IETF
irtfopen
irtfopen@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, March 8, 2021< ^ >
synp has set the subject to: IRTFOPEN @ IETF-103 - https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/agenda-103-irtfopen-00
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[11:53:28] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_458> looking good
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[11:53:43] <alex-meetecho> we can hear and see you fine Colin
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[11:54:25] <Colin Perkins_web_430> Thanks – videos will be in the order Francis then Audrey
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[11:58:00] <Mat Ford_web_648> topic set to IETF 103?? shum mishtake shurely
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[11:58:38] sftcd-pidgin has set the subject to: IRTFOPEN @ IETF-1103333 - https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/agenda-103-irtfopen-00
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[12:00:56] <Spencer Dawkins_web_458> Mat - IETF 103 was a nice meeting :-)
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[12:01:31] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> Bangkok IIRC
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[12:02:54] <Olaf Kolkman_web_175> Can you speak up a bit Colin?
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[12:03:29] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> Sounds fine to me.
[12:03:34] <Olaf Kolkman_web_175> Not really...
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[12:03:38] <Peter van Dijk_web_638> note that the Meetecho client also has a volume slider
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[12:03:58] <Peter van Dijk_web_638> so if the presenter sounds soft compared to your other apps, it might be that
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[12:04:05] <Olaf Kolkman_web_175> Slider is on max
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[12:04:14] <Olaf Kolkman_web_175> But I'll live
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[12:04:20] <Alessandro Amirante_web_283> He's loud and clear to me, maybe your system's volume level is low?
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[12:04:51] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> I'm now kind of paranoid that I'll suddenly be deafened by the first speaker :sweat_smile:
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[12:05:29] <sftcd-pidgin> getting used to disliking this;-(
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[12:09:39] <David Lawrence_web_681> this = meetecho?
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[12:10:43] <Andrew Campling_web_271> FWIW I find Meetecho to be the best tool of its type for large events like this
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[12:14:16] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_788> Thanks and Welcome Andra and Nick!
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[12:18:00] <Francis Yan_web_926> Hello everyone -- this is Francis
[12:18:21] <Mat Ford_web_648> Hi Francis! Congratulations again, and welcome.
[12:18:41] <Francis Yan_web_926> Thanks for having me! It is my honor to receive the award and to be here.
[12:18:41] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_788> Welcome Francis and congrats!
[12:18:42] <Spencer Dawkins_web_458> Francis, it's nice to have another economist at this IRTF Open session :-)
[12:18:52] <Patrick Tarpey_web_317> No video output
[12:19:31] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> Video working for me. Perhaps refresh?
[12:19:48] <Peter van Dijk_web_638> Try clicking 'Presentation view', it's the leftmost button in the top bar.
[12:20:08] <Alessandro Amirante_web_283> Patrick: are you in presentation or gallery view?
[12:20:13] <Spencer Dawkins_web_458> I think the video IS the presentation for a recorded talk
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[12:20:45] <Francis Yan_web_926> (We know having a degree in economics is still far away from being an economist, but thanks for saying that)
[12:20:58] <Colin Perkins_web_430> The videos are also on the IETF YouTube channel and on irtf.org/anrp
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[12:21:21] <Patrick Tarpey_web_317> sorted video thanks
[12:21:28] <Francis Yan_web_926> I can turn on my video camera too if that helps :-)
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[12:22:58] <Francis Yan_web_926> Welcome to try yourself: https://puffer.stanford.edu
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[12:29:23] <Spencer Dawkins_web_458> I am loving this slide (18)
[12:29:32] <Francis Yan_web_926> Thanks!
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[12:31:03] <Ali Begen_web_443> I am entirely sold on the idea of having all the sessions incorporated into a single algorithm's confidence intervals (it is obvious that people in different places/networks, watching different videos do get different performance from the same player/algorithm).
[12:31:25] <mglt> I am wondering if there are any assumption that the traffic remain the same over - has the same characteristics during the two years or if that is not a necessary assumptions.
[12:31:41] <Francis Yan_web_926> (Oh hey Ali, nice to chat with you here :-) )
[12:32:10] <Spencer Dawkins_web_458> I'm curious what this will look like over QUIC, of course :-)
[12:32:22] <Audrey Randall_web_527> Did the "two years" number mean the years of video streamed or the time the experiment was conducted over?
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[12:33:12] <Francis Yan_web_926> Re: mglt's question: Good question! We have not found any significant difference over time that requires retraining, but we retrain the model every day and monitor its performance in case there is the need to adapt to time-varying characteristics.
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[12:33:50] <mglt> thanks!
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[12:34:07] <David Oran_web_194> Did you investigate the possibility that having a single server (complex) in a single topological location on the Internet would not bias the results in any way?
[12:34:27] <Francis Yan_web_926> Re: Spencer's question: That'd be fun to try! We only tried BBR and Cubic, and saw BBR outperform Cubic reliably (with a large amount of data collected from randomized experiment), but we only used BBR in the paper.
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[12:35:00] <Francis Yan_web_926> Re: Audrey's question: It was referring to experiment time; not the wall clock time.
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[12:35:20] <Audrey Randall_web_527> Thanks!
[12:35:36] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> @Francis Did you see users refreshing the page more often or having shorter sessions on the worse performing algorithms?
[12:35:37] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_788> there are actually more optimized congestion controller for video, see the rmcat working group (e.g. scream or nada)
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[12:35:52] <Spencer Dawkins_web_458> Francis, I heard you say that your users were in the US. Have you thought about people further away?
[12:36:00] <Francis Yan_web_926> Re: David's question: That's a good question that we have not investigated. We only have one server at Stanford unfortunately, and admittedly adding CDN or multiple servers may influence the findings.
[12:36:51] <David Oran_web_194> ACK- Thanks
[12:37:08] <Francis Yan_web_926> Re: Spencer's userbase question: Unfortunately we are only approved by Stanford lawyers to stream to U.S. users currently to avoid potential legal issues :)
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[12:37:38] <Spencer Dawkins_web_458> Ah - I thought it might be something like that.
Perhaps we should talk!
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[12:39:15] <Francis Yan_web_926> Re: Mirja's point: Yes, we were aware of SCReAM and other congestion-control that are proposed to video streaming specifically, but ABR doesn't actually require as low latency as videoconferencing. Reliable transmission like BBR works just fine in our experience, but you're right that it's a potential direction for next work to continue the co-design of CC and ABR.
[12:39:51] <Francis Yan_web_926> (Sounds good, Spencer, happy to talk offline regarding that issue)
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[12:41:16] <Francis Yan_web_926> (can't seem to edit my replies so please forgive any typos)
[12:41:36] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_788> Yes that's what I was thinking of; more co-design the two
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[12:41:53] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_788> (no worries about typos ;-) )
[12:41:59] <David Oran_web_194> One further observation/question: can Fugu predict whether having a lower base quality in the manifest of encoded qualities would eliminate more stalls? I ask because there's anecdotal evidence that stalls occur under network conditions where no data would get though before the playout point expires. If no, having lower qualities would likely produce better QoE than allowing a stall.
[12:42:10] <Spencer Dawkins_web_458> What Mirja said - exactly.
[12:42:59] <Francis Yan_web_926> Missed a question from Jonathan: We had a figure that plots the distribution of watch times; users chose to watch Fugu longer but other than the observation, we didn't fully understand what factors caused the difference exactly.
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[12:44:40] <Zaid AlBanna_web_811> +q On slide 29, when calculating the median versus the mean show similar spreads in quality parameters ?
[12:45:07] <Colin Perkins_web_430> Feel free to jump into the queue to ask questions via audio too :)
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[12:46:33] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> +q
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[12:48:37] <Ali Begen_web_443> To my knowledge, Netflix never confirmed or denied using BBA or anything else :face_with_rolling_eyes:
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[12:50:00] <Simon Leinen_web_393> Has there been similar work on videoconferencing systems (Zoom, Jitsi, Meetecho :-)?
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[12:51:03] <Ali Begen_web_443> And here is the link: https://2021.acmmmsys.org/rtc_challenge.php
[12:51:10] <Simon Leinen_web_393> Excellent, thanks a lot for the answer!
[12:51:51] <Ali Begen_web_443> So, in late September, you will likely see some cool ideas for the conferencing apps, too!
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[12:53:00] <Simon Leinen_web_393> Thanks, looking forward to them!
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[12:54:57] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> I wonder if it's a question of code optimisation then.
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[12:56:50] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> Yeah
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[12:57:28] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> Did you compare server compute time for the algorithms?
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[12:58:20] <Renan Krishna_web_337> What information was included in the state updates to the MPC controller?
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[12:58:27] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> Thanks :blush:
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[12:59:40] <Roland Bless_web_403> How far does the CC kick in at all? Does it leave Slow Start often?
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[12:59:54] <Renan Krishna_web_337> Thanks:slightly_smiling_face:
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[13:00:54] <Roland Bless_web_403> thanks
[13:01:17] <Ali Begen_web_443> when you use an initial window of 32, slow start matters less.
[13:01:30] <Ali Begen_web_443> Good talk Francis!
[13:02:09] <Francis Yan_web_926> That's also a good point w.r.t. increased initial window size. Thanks Ali!
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[13:02:39] <Audrey Randall_web_527> Hello folks
[13:02:41] <Francis Yan_web_926> Please feel free to reach out to me at francisy@microsoft.com with any more questions or thoughts or research collaborations.
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[13:03:02] <Francis Yan_web_926> It's all yours, Audrey :-)
[13:03:14] <Spencer Dawkins_web_458> Francis - we will!
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[13:06:28] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> If two people are doing cache snooping at the same time then do they both get borked results?
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[13:06:51] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> (Assuming multiple DNS servers and queries interleaved in some way)
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[13:07:38] <Audrey Randall_web_527> Not if they are using Recursion Desired = False and the resolver respects the flag. I can elaborate further on audio if you like.
[13:07:47] <Andrew Campling_web_271> Is de-anonymizing data from ISP resolvers really an issue, at least for those with millions of users?  
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[13:08:44] <Jim Reid_web_952> Audrey, how do you deal with anycasting => you don't always know which resolver is answering
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[13:09:06] <Audrey Randall_web_527> @Andrew I would argue not. The real issue is open resolvers that were never designed to be resolvers, because they're really just tiny home routers. You could run our technique on large ISPs as well.
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[13:09:44] <Andrew Campling_web_271> @Audrey, thanks, that makes sense.  
[13:09:45] <Audrey Randall_web_527> @Jim We use CHAOS TXT location queries that are provided as debugging tools by the public resolvers
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[13:10:35] <Jim Reid_web_952> Cool! Thanks Audrey.
[13:11:08] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> +nsid is a better tool, I believe, but it could have wider support.
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[13:13:05] <Audrey Randall_web_527> @ Vladimir thanks for the recommendation, I hadn't heard of that.
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[13:15:31] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> Do you ever see two hits on a single ghost cache/
[13:15:33] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> ?*
[13:15:42] <Audrey Randall_web_527> Yes, quite often
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[13:15:54] <Suzanne Woolf_web_695> NSID is discussed in RFC 5001. But it turns out that trying to replace CHAOS TXT is a lot like trying to replace WHOIS.
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[13:16:34] <Jim Reid_web_952> Is whois still a thing in these GDPR times? :-)
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[13:17:43] <David Lawrence_web_681> I see the smiley, but for anyone else here who doesn't know the answer you know ... yes of course
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[13:17:59] <Jim Reid_web_952> Audrey, could google be doing predictive pre-fetching?ie a lookup of A is almost always followed by a lookup of B
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[13:20:34] <Audrey Randall_web_527> @ Jim Do you mean as an explanation for the ghost caches? We considered that but didn't think it was probable, since the frontend caches storing the maximum TTLs seemed to always be the case.
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[13:21:24] <Audrey Randall_web_527> We didn't study whether Google prefetches the sorts of domains we study, but we considered it unlikely for these particular domains since they're so rare.
[13:21:51] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> These things would be easier to determine if you also tried with your own authoritative servers.
[13:22:22] <Audrey Randall_web_527> We did, actually. The domain we were using is one we run the AN for. :)
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[13:22:32] <David Lawrence_web_681> I don't understand, Vladimir.   She was using her own.  Do you mean in some other context/
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[13:22:51] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> Oh, never mind then.  I missed it, clearly.
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[13:23:20] <Jim Reid_web_952> @audrey - yes. The operators of these public resolvers should be at this meeting. Some might even be in this session.
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[13:23:54] <Audrey Randall_web_527> @ Vladimir That's how we know the ghost caches didn't correspond to a request to the authoritative nameserver, actually, which now that I think of it is one of the ways we ruled out prefetching as an explanation for the ghost caches.
[13:24:09] <Audrey Randall_web_527> @ Jim Great!
[13:25:20] <David Lawrence_web_681> Interestingly I don't see any of the usual suspects in the attendee list from the operators covered.
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[13:25:48] <David Lawrence_web_681> might have overlooked someone though.  apologies.
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[13:27:04] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> @Audrey: thanks.  That seems like really "interesting" cache behavior from Google.
[13:27:14] <Andrew Campling_web_271> I can see at least a couple of people from the companies mentioned in the slides - of course they may not be directly involved in the DNS operations
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[13:28:51] <Jim Reid_web_952> @ David, if the usual suspects are missing, we can arrange intros for Audrey later. And may arrange an invite to DNS-OARC in May
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[13:29:04] <Peter van Dijk_web_676> And, I think the paper has been out for a few months already, so it's likely they are aware. I know Quad9 has seen it.
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[13:29:19] <Audrey Randall_web_527> @ Jim I would really appreciate that.
[13:29:27] <David Lawrence_web_681> Huh, what's the URL for that service?
[13:29:30] <David Lawrence_web_681> ... jk
[13:29:49] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_928> Hi, I cannot understand how it detects these spywares: just regarding some DNS queries? Thanks!
[13:30:04] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> I've seen adverts for Ph.D. thesis contract cheating. I can't imagine they see many purchases.
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[13:30:43] <Andrew Campling_web_271> @Audrey Apologies if you've mentioned this already.  Some (all?) of the cloud-based resolvers offer some form of malicious content filtering, some on their lead resolver, others on a less high profile version.  Which were you testing?
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[13:30:57] <Jim Reid_web_952> Audrey, where to you get the domain names for contract cheating services?
[13:31:22] <Audrey Randall_web_527> @ J Ignacio We downloaded and profiled the stalkerware apps to see which DNS queries the apps and their dashboards make, and then used our cache snooping technique to measure how often those domains were in cache.
[13:31:53] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_928> Thanks @Audrey!
[13:32:02] <Suzanne Woolf_web_695> @audrey we can also point people at this archive in DNSOP on Thursday.
[13:32:38] <Andrew Campling_web_271> Another reason for the default DNS offerings of mass market resolvers to include malicious content filtering?
[13:33:08] <Peter van Dijk_web_676> (Quad9 filters some malicious content, by default)
[13:33:24] <David Lawrence_web_681> echo went away
[13:33:40] <Andrew Campling_web_271> @Peter Indeed, IMHO others should too!
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[13:34:21] <Jim Reid_web_952> Where did the list of typosquatted names come from?
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[13:35:55] <Willem Toorop_web_806> @audrey you advise to not get rid of cache snooping yet. Unbound doesn't have it (with unset RD bit). Should it add this feature?
[13:35:56] <Jim Reid_web_952> Excellent talk Audrey and great work!
[13:36:33] <Francis Yan_web_926> Exactly -- awesome work!
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[13:36:52] <Andrew Campling_web_271> Indeed, a very interesting presentation.  
[13:37:00] <Tobias Mayer_web_128> well done! very interessting!
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[13:38:06] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> @Willem: for reference, we at Knot Resolver decided to refuse RD=0 queries, by default (since 2019).  I personally see more risks than real uses.
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[13:38:34] <Jim Reid_web_952> YEs
[13:38:46] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> (Obviously this research isn't malicious, but we can't "detect" how the gathered data is used.)
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[13:39:31] <Tom Carpay_web_858> @Vladimír what types of risks do you see?
[13:39:42] <David Lawrence_web_681> Feature request: add an EDE for the yet-one-more overloading of REFUSED
[13:39:46] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> This was a _super_ interesting talk. Would be really good to see results from around the world, as abuse techniques can vary quite significantly by culture / geography.
[13:39:59] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> @Tom: basically what this research is doing :-D
[13:40:05] <Tom Carpay_web_858> ha!
[13:40:31] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> (Abuse as in domestic violence, not as in protocol abuse)
[13:40:32] <Willem Toorop_web_806> Thanks @Audrey very interesting!
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[13:40:59] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> To be clear, *default* settings isn't targeted for huge instances like those studied (and the risks are somewhat lower there, as said).
[13:41:10] <Willem Toorop_web_806> Maybe it could be a config option in unbound, so the bigger resolvers could turn it on to enable these kind of measurements
[13:41:27] <Willem Toorop_web_806> And a config option in know as well then
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[13:41:47] <Willem Toorop_web_806> Yes
[13:41:48] <David Lawrence_web_681> Yes, that is about RD
[13:41:55] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> Yes, I meant the RD=0 denial.
[13:42:04] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> (but it's general rule)
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[13:42:55] <Jim Reid_web_952> There's a LOT of RD=1 traffic hitting the DNS root.
[13:43:37] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> It might mess with your geolocation
[13:43:37] <Christopher Wood_web_572> +1 -- Oblivious DNS shouldn't affect the results here.
[13:43:41] <Tom Carpay_web_858> Love the name of the tool btw!
[13:44:00] <sftcd-pidgin> @chris: wouldn't oblivious affect this if it distributes queries over >1 public recursive?
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[13:44:19] <Eric Orth_web_973> In theory, Oblivious might affect which frontends get hit by the requests.
[13:44:37] <Christopher Wood_web_572> @Stephen if you spread, yeah, that's true.
[13:44:49] <Christopher Wood_web_572> @Eric can you elaborate? Clients choose the targets.
[13:45:18] <Eric Orth_web_973> Target as in the provider, yes the clients choose it.  Specific endpoint getting hit, might be affected.
[13:45:32] <Petr Špaček_web_267> @audrey The chat server for DNS community mentioned up the thread is open for public. Here is more information and registration link: https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc/services/chat . You can find people from all four public operators mentioned in your presentation there.
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[13:46:07] <Christopher Wood_web_572> @Eric :+1:
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[13:46:19] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_788> Thanks for the talks! Great work!
[13:46:20] <Simon Leinen_web_393> Thanks Audrey, thanks Francis, really interesting work!
[13:46:25] <Avri Doria_web_239> thanks, good talks.
[13:46:38] <Jonathan Hoyland_web_113> Yeah, thanks for the great talks, and thanks to the chairs for arranging them
[13:46:41] <Audrey Randall_web_527> You can contact me at aurandal@eng.ucsd.edu if you have more questions. Thanks all!
[13:46:42] <Dirk Kutscher_web_693> Thanks -- was quite interesting!
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[13:46:47] <Joey Salazar_web_985> :thumbsup:
[13:46:53] <Vladimír Čunát_web_602> Thanks!
[13:46:55] <Francis Yan_web_926> Thanks, everyone! It was my pleasure to be here. My email is francisy@microsoft.com. Thanks!
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[13:47:00] <Andrew Campling_web_271> @Audrey: Oblivious draft - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-dprive-oblivious-doh/  
[13:47:02] <Mat Ford_web_648> thanks Colin! great talks.
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[13:47:08] <Richard Scheffenegger_web_458> thx
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[13:47:13] <Audrey Randall_web_527> @ Andrew thanks!
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[13:47:31] <Colin Perkins_web_430> Thanks all - interesting talks!
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