "why not both?"
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[09:32:45] <dkg> i agree with Alexey
[09:33:11] <dkg> it's ok russ, carry on
[09:33:13] <dkg> we have time
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[09:33:59] <dkg> i didn't read the draft yet then ! :P
[09:34:15] <MichaelRichardson> I think that Santa is probably some kind of Marxist.  
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[09:35:07] <MichaelRichardson> @Roman, so if we RFC2986bis, then we could actually publish as PS.  Should we do that?  I guess I can start a thread.
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[09:37:00] <Massimiliano Pala_web_588> CRL delegate signer.
[09:37:08] <Corey Bonnell_web_898> CRL issuer
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[09:38:13] <Roman Danyliw_web_891> @mkr - I don't know the history of why informational was chosen for RFC2986, but if we make a bis, it could be PS (from a process perspective)
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[09:39:52] <Sean Turner_web_991> We are just trying to drive the average time to RFC down ;)
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[09:40:07] <> Going back a ways to the CMP well-known URI question, I did send Mark
Nottingham an email to try to get his thoughts explicitly.
[09:40:13] <Roman Danyliw_web_891> I hope this doc is clean so we can pull off sending  a -00 to the IESG?
[09:41:32] <Sean Turner_web_991> @Roman: I think it is clean, but we'll see what the reviewers find.
[09:41:49] <> Do I need to take a look at something? ;)
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[09:46:13] <Sean Turner_web_991> With all your free time, you can check out: :)
[09:47:09] <> Oh, but it's already the -00 ... so that means I should *not* look
[09:47:54] <Tero Kivinen_web_261> This sounds like having some discussion with the would be useful. There might be more of those implementors present that can actually do something for this.
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[09:48:52] <Rich Salz_web_918> showing algorithm diffs as python fragments is cool!
[09:49:13] <Sean Turner_web_991> @Ben ;)
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[09:51:15] <Russ Housley_web_130> @dkg: Getting rid of legacy will take a really long time.  Consider pine as one example
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[09:53:21] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> "There's nothing more permanent then a temporary solution"
[09:53:26] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> *than
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[10:01:44] <Rich Salz_web_918> hahahaa
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[10:03:58] <Jonathan Hammell_web_937> Would a failure to find "Thursday dinner plans" in the obscured headers not work?  Adding "**spam**" or whitespace before/after would not affect that.
[10:04:14] <Yoav Nir_web_542> Definitely not when you open your mail application and have to go over 100 emails, most of which are irrelevant. That's not a use case for careful inspection.
[10:04:16] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> I feel like all 5 of them are in this room ..
[10:07:17] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> @dkg Naīvely, you could ignore the plaintext version if there's an encrypted version, but I suppose the attack you need to prevent is that Bob and Frank see different content for the same email?
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[10:09:54] <justus> maybe the inner (protected) header could indicate that the outside version was obscured by the sender?
[10:10:57] <Rich Salz_web_918> agreed: impressive detail dkg&team
[10:12:40] <Sean Turner_web_991> we need to get pink shoes. Then I can always be in the box.
[10:13:12] <Ludovic Perret_web_749> julien
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[10:14:11] <Yoav Nir_web_542> ASN.1 requires trigger warnings regardless of who made it
[10:14:30] <Christian Veenman_web_248> Agreed :)
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[10:17:10] <> Did "we" consider a short RFC that Updates: ACP to note that the
CSR/attributes usage is believed to be "wrong" (not in that phrasing)?
[10:18:13] <cw-ietf> the value field needs a tag
[10:20:42] <> (RFC 8295 cites PKCS#12 to pull out the number Sean is looking for)
[10:21:13] <> oops, reading on it cites a pile of PKCS, so disregard
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[10:23:34] <dkg> nice squirrel
[10:26:15] <Rich Salz_web_918> "nice squirrel" is an oxymoron, Daniel.
[10:26:17] <MichaelRichardson> But, at least reading RFC8295 is what we need to do.
[10:26:31] <Massimiliano Pala_web_592> (who is "we"?)
[10:26:45] <Bas Westerbaan_web_236> Many of the AES variants are not meant to be used in practice and are less safe than you might expect. (Eg for Kyber and Dilithium)
[10:26:50] <> s/nice/very representative/
[10:26:59] <MichaelRichardson> the CSR attributes update design team....
[10:27:19] <Sean Turner_web_991> @massimiliano: I believe it's a group of ACP implementers
[10:28:22] <Thom Wiggers_web_455> Why could the 3 variants of Dilithium not just get different oids
[10:28:29] <MichaelRichardson> well, at least David and I are ACP/RFC8994/RFC8995 implementers, and Dan who has other deployed EST stuff.
[10:28:34] <Massimiliano Pala_web_592> prameters?
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[10:29:56] <Russ Housley_web_130> As you will see in the next few talks, each algorithm and parameter set will get a separate OID.  Thus, parameters are always absent.  The OID tells all of that.
[10:30:11] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> but if a legacy system nether supports a PQ algorithm, nor does it support that size (ex.: pub key buffers cap at 200,000 kb), then so what?
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[10:30:55] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> ... if you've gotta patch it to add PQ crypto lib support, then you can patch the buffer limits at the same time.
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[10:31:11] <Sean Turner_web_991> That's the CAT pic extension
[10:31:24] <Roman Danyliw_web_916> OIDs for greasing for certificates?
[10:31:39] <Sean Turner_web_991> 3709 put the cat pic in ;)
[10:31:58] <dkg> i'm out of the queue because that was my question: are we talking about private keys or public keys.  sounds like he's focusing on private keys
[10:32:24] <Bas Westerbaan_web_236> related to private key question on a different rfc:
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[10:33:52] <Massimiliano Pala_web_592> That is what I feared - exactly as reported, when I implemented our own code I would have really liked that we could use OID + SecLevel as parameters ... so, I did wrap the current approach and it really helped the practical aspects of working with the keys (especially for ease of use/display for the final user). It is unfortunate we will have to type so much more in our code... hehehehe... when we will add hash-n-sign to the mix... prepare your copy&paste capabilities....
[10:34:23] <Sean Turner_web_991> @dkg: Will send an email, but I think your example I-Ds looks good WRT the KU selections.
[10:34:23] <Bas Westerbaan_web_236> I wouldn't call it private-key compression, but rather deterministic key regeneration
[10:34:38] <Sean Turner_web_991> @bas nice!
[10:34:56] <Tim Hollebeek_web_468> sounds like a synonym for lossless compression
[10:35:19] <Tim Hollebeek_web_468> which is a property that's essential in this case anyway :)
[10:35:34] <Bas Westerbaan_web_236> That's really bad. The Kyber and Dilithium AES variants are not as safe as the claimed level!
[10:35:42] <John Gray_web_515> We did a research project a couple years ago and added Megabytes of data into certificate and watched some stuff blow up, but surprisingly a lot of things continued to work...
[10:37:02] <Yoav Nir_web_542> A lot of things copied their x509 library from some library like OpenSSL.  There's not all that many different x509 implementations out there.
[10:37:30] <> > a lot of things copied their x509 library from ... OpenSSL
"they chose poorly"
[10:38:05] <Yoav Nir_web_542> Using OpenSSL >>> rolling your own
[10:38:22] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> @dkg (self-correction) I think he mentioned that it's not the endpoint-agent itself that's the problem, it's the transport layers to get the keys to the endpoint agent.
[10:40:03] <Russ Housley_web_130> We have 20 minutes left in the meeting.  Need to let the speaker get to their key point.  Then, it is clear that we will need an virtual interim meeting
[10:40:16] <Sean Turner_web_991> @Russ +1
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[10:40:50] <Rich Salz_web_918> IBM has a huge deployed base in the financial biz, and they want a way to pass around long keys.
[10:41:14] <Rich Salz_web_918> Like, do you want your CCard company to be quantum-safe? :)
[10:41:26] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> @dkg in the paper my colleague John Gray posted, see Table 3 on p. 10: we found that Firefox and OpenSSL have buffer issues; but easily fixed with a recompile.
[10:41:55] <Massimiliano Pala_web_592> There are many protocols where there are packet size limitations that are hard to change (maybe implemented within chipsets) - compression might help this use-case, I guess.
[10:41:57] <dkg> Mike: right, and they'll need a recompile to incorporate the new algorithms anyway,  think
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[10:42:21] <Christian Veenman_web_248> So if I understand correctly it's basically: Compressing keys so that these legacy platforms can handle the size vs having these legacy platforms fixing the max private key size issue
[10:42:36] <dkg> (unless you're talking about, for example, a libnss upgrade behind the scenes that firefox is unaware of, but i think most firefox implementations ship with their own copy of libnss)
[10:42:36] <Christian Veenman_web_248> Or am I wrong?
[10:42:50] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> I guess the bigger issue is, for example, if the app DB that needs to hold the keys does not have wide enough columns.
[10:43:02] <dkg> Christian -- that's what it sounds like to me.
[10:43:10] <Massimiliano Pala_web_592> Basically, buying time before you need to redesign your system.
[10:43:29] <Rich Salz_web_918> "One does not simply redesign a mainframe"
[10:43:34] <dkg> sounds like inserting a bunch of complexity into the entire interoperable ecosystem for the sake of not fiddling with the legacy bits
[10:43:36] <> What was that line from earlier..."there is nothing more permanent
than a temporary solution"?
[10:43:37] <Yoav Nir_web_542> Mainframes are for the most part running updated software. There's a lot more Windows XP or 7 in production than there are mainframes with z/OS 1.x
[10:43:37] <Deb Cooley_web_655> +1 Rich
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[10:43:57] <John Gray_web_515> We have been experimenting with PQ keys and composites and there are some certificate combinations that aren't actually that bad (4-6kb certs).   So we haven't needed to use additional compression as many schemes (like SPHINCS) for instance, already employ compression where possible to make keys as small as possible.
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[10:44:05] <Roman Danyliw_web_916> It seems like it might be an argument about how much of the overall system you might need to change.  The design I'm hearing is that the specific sub-system doing the crypto operations can be updated for PQC.  However, the sub-system that transports key is different, and this work would mitigate the need to change it
[10:44:16] <dkg> Yoav: there were *always* more windows XP systems than mainframes with z/OS
[10:44:27] <Yoav Nir_web_542> :-)
[10:45:08] <Thom Wiggers_web_455> AFAIK none of the finalists have compressed key formats by the way…
[10:45:10] <Yoav Nir_web_542> I meant proportions. A typical mainframe has 1-3 system programmers "taking care of it".  The typical PC got installed some time long ago
[10:45:39] <dkg> good luck getting your windows XP system to run dilithium via the core crypto stack 😛
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[10:45:50] <Thom Wiggers_web_455> You can store precomputed data in private keys but that’s implementation hacks
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[10:46:21] <Bas Westerbaan_web_236> (That's done in RSA private keys.)
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[10:47:11] <Thom Wiggers_web_455> (Fair)
[10:47:13] <Russ Housley_web_130> @Thom: I do not agree with the ASN.1 in the draft, but it shows a trade-off in size by sending/not sending values that can be computed.  Size / compute trade-off.
[10:47:50] <Deb Cooley_web_655> why is this draft here?  and not CFRG?  or even working w/ NIST?
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[10:48:11] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> So, is the very high-level to allow PQC priv keys to be a set of RNG seeds needed to regenerate the priv key, rather than the full priv key data?
[10:48:19] <Scott Fluhrer_web_539> It's here because it's mostly about how to represent keys in certs
[10:48:21] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> +1 Deb
[10:48:41] <Sean Turner_web_991> @Scott: I thought this was just about privates
[10:48:47] <Bas Westerbaan_web_236> Mike: +1. Although you could make more trade-offs of course, eg
[10:50:05] <MichaelRichardson> dkg, imagine that some of the infrastructure is just about how to backup the contents of TEE.
[10:50:31] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> +1 dkg: standardizing "lossless priv key regeneration" sounds easy-ish to do in proprietary code, hard to do in public standard.
[10:50:43] <MichaelRichardson> As Dan said a moment ago, this is about the doors and elevators being too small to get the HSM in/out of the data center.
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[10:51:10] <MichaelRichardson> But, I think that your point is generally well taken.  And stateful interfaces are gonna mess with a lot of operational stuff.
[10:51:47] <dkg> John Gray: thanks for doing that legwork!
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[10:53:24] <Bas Westerbaan_web_236> that's the risk early adopters take of course.
[10:53:38] <Rich Salz_web_918> we did PKCS8 for private keys (yeah okay after RSA/PKP did). And we did key formats for 25519 (used to be what, SECG-1 or something)?  Seems appropriate for IETF, esp since NIST sent them here.
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[10:53:58] <Florence D_web_819> I think it would be really useful to hear more about the challenges Michael's been running into.  There seems to be disagreement about if there's a problem here, or if there will be once NIST announce their algorithms.  Perhaps a ten minute presentation in LAMPS isn't the best place to get to the bottom of this.  I'm not sure what is (interim? separate paper?)
[10:54:07] <Sean Turner_web_740> @Rich and this is intended for informational so like sure
[10:54:36] <Alexey Melnikov_web_386> Florence D: or whether the proposed solution is the right one
[10:54:50] <dkg> i agree that stateful signatures are a different scope, but i'm observing that the "doors and elevators" will need to be redesigned for that use case as well
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[10:55:14] <Florence D_web_819> Alexey: That too of course, but laying out the problem is the first step and it's hard to do that and propose a solution in so short a time
[10:55:27] <Alexey Melnikov_web_386> Florence D: agreed
[10:56:14] <Yoav Nir_web_542> So this is a draft that says "these here are the OIDs".  Except the OIDs are still TBD. So the draft is essentially empty now.
[10:56:19] <dkg> but the solution might just be "the constraints on your  private key distribution channels should be at least *this* big"
[10:56:40] <> It's more like "the interpretation of OID <TBD> in PKIX"
[10:57:01] <> "interpretation and use", I guess
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[10:57:24] <Rich Salz_web_918> @dkg: but if you can effectively widen the channels by compression, why wouldn't you want to do that interoperably?
[10:58:14] <dkg> Rich: if everyone implements it, yes.  if it means that some keys are uninterpretable by some systems, then you're actually harming interop
[10:58:31] <> "What do we want?"
"WG adoption!"
"When do we want it?"
[10:58:39] <dkg> +1 to avoiding parameters
[10:58:56] <Yoav Nir_web_542> But how are those octets in the octet string going to be compresssed?
[10:58:58] <Rich Salz_web_918> @dkg: we're not the protocol police, to quote a trope.
[10:58:58] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> How do I speakL?
[10:59:11] <Yoav Nir_web_542> click the mic icon
[10:59:12] <> local mute
[10:59:19] <> meetecho thinks you are sending
[10:59:23] <Rich Salz_web_918> @yoav: i think that's the point  -- specifying how.
[10:59:27] <Quynh Dang_web_244> looks nice.
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[10:59:55] <Alexey Melnikov_web_386> Mike: or use chat, we can relay
[11:00:04] <Sean Turner_web_740> to be clear Panos has swayed me to the one alg per I-D.
[11:00:15] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> I'll type
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[11:00:45] <John Gray_web_515> I was going to ask about Signatures as well.   Should there be one for that.
[11:00:46] <Mike Ounsworth_web_800> @Sean: note that there are some important security considerations around KEMs: I think you draft needs to limit the shared secret length for each KEM
[11:00:46] <Rich Salz_web_918> bye all
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[11:00:54] <Yoav Nir_web_542> Interim should be after the announcement
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[11:00:57] <Tim Hollebeek_web_468> thanks everyone for some great discussion!
[11:00:58] <Bas Westerbaan_web_236> thank you all!
[11:01:00] <dkg> thanks all
[11:01:02] <Massimiliano Pala_web_592> bye all! Thank you!
[11:01:03] <Quynh Dang_web_244> Thank you all.
[11:01:03] <Bas Westerbaan_web_236> thank you, Sean
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[11:01:07] <Alexey Melnikov_web_386> Thank you
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[11:01:16] <Jan Klaußner_web_975> Thanks and bye!
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[11:01:20] <justus> thanks
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[11:01:23] <Massimiliano Pala_web_592> Looking forward to the interim :)
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[11:01:31] <John Gray_web_515> Thanks everyone
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[11:01:32] <Sean Turner_web_740> @MikeO: noted
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