IETF
LAMPS
lamps@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, March 12, 2021< ^ >
synp has set the subject to: LAMPS at IETF 105 https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/agenda-105-lamps-00
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[15:51:50] <Yoav Nir_web_551> Wow. Topic hasn't been set since 105...
[15:52:25] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> Maybe those items are still on the agenda ;)
[15:53:13] synp has set the subject to: LAMPS at IETF 110
[15:54:27] <Yoav Nir_web_551> They may be.
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[16:00:42] <dkg> some of them definitely are :/
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[16:02:23] <dkg> Yoav++
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[16:03:00] <dkg> hope Tim is ok
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[16:03:47] <Alessandro Amirante_web_669> He is, he's trying to sort out some issue with the meeting registration...
[16:03:56] <dkg> there's Tim now
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[16:04:30] <Mike Ounsworth_web_908> Dumb question: how do you get your photo in meetecho? I can get to my datatracker profile, but don't see a way to upload a photo.
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[16:04:50] <Meetecho> Mike: if you change your photo in the datatracker, that's what we use
[16:04:58] <dkg> Mike Ounsworth_web_908: i think it might only be done for ppl with positions like WG chair someplace
[16:05:14] <Alessandro Amirante_web_669> Mike: you should send it to the secretariat and they'll take care of uploading it
[16:05:14] <Meetecho> When no photo is there, we try gravatar (using the mail as the key) if you have an account there
[16:06:02] <Mike Ounsworth_web_908> Are non-chair plebs like me allowed to send a photo to the secretariat?
[16:06:12] <dkg> it's worth a try
[16:06:13] <Meetecho> Sure :D
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[16:06:22] <dkg> if you want additional facial recognition surveillance :P
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[16:06:28] <Mike Ounsworth_web_908> :P
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[16:06:57] <dkg> i can't believe you don't want to offer to be a WG chair just to get your pic in meetecho
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[16:09:32] <Yoav Nir_web_551> ACME is hiring...
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[16:10:51] <Tim Hollebeek_web_992> And ... closed one too many Chrome tabs :(
[16:11:25] <Yoav Nir_web_551> Always be closing (applies to Chrome tabs too)
[16:11:32] <Tim Hollebeek_web_992> You're not wrong.
[16:12:02] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> Short-lived tabs are as uncommon as short-lived WGs
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[16:13:03] <Tim Hollebeek_web_992> Yes, all tabs should have 30-day expirations, so they randomly close when you least expect it.
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[16:14:45] <Mike Ounsworth_web_908> I believe the self-closing tabs problem has already been solved via forced windows reboots ...
[16:15:03] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> Legacy UI displays headers as rotated text as in this slide.
[16:15:04] <Robert Moskowitz> I got my photo in my profile.  You have to ask, and be nice to the secretariat.  ;)
[16:15:17] <Tim Hollebeek_web_992> Not with the auto-restore after reboot feature of browsers these days :)
[16:15:38] <Robert Moskowitz> Or use history to reload your last session.
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[16:19:57] <Deb Cooley_web_386> 'persistently ephemeral'
[16:20:05] <Deb Cooley_web_386> might be the quote of the day
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[16:21:03] <Russ Housley_web_334> :grinning:
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[16:25:28] <Yoav Nir_web_551> Most MUAs by default don't include attachments in replies
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[16:30:47] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> With legacy clients, you have to be careful with replies because I believe they would be using unprotected headers for determining who to reply to.
[16:31:13] <Tim Hollebeek_web_992> That is a very interesting point.
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[16:35:24] <Alexey Melnikov_web_461> I haven’t seen bugs with Thunderbird in this area
[16:35:32] <Alexey Melnikov_web_461> Si
[16:36:06] <Alexey Melnikov_web_461> So I suspect there is a problem with the example message
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[16:37:59] <dkg> Jonathan Hammell_web_877: agreed that replies are super tricky!
[16:38:09] <Alexey Melnikov_web_461> +1 to Bernie
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[16:38:14] <dkg> i welcome help drafting text on guidance for MUAs there
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[16:39:27] <Alexey Melnikov_web_461> Multipart/mixed is enough, IMHO
[16:39:51] <Alexey Melnikov_web_461> Sure
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[16:40:47] <Alexey Melnikov_web_461> Multipart/alternative + attachment is Ok
[16:41:15] <Alexey Melnikov_web_461> I will :-)
[16:42:26] <Roman Danyliw> Do you need Outlook?
[16:42:35] <Tim Hollebeek_web_992> yeah, I'll do Outlook.
[16:42:41] <Tim Hollebeek_web_992> I just assumed someone else had :)
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[16:42:45] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> I did Outlook with the previous test vectors.
[16:42:47] <Roman Danyliw> I can do outlook if needed
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[16:43:29] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> I believe I submitted a PR to the repo.
[16:43:33] <Alexey Melnikov_web_461> Let’s make sure that the signature verifies first.
[16:43:57] <dkg> https://header-protection.cmrg.net/
[16:44:00] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> Ah, I see.  Thanks for the clarification on the previous repo.
[16:44:10] <Yoav Nir_web_551> Need to check Apple main and some popular Android clients (that aren't just a packaging of gmail)
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[16:44:28] <Yoav Nir_web_551> It is
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[16:46:28] <Roman Danyliw> I don't see an issue with a large appendix
[16:46:33] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> Can the draft just refer to a repo containing the test vectors?  That is done in COSE.
[16:48:05] <Mike Ounsworth_web_908> Is there a precedent for putting test vectors into I-Ds / RFCs?
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[16:49:01] <Roman Danyliw> Yes, we put test vectors in RFCs
[16:49:05] <Roman Danyliw> and sometimes even code
[16:49:17] <Roman Danyliw> it should of course be cleaner
[16:49:31] <Mike Ounsworth_web_908> Is there a good example to look at?
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[16:50:05] <Carl Mehner_web_110> slightly different type of test vector.. but: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7539#section-2.1.1
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[16:52:00] <Roman Danyliw> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4231
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[16:52:34] <Tim Hollebeek_web_992> This is why I have strong opinions on the issue.  https://x9.org/standards/x9-24-part-3-test-vectors/.  Sixty six pages of test vectors, converted to and published as PDF over my objections ... :)
[16:52:39] <Roman Danyliw> Test vectors and code in same doc: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5769
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[16:54:09] <Deb Cooley_web_386> can you repeat the question?
[16:54:18] <Deb Cooley_web_386> It is friday....
[16:54:24] <dkg> draft-dkg-lamps-samples
[16:54:33] <Roman Danyliw> I think publishing vectors is helpful
[16:54:39] <Alexey Melnikov_web_209> I am in favour of adopting
[16:54:51] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> I think it is useful.  I'm in favour of adopting.
[16:54:53] <Robert Moskowitz> I have the EdDSA25519 CA done.  I will have the clients shortly.
[16:54:59] <Tim Hollebeek_web_992> In favor if implementers find it useful.
[16:55:10] <bhoeneis> in favor
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[16:56:02] <Roman Danyliw> If adopted, yes, you'll resubmit with a new name and link back to old individual draft.
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[16:56:17] <dkg> Roman Danyliw: thanks!
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[17:00:43] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> If others contribute key material to DKG's samples doc, is that a distributed key generation (DKG) protocol?  (for those who were in CFRG)
[17:00:54] <dkg> oof
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[17:02:05] <Mike Ounsworth_web_466> And the Dad Joke Award goes to ...
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[17:06:20] <Robert Moskowitz> Yes it is.  So if I make the Edward keys, is that a new alias for me???
[17:06:36] <Tadahiko Ito_web_971> there is a key length comparison page. it seems it recommended length would be depending on cryptoperiod of data. https://www.keylength.com/en/compare/
[17:07:19] <Robert Moskowitz> And for Dad jokes, my youngest is engaged with a late May wedding date.  So my wife and I will soon get to be empty-nesters.
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[17:13:14] <Deb Cooley_web_386> but you will still be a Dad....
[17:14:58] <Robert Moskowitz> Yes.  They are planning on staying here in the neighborhood.  So my oldest and youngest daughters here with middle daughter and all sons elsewhere.  Oldest grandson's bar mitzva is now, so Dad^2.
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[17:20:03] <Deb Cooley_web_386> I had started making comments on that draft...
[17:20:12] <Deb Cooley_web_386> but I got distracted....
[17:20:55] <Yoav Nir_web_551> So there's DKG's draft as a candidate for the mail guidance proposed item.  Are there candidates for item #5 in the charter (the combined PQC and classic signatures)
[17:20:57] <Deb Cooley_web_386> yeah, theoretically
[17:21:52] <dkg> Deb Cooley_web_386: i know what that's like.  please don't feel like you need to make exhaustive (or exhausting) comments.  making a few comments at a time is also fine (probably more manageable for me too)
[17:21:54] <Roman Danyliw> it just took me a little bit of time to find the right window
[17:22:11] <Deb Cooley_web_386> will do.
[17:26:18] <Dan Harkins_web_857> slides don't seem to be advancing along with the talk...
[17:27:11] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> Perhaps Rene can say which slide he is on (since there are slide numbers).
[17:27:22] <Dan Harkins_web_857> that would help!
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[17:27:41] <Deb Cooley_web_386> I think we want slide 5
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[17:29:03] <Deb Cooley_web_386> slide 7
[17:29:49] <Tero Kivinen_web_269> slide 8 now I think.
[17:30:13] <Deb Cooley_web_386> yes
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[17:35:11] <Robert Moskowitz> Is there some crypto hidden meaning in accross on this slide?  ;)
[17:35:56] <Robert Moskowitz> I mean asymmetric crypto curve or such?
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[17:41:38] <Roman Danyliw> @Scott: It was appropriate to raise the issue if you know about IPR.  Thank you.
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[17:42:58] <Russ Housley_web_334> +1
[17:43:28] <Yoav Nir_web_551> Wouldn't "old devices" by definition not have a parser that knows ECDSA*?
[17:44:22] <Russ Housley_web_334> @Yoav: Yes, that is my understanding too
[17:44:41] <Deb Cooley_web_386> exactly
[17:44:50] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> ECDSA with Koblitz curves (non-prime) are also widely used, I think (e.g. Bitcoin).
[17:45:58] <Dan Harkins_web_857> @Yoav, I think he's saying that the old device will process the ECDSA* signature as ECDSA and it will verify as usual.
[17:46:38] <Deb Cooley_web_386> for Option 2?
[17:47:25] <Russ Housley_web_334> @Yoav: That is how I understand Option 2
[17:48:13] <Yoav Nir_web_551> I'm thinking about option #3. New OID means all old RPs don't parse it.
[17:49:48] <Russ Housley_web_334> correct, it is a new OID, so it would be treated as an unknown algorithm
[17:49:59] <Jonathan Hammell_web_877> Just put it in the commonName.  Rich was proposing to get rid of that anyway.  ;)
[17:50:05] <Scott Fluhrer_web_252> Possible patent: 8738912 - that has not expired
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[17:52:19] <Scott Fluhrer_web_252> However, if you did publish this idea in 2010, well, that predates the patent
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[17:54:20] <Robert Moskowitz> Time to go.  Catch you all later.
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[17:55:08] <Stavros Kousidis_web_954> @scott: still, prior art + valid patent = coin toss
[17:56:40] <Carl Mehner_web_110> Scott, do you have a link to that? i just find "2018-07-17    Expired due to failure to pay maintenance fee"
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[17:58:40] <synp> 4 years is what it takes us to publish
[17:58:53] <Scott Fluhrer_web_252> @Carl: https://patents.justia.com/patent/8738912
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[17:59:07] <Scott Fluhrer_web_252> At least, that's the link I found.  I can't find another...
[17:59:36] <Mike Ounsworth_web_466> That's a reasonable point about Quantum: is it worth the effort of improving ECC at this point?
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[18:01:02] <Olle Johansson_web_931> Thanks Russ! All the ten meters...
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