[03:00:08] zulipbot joins the room
[05:14:49] ghwood joins the room
[08:32:30] spencerdawkins joins the room
[08:37:32] Meetecho joins the room
[08:49:52] csp joins the room
[08:50:03] Daniam Henriques joins the room
[08:50:03] Juan Cerezo joins the room
[08:50:03] Paolo Saviano joins the room
[08:50:03] Meetecho Robot joins the room
[08:50:03] Peter Koch joins the room
[08:50:03] Juhamatti Kuusisaari joins the room
[08:50:03] David Millman joins the room
[08:50:03] Stuart Cheshire joins the room
[08:50:03] Loren McIntyre joins the room
[08:50:03] Rick Taylor joins the room
[08:50:03] Spencer Dawkins joins the room
[08:50:04] Chris Lemmons joins the room
[08:50:24] Colin Perkins joins the room
[08:50:32] Alessandro Amirante joins the room
[08:51:14] Paolo Saviano leaves the room
[08:53:14] Julien Maisonneuve joins the room
[08:53:17] <Colin Perkins> @meetecho Hi! Are the recorded videos ready?
[08:53:24] Jonathan Morton joins the room
[08:53:29] <Meetecho> Colin Perkins: yep :)
[08:53:39] <Colin Perkins> Thanks!
[08:53:40] Debopam Bhattacherjee joins the room
[08:53:42] Debopam Bhattacherjee leaves the room
[08:53:57] Debopam Bhattacherjee joins the room
[08:54:06] andrew_campling joins the room
[08:54:07] <Alessandro Amirante> Colin is the order of the videos the one you mentioned in the email?
[08:54:20] Mat Ford joins the room
[08:54:38] Georgia Fragkouli joins the room
[08:54:51] Riccardo Nanni joins the room
[08:54:52] <Colin Perkins> Yes, I think so. Bhattacherjee, Fragkouli, then Ware.
[08:55:27] <Alessandro Amirante> :+1:
[08:55:32] Georgia Fragkouli leaves the room
[08:56:25] james welch joins the room
[08:56:25] englishm joins the room
[08:56:29] Mihail Yanev joins the room
[08:56:56] Mike English joins the room
[08:57:08] Georgia Fragkouli joins the room
[08:57:20] Zheng Zhang joins the room
[08:58:05] Stuart Card joins the room
[08:58:09] Wojciech Kozlowski joins the room
[08:58:09] Wojciech Kozlowski leaves the room
[08:58:13] Wojciech Kozlowski joins the room
[08:58:24] Szilveszter Nadas joins the room
[08:58:28] Joakim Misund joins the room
[08:58:35] Stephen McQuistin joins the room
[08:58:52] Olaf Kolkman joins the room
[08:59:06] Renan Krishna joins the room
[08:59:20] <Chris Lemmons> Yup, good on audio and slides.
[08:59:20] <Szilveszter Nadas> both good
[08:59:20] <Wojciech Kozlowski> Yes to both
[08:59:27] Ulrich Wisser joins the room
[08:59:47] Frode Kileng joins the room
[08:59:47] Marco Davids joins the room
[08:59:47] Greg Wood joins the room
[09:00:05] Alissa Cooper joins the room
[09:00:07] Brian Trammell joins the room
[09:00:12] frodek joins the room
[09:00:17] Ryan Cross joins the room
[09:00:23] Bruno Rijsman joins the room
[09:00:25] Vidhi Goel joins the room
[09:00:47] Rodney Van Meter joins the room
[09:00:49] Lars Eggert joins the room
[09:00:57] Carlos Bernardos joins the room
[09:01:01] Nitin Batta joins the room
[09:01:05] Joseph Kalfa joins the room
[09:01:08] Laurent Ciavaglia joins the room
[09:01:12] Kazuaki Ueda joins the room
[09:01:18] Francois Ortolan joins the room
[09:01:24] <Rodney Van Meter> Hi, IRTFans! Chat working today?
[09:01:26] Jay Daley joins the room
[09:01:31] Georgia Fragkouli leaves the room
[09:01:32] Jonathan Hoyland joins the room
[09:01:32] Frode Kileng leaves the room
[09:01:32] Dirk Hugo joins the room
[09:01:39] Frode Kileng joins the room
[09:01:43] <Colin Perkins> Hi Rod :)
[09:01:44] <Laurent Ciavaglia> it seems yes ;)
[09:01:45] Lv Yunping joins the room
[09:01:46] <Vidhi Goel> yup
[09:01:49] Georgia Fragkouli joins the room
[09:01:56] <Marco Davids> Hello!
[09:02:06] Valery Smyslov joins the room
[09:02:11] Ayush Mishra joins the room
[09:02:12] Ranysha Ware joins the room
[09:02:13] Ranysha Ware leaves the room
[09:02:16] <Rodney Van Meter> Dinner in an hour or so here, so I win the time zone sweepstakes.
[09:02:23] Ranysha Ware joins the room
[09:02:26] jhoyla joins the room
[09:02:27] <Mat Ford> have a beer for me ;-)
[09:02:54] <Rodney Van Meter> Condolences to those in Americas timezones.
[09:03:03] <jhoyla> I don't know Rod, 09:00 seems pretty good to me.
[09:03:15] Zhenbin Li joins the room
[09:03:29] Jake Holland joins the room
[09:03:35] Christian Hopps joins the room
[09:03:39] Carlos Bernardos leaves the room
[09:03:48] Oliver Borchert joins the room
[09:03:51] Marco Hogewoning joins the room
[09:03:58] Sandra Murphy joins the room
[09:04:14] Kiran Makhijani joins the room
[09:04:36] Carlos Bernardos joins the room
[09:04:48] Carlos Bernardos leaves the room
[09:05:14] Carlos Bernardos joins the room
[09:05:21] Igor Gashinsky joins the room
[09:05:30] <Vidhi Goel> time of the day doesn't matter too much during COVID times
[09:05:30] Ken Takayama joins the room
[09:05:36] Igor Gashinsky leaves the room
[09:05:41] <Chris Lemmons> Meh, enough stuff revolves around American time zones. Showing up at 2am for a meeting every once in a while keeps us humble. :)
[09:05:43] Carlos Bernardos leaves the room
[09:06:01] <Rodney Van Meter> @Chris indeed :-)
[09:06:04] Stewart Bryant joins the room
[09:06:31] Greg White joins the room
[09:06:39] Luigi Iannone joins the room
[09:06:43] <Jonathan Hoyland> Did GAIA meet?
[09:07:19] <Chris Lemmons> Doing that slide in the last meeting of the week saves slightly on dark blue pixels. :)
[09:07:31] Carlos Bernardos joins the room
[09:07:31] Wesley Eddy joins the room
[09:07:32] Peter Heist joins the room
[09:07:45] slm joins the room
[09:08:06] Igor Gashinsky joins the room
[09:08:54] Niels ten Oever joins the room
[09:10:03] Niels ten Oever leaves the room
[09:10:06] Niels ten Oever joins the room
[09:10:44] Cheng Zhou joins the room
[09:11:20] Alexey Melnikov joins the room
[09:11:25] Yun Chung joins the room
[09:11:48] <Jonathan Hoyland> +1 to ANRP talks being a highlight of the week.
[09:11:51] Niels ten Oever leaves the room
[09:12:11] Mohit Sethi joins the room
[09:12:19] Marco Davids leaves the room
[09:12:19] Luigi Iannone leaves the room
[09:12:24] Luigi Iannone joins the room
[09:12:40] Niels ten Oever joins the room
[09:12:58] <Lars Eggert> pretty clipped audio here?
[09:13:00] Paolo Saviano joins the room
[09:13:01] <Chris Lemmons> Audio clipping for anybody else? :/
[09:13:06] <Rodney Van Meter> Here, too.
[09:13:08] <Daniam Henriques> yeah clipping for me
[09:13:09] <Colin Perkins> Yeah, clipping here too
[09:13:09] <Greg White> yes
[09:13:11] <Chris Lemmons> Alas.
[09:13:11] <Ayush Mishra> Here too :(
[09:13:12] <Brian Trammell> anyone else have a 4-6Hz clip?
[09:13:18] <Jonathan Morton> it's choppy, rather than clipped, I think
[09:13:25] <Olaf Kolkman> Here too
[09:13:28] <Meetecho> Looking into this
[09:13:32] <Mat Ford> choppppppy
[09:13:35] <Chris Lemmons> Yeah, I think you're right, Jonathan.
[09:13:41] Peter Koch leaves the room
[09:13:41] <Brian Trammell> seems like whatever transsampling is happening on video interconnect is dropping frames regularly
[09:13:45] Peter Koch joins the room
[09:13:51] <Brian Trammell> cylon mode
[09:14:12] <Chris Lemmons> It's "Meetecho's Robot". Toaster needs an upgrade? :)
[09:14:12] Alessandro Toppi joins the room
[09:14:13] <Jonathan Morton> better than dalek mode
[09:14:23] <Szilveszter Nadas> (very similar to the bluetooth issue I had with firefox)
[09:14:35] Luigi Iannone leaves the room
[09:14:54] Laurent Ciavaglia leaves the room
[09:15:04] <Brian Trammell> this is on video though. hope the clipping isn't baked into the video's audio track.
[09:15:10] <Brian Trammell> (recorded video, I mean)
[09:15:16] Jennifer Gabriel joins the room
[09:15:34] <Colin Perkins> The recordings are on irtf.org/anrp - they seems okay when I played them
[09:15:42] <Rodney Van Meter> Links to slides and papers and a recording at https://irtf.org/anrp/
[09:15:45] Luigi Iannone joins the room
[09:16:06] <Chris Lemmons> Thanks for links.
[09:16:11] Igor Gashinsky leaves the room
[09:16:14] <Spencer Dawkins> @Brian, in a perfect world, we would upload this video to Youtube directly :-)
[09:16:16] Jordi Paillisse joins the room
[09:16:27] Yoshifumi Nishida joins the room
[09:16:27] Nitin Batta leaves the room
[09:16:42] Alissa Cooper leaves the room
[09:17:07] <Mat Ford> Colin - is your audio disconnected?
[09:17:21] <Colin Perkins> I think I'm muted
[09:17:22] <Chris Lemmons> In a perfect world, we would be hearing him over physical air in Bangkok. :)
[09:17:40] <Mat Ford> yeah, I figured you would be, just noticed choppy audio when I connected until you muted
[09:17:47] Ruediger Geib joins the room
[09:17:55] <Meetecho> This is currently being captured by a browser using a loopback approach, which worked nicely for the plenary for instance. It sounds fine on the laptop itself, so there may indeed be some resampling issue during the capture phase for that video
[09:18:02] <Meetecho> Checking what else we can do
[09:18:23] Bruno Rijsman leaves the room
[09:19:07] <Jonathan Morton> is it Firefox or Chrome?
[09:19:25] <Jonathan Morton> anecdotaly Chrome seems to have fewer problems
[09:19:39] <Meetecho> It's Firefox, as it's easier to capture system audio that way
[09:19:46] Jay Daley leaves the room
[09:20:00] Ulrich Wisser leaves the room
[09:20:55] Bruno Rijsman joins the room
[09:21:28] Bruno Rijsman leaves the room
[09:21:40] <Olaf Kolkman> fixed!
[09:21:44] <Chris Lemmons> Hey, it's better!
[09:21:45] <Colin Perkins> Audio just improved here
[09:21:45] <Alessandro Amirante> tuned it
[09:21:45] <Mat Ford> yay!
[09:21:46] <Jonathan Hoyland> Oooh, nice audio now
[09:21:50] <Jonathan Morton> yes, sudden improvement
[09:21:52] <Chris Lemmons> Thanks, Meetecho.
[09:21:57] <Olaf Kolkman> Don't know what you did -- but you did it
[09:22:01] <Meetecho> Ack, sorry for the disruption!
[09:22:06] <Mat Ford> my ears thank you
[09:22:09] <Meetecho> :)
[09:22:20] <Jonathan Hoyland> Well done Meetecho, thanks!
[09:22:23] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> Thanks Meetecho!
[09:22:33] Luigi Iannone leaves the room
[09:22:36] <Jordi Paillisse> thanks meetecho!
[09:22:52] Frank Hartung joins the room
[09:23:10] Alessandro Toppi leaves the room
[09:23:53] Michael Breuer joins the room
[09:25:08] Michael Breuer leaves the room
[09:25:16] Paolo Saviano leaves the room
[09:25:23] Frank Hartung leaves the room
[09:25:37] Toerless Eckert joins the room
[09:25:46] Ryan Cross leaves the room
[09:27:17] Richard Scheffenegger joins the room
[09:27:48] <Szilveszter Nadas> Meetecho: out of curiosity how did you fix it?
[09:29:03] <Meetecho> An issue in the streaming laptop, having multiple vlc sessions open
[09:29:12] <Meetecho> Apparently idle ones took resources too
[09:29:22] Dirk Hugo leaves the room
[09:29:44] <Meetecho> We had them all pre-opened to ensure a smoother change from talk to talk
[09:30:52] Alessandro Toppi joins the room
[09:32:25] Alessandro Toppi leaves the room
[09:33:01] Dirk Hugo joins the room
[09:33:04] <Rodney Van Meter> Inter-city traffic modeled as *product* of populations.  Interesting
idea.  Assumes popular _services_ are distributed proportional to
population.  Also assumes language/cultural/interest homogeneity?
[09:33:43] <Rodney Van Meter> Nice pics
[09:34:12] Ronald in 't Velt joins the room
[09:34:38] <Brian Trammell> yep. excellent illustration of a pretty cool insight.
[09:34:40] <Niels ten Oever> This talk is very well structured and presented, props to author/presenter!
[09:34:52] <Rick Taylor> +1
[09:35:16] Dirk Hugo leaves the room
[09:35:19] Dirk Kutscher joins the room
[09:35:19] Dirk Hugo joins the room
[09:35:23] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> Thanks, yes finding the right TM was challenging. So we picked 2 simple ones which are interesting to analyze.
[09:36:02] <Brian Trammell> interesting that Random appears that close to the pareto frontier
[09:36:05] <Rodney Van Meter> Kinda startling getting a reply from the presenter while he's talking :-).
[09:36:14] <Brian Trammell> hah yep
[09:36:37] <Spencer Dawkins> startling in a good way - thank you, Debopam!
[09:36:37] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> :)
[09:36:54] <Rodney Van Meter> An advantage to prerecorded talk + live Q&amp;A I had never thought of.
[09:37:18] <frodek> Fortunate to be living at 69.5 latitude
[09:37:34] <Brian Trammell> especially in the summer
[09:38:00] <Rick Taylor> Amazon's 51.9 is interesting - I'm at 52!
[09:38:01] <Christian Hopps> @Rodney experienced this at the most recent netdev.. it can be very useful.
[09:39:49] <Olaf Kolkman> Excellent talk indeed!
[09:39:56] <Ayush Mishra> @Debopam thanks for the excellent talk!
[09:40:12] <Spencer Dawkins> This is especially well presented.
[09:41:45] <Jonathan Morton> indeed it is
[09:42:10] Alexey Melnikov leaves the room
[09:42:23] <Jonathan Hoyland> +1 Spencer. Really well delivered.
[09:42:25] <slm> i agree with all kudos to the presenter - excellently presented of fascinating work.  not a common combination.
[09:43:47] Harin Sarda joins the room
[09:44:01] artur joins the room
[09:44:08] <Jonathan Hoyland> I wonder if it would ever be more efficient to hold a packet in anticipation of a new link being formed in future.
[09:44:47] <Jonathan Morton> only if that can be predicted to occur within milliseconds, which is not really the case here
[09:45:43] <Jonathan Hoyland> Maybe if the channel was under establishment? I guess not, if the variance in it is measured in seconds.
[09:45:47] <Rick Taylor> @JHoyland - that store and forward model is being explored in the DTN WG - it's a different model, you have to give up IP as your packet format beyond Earth orbit
[09:46:35] <Rick Taylor> 23 min rtt to Mars
[09:46:59] <Ayush Mishra> We could even possibly wait at the ground station till the "stars align" since satellite trajectories are highly predictable. Wonder what the trade-offs would be over there
[09:47:14] <Jonathan Morton> yes, DTN is for path latencies in the seconds to minutes to hours - Starlink is a fraction of a second globally
[09:47:44] <Rick Taylor> Exactly - the latencies are still in the realm of acceptable for IP
[09:48:26] <Jonathan Hoyland> If you talk to CDNs or maybe IXPs you could probably get very fine grained data on exact data trajectory densities.
[09:49:47] <Colin Perkins> A little quiet?
[09:50:18] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> I wonder if it would ever be more efficient to hold a packet in anticipation of a new link being formed in future. -&gt; Yes this might make sense, although it increases buffer overhead at the ingress. But there is an interesting tradeoff space to analyze.
[09:50:54] Matthew joins the room
[09:51:29] Harin Sarda leaves the room
[09:51:55] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> If you talk to CDNs or maybe IXPs you could probably get very fine grained data on exact data trajectory densities. -&gt; Sure, agreed. We are trying to get in touch with a CDN and get some data from them. Any pointer is highly appreciated. :)
[09:53:00] <Jonathan Morton> Jake Holland from Akamai is present here
[09:53:06] Jordi Paillisse leaves the room
[09:53:13] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> Thanks everyone for the nice questions! You can always reach me at debopam.bhattacherjee@inf.ethz.ch
[09:53:15] <Rodney Van Meter> (Apologies to Georgia for question to Debopam:)
[09:53:32] <Rodney Van Meter> We're simulating quantum networks, and are looking for good traffic models.
[09:53:37] <Rodney Van Meter> References appreciated!
[09:53:45] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> Thanks Jonathan!
[09:54:32] Jordi Paillisse joins the room
[09:54:50] <Jake Holland> you can write to me, sure.  no promises on whether we can release data, but we sometimes can explore these kinds of questions in some ways, and I can look into getting you in touch with the right contacts.
[09:55:18] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> Thanks Jake. Highly appreciated :)
[09:56:04] <Jake Holland> might very well fizzle tho, just to set expectations.  but i'm generally supportive and would love to do what i can to get this modeled well and be able to draw good conclusions.
[09:56:50] <Spencer Dawkins> "Bob" and "Alice" are never going away - they'll live forever in networking :-)
[09:57:00] Vidhi Goel leaves the room
[09:57:07] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> I understand Jake :) Thanks.
[09:59:57] Jie Yang joins the room
[10:00:00] Richard Scheffenegger leaves the room
[10:02:18] <Jonathan Hoyland> @Georgia does this assume that every flow is single path / could a user improve their anonymity by using multiple routes?
[10:02:24] csp leaves the room
[10:02:28] ghwood is now known as undefined[m]
[10:02:28] Greg Wood leaves the room
[10:04:33] Niels ten Oever leaves the room
[10:04:39] Niels ten Oever joins the room
[10:05:34] Mohit Sethi leaves the room
[10:06:27] <Georgia Fragkouli> @Jonathan not exactly, as the attacker we are examining here has access to the flows pattern at the source ISP and the aggregates at the last hop ISP, so multiple routes do not matter.
[10:07:15] Simon Hicks joins the room
[10:08:21] Zheng Zhang leaves the room
[10:08:56] <Spencer Dawkins> @Jonthan and @Georgia, I would expect that your scheduling across multiple paths would have a lot to do with that. Also, there are fairly well-understood patterns of access networking that don't have the same operator for at least one end - for instance, using both 5G cellular and wifi access to a wireline operator.
[10:09:15] andrew_campling leaves the room
[10:09:49] <Rodney Van Meter> good yalk
[10:09:56] <Rodney Van Meter> talk
[10:11:04] Kaveh Ranjbar joins the room
[10:11:33] <Jonathan Hoyland> The idea of how to force the ISP to be honest is also super interesting.
[10:11:40] <Spencer Dawkins> And thank you, @Georgia, for your talk!
[10:12:06] <Jonathan Hoyland> I can't decide whether I think it would be better to use game theory or auditors.
[10:13:15] <Sandra Murphy> another well done talk!
[10:15:55] Oliver Borchert leaves the room
[10:16:04] Oliver Borchert joins the room
[10:16:24] Oliver Borchert leaves the room
[10:16:57] Oliver Borchert joins the room
[10:17:33] Kaveh Ranjbar leaves the room
[10:17:52] <Jonathan Hoyland> Really good talk, really enjoyed it, thanks :)
[10:18:10] <Brian Trammell> +1
[10:18:33] Zhenbin Li leaves the room
[10:18:46] Jie Yang leaves the room
[10:19:10] Zhenbin Li joins the room
[10:19:22] Zhenbin Li leaves the room
[10:19:25] Zhenbin Li joins the room
[10:19:36] <Spencer Dawkins> I have a standing Friday zoom call for tacos every week. I love the choice of algorithm names.
[10:19:54] <Jake Holland> i'm gonna start working on the taco cc right now.
[10:19:59] Zhenbin Li leaves the room
[10:20:02] Zhenbin Li joins the room
[10:20:04] <Toerless Eckert> -1, now i am totally hungry ;-(
[10:20:19] <Rodney Van Meter> I live in Japan. Good tacos are hard to find :-(.
[10:20:20] <Brian Trammell> yeah it's lunchtime here and i think i might go make some pear tacos.
[10:20:30] <jhoyla> :joy: @Toerless me too!
[10:20:39] <Jonathan Morton> I'll retaliate by designing an AQM called MÄMMI
[10:21:03] <Jake Holland> gotta say, i *love* this framing.
[10:21:24] <Chris Lemmons> Yeah, this is really good.
[10:21:30] <Jonathan Hoyland> Me too
[10:21:41] <Toerless Eckert> the reference should of course be peach
[10:21:47] <Toerless Eckert> we wan all peachy CC
[10:21:55] <Spencer Dawkins> @Brian - if you make pear tacos, apparently you'll starve.
[10:22:36] <Jonathan Hoyland> Surely it's the pears that will starve :P
[10:22:46] Justin Iurman joins the room
[10:22:58] <Brian Trammell> kudos to all the speakers and the selection committee -- this is the best set of ANRP talks I can recall.
[10:23:13] Luis Contreras joins the room
[10:23:56] <Christian Hopps> Jaz-Z uses Taco, I'm sold.
[10:23:59] <Juhamatti Kuusisaari> +1 for MÄMMI AQM
[10:24:07] Zhenbin Li leaves the room
[10:24:09] <Jonathan Hoyland> Even Beyoncé can't get fiber.
[10:24:13] Riccardo Nanni leaves the room
[10:24:33] <Olaf Kolkman> ROFL @Jonathan
[10:24:40] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> :D
[10:24:43] Zhenbin Li joins the room
[10:24:43] Zhenbin Li leaves the room
[10:24:46] Zhenbin Li joins the room
[10:25:03] <Olaf Kolkman> Engaging talk!
[10:25:17] Zhenbin Li leaves the room
[10:25:17] Marco Liebsch joins the room
[10:25:20] Zhenbin Li joins the room
[10:25:33] Marco Liebsch leaves the room
[10:25:46] <Niels ten Oever> The talks in this session are off the charts
[10:25:52] Bob Briscoe joins the room
[10:26:01] <Spencer Dawkins> @Ranysha - I wish you'd been in Internet Congestion Control Research Group like three hours ago. This is great.
[10:26:10] <Jonathan Hoyland> Sounds fair to me. I listen to Beyoncé ~9X more often than Jay-Z.
[10:26:13] <Rodney Van Meter> Hmm, local ecosystem is entitled fight off newcomer invasive species?
[10:26:25] <Jake Holland> I wish she'd been there 15 years ago, actually :)
[10:26:27] Richard Scheffenegger joins the room
[10:26:59] <Jonathan Morton> indeed
[10:27:31] <Spencer Dawkins> I would not hate it if that had happened ...
"It is always the right time to do the right thing"
[10:27:53] <Jake Holland> tru dat.
[10:27:57] Richard Scheffenegger leaves the room
[10:28:05] <Jake Holland> (that J-Z for +1, I think)
[10:28:06] <Brian Trammell> given that we do not have a time machine: Ranysha, please consider coming to ICCRG at IETF 110.
[10:28:43] <Jonathan Morton> +1
[10:29:10] <Juhamatti Kuusisaari> Great properties.
[10:29:15] <Jonathan Hoyland> Or where no-one uses TCP. If QUIC wins out over TLS say.
[10:29:40] Carlos Bernardos leaves the room
[10:30:12] Zhenbin Li leaves the room
[10:30:23] Zhenbin Li joins the room
[10:30:43] <Rodney Van Meter> I teach Jain's fairness index in my OS class, so I'm loving this.
[10:31:02] <Jonathan Morton> having read the actual paper, we're already planning to incorporate explicitly measuring "harm" in our test suite
[10:31:18] <Jonathan Hoyland> This doesn't seem right. We should compare Jay-Z using pear
[10:31:37] <Jonathan Hoyland> He's not going to _not_ download Windows. He's just going to use Pear.
[10:31:43] <Greg White> +1
[10:32:05] <Ayush Mishra> +1
[10:32:28] <Georgia Fragkouli> @Spencer You mean that if the user splits the flow across different ISPs/reporting points, the attacker can less reliable trace flows to aggregates? If so, I believe you are right, as the attacker has to also find out that the flow is split and then merge the different flow components appearing at different reporting points. However in this paper we don't explore this particular threat model
[10:32:54] <jhoyla> :joy: I spoke too soon.
[10:32:59] <Greg White> +1
[10:33:10] <Brian Trammell> yep, wait for it :)
[10:33:27] <Spencer Dawkins> #Georgia - right, and that wasn't intended as a criticism. My intern couldn't research everything worth researching, either :D
[10:33:30] Markku Kojo joins the room
[10:34:27] <Spencer Dawkins> A lot of people ARE single-homed, and if the same operator is at both ends, you're exactly in the situation you were researching.
[10:34:50] <Rodney Van Meter> I think Beyoncé and Jay-Z are probably multi-homed :-).
[10:35:00] <Olaf Kolkman> Where did the tomato come from?
[10:35:10] Ruediger Geib leaves the room
[10:35:14] <Jonathan Hoyland> @Olaf history
[10:35:17] <Christian Hopps> Tomato is not status quo
[10:35:20] <Jonathan Morton> it was an example of an obsolete CC
[10:35:22] <Christian Hopps> (legacy not used)
[10:35:30] <Chris Lemmons> Tomato is a potential predecessor to pear. It used to be status quo but no longer is.
[10:35:37] <Ayush Mishra> How do we define the status quo in a heterogeneous congestion control environment?
[10:35:38] Cheng Zhou leaves the room
[10:35:40] <Olaf Kolkman> thnxs
[10:35:53] <Simon Hicks> fine on the use of the concept, but in content and regulatory issues we use "harm" as the term for harmful content on the internet.  Could we move to a different word for the concept here.  Else we will cause confusion
[10:35:55] <Jonathan Hoyland> Define it as a more complex CCA?
[10:36:04] <Jonathan Morton> think: tomato = reno, pear = cubic, taco is fancy whizbang idea
[10:36:10] <Spencer Dawkins> @Ayush, that was exactly one of the discussions in ICCRG.
[10:36:18] Yoshifumi Nishida leaves the room
[10:36:23] Yoshifumi Nishida joins the room
[10:36:29] <Ayush Mishra> @Spencer I was there! :)
[10:36:29] Ruediger Geib joins the room
[10:36:31] Ruediger Geib leaves the room
[10:36:33] Ruediger Geib joins the room
[10:36:42] <Spencer Dawkins> :D
[10:37:12] <Juhamatti Kuusisaari> Is Reno really unused, though?
[10:37:40] <Jonathan Morton> okay, vegas then
[10:37:46] <Ayush Mishra> Netflix uses Reno to deliver video, at least they did a year ago
[10:37:49] <Peter Heist> outstanding. we do plan to update some recent tests in light of this.
[10:38:28] Lars Eggert leaves the room
[10:40:03] Renan Krishna leaves the room
[10:40:11] Renan Krishna joins the room
[10:40:16] <Jonathan Hoyland> Also, with big network topology changes you have to redo the analysis.
[10:40:49] Jana Iyengar joins the room
[10:40:54] <Jonathan Hoyland> For example, once StarLink becomes a major shuffler of bits
[10:41:02] <slm> great talk. love things that change accepted world view, particularly of metrics
[10:42:41] <Christian Hopps> i.e., forensic use of the metric on known failures
[10:42:47] <Jonathan Hoyland> Also, can we go back and look at all the CCAs that were rejected in the past and reevaluating them?
[10:43:19] <Jonathan Hoyland> re-evaluate*
[10:45:31] <Jonathan Hoyland> That's using to different statuses quo, no?
[10:45:48] <Jonathan Hoyland> (also, what's the plural of status quo?)
[10:46:40] <Brian Trammell> ...in iccrg / on the iccrg list :)
[10:47:35] Kazuaki Ueda leaves the room
[10:47:37] Kazuaki Ueda joins the room
[10:48:23] <Jonathan Morton> I think "status quo" is treated as an uncountable noun, so has no plural
[10:49:36] <Jana Iyengar> +1 to Bob
[10:49:51] <Ayush Mishra> +1 to Bob
[10:50:31] <Christian Hopps> Well wha'ts the metric when you have a video call (infinite) vs Jay-Z's download (time to complete)? multi-variable.
[10:50:39] <Jonathan Hoyland> With a phone call you might consider that a _longer_ time to completion shows a better outcome :P
[10:50:52] <Jake Holland> this was covered under the different metrics listed.  this was a 5-dimensional space iirc.
[10:50:58] <Ayush Mishra> on a similar note, QoS-based fairness and bandwidth fairness are not always the same for video delivery
[10:51:03] <Jonathan Hoyland> Minimum maximum harm?
[10:51:20] <Jake Holland> but i'm not sure it's quite enough, because you get different answers if you start after or before the reference flow, for instance.
[10:52:16] <Jonathan Morton> clearly you have to test a variety of scenarios and workloads, and acknowledge that different workloads are sensitive to different harm dimensions
[10:52:18] <Jonathan Hoyland> Can I also say that apart from the great content, the slides were _epic_.
[10:52:56] Toerless Eckert leaves the room
[10:53:00] Toerless Eckert joins the room
[10:53:05] <Jonathan Morton> at the same time, you can often easily find a really big harm scenario and stop there
[10:53:23] <Jake Holland> (or maybe even fix the proposal in response)
[10:53:36] <Ayush Mishra> @Christian, I don't think the two have to share a metric. If pear was the status quo, I care about comparing pear's best metric with pear and with taco
[10:53:51] Toerless Eckert leaves the room
[10:54:20] <Jonathan Morton> I do recommend carefully reading the actual paper
[10:54:57] <Rodney Van Meter> @Colin do this year's winners get a trip to the nest in-person meeting?
[10:55:06] <Rodney Van Meter> s/nest/next/
[10:55:13] <Rodney Van Meter> (Can't type while eating dinner)
[10:55:16] <Colin Perkins> We're going to try to arrange that, yes
[10:55:22] <Jonathan Hoyland> End user happiness?
[10:55:36] <Bob Briscoe> I tried to explain the point I just made here: https://bobbriscoe.net/pubs.html#FQ_v_E2E
[10:55:39] <Chris Lemmons> As measured with electrodes in their brains. :)
[10:55:41] <Jake Holland> i do feel like this paper needs further fleshing out, but it's a very promising direction for how to quantify something more useful than fairness.
[10:56:35] <Spencer Dawkins> @Jake, did she say when she's graduating? :-)
[10:56:42] <Szilveszter Nadas> Bob, I do find your paper very useful in this area.
[10:56:47] <Debopam Bhattacherjee> In the context of DC there is some work towards maximizing happiness: https://vojislav.net/files/hotcloud19-paper-dukic.pdf
[10:57:13] <Bob Briscoe> You can't measure benefit in the network, but you can measure cost (the congestion externality), and that's what should be done.
[10:57:27] Kiran Makhijani leaves the room
[10:57:29] <Jonathan Hoyland> Well done to Colin and the ANRP for finding such awesome talks!
[10:57:33] <Ranysha Ware> thanks for the kind feedback everyone
[10:57:33] Julien Maisonneuve leaves the room
[10:57:34] Jennifer Gabriel leaves the room
[10:57:34] Lv Yunping leaves the room
[10:57:34] Francois Ortolan leaves the room
[10:57:35] Mihail Yanev leaves the room
[10:57:38] Dirk Hugo leaves the room
[10:57:40] <Olaf Kolkman> Thanks... good use of time !
[10:57:40] Mat Ford leaves the room
[10:57:41] Frode Kileng leaves the room
[10:57:42] <Szilveszter Nadas> Bob, do you have more material on this cost?
[10:57:43] <Chris Lemmons> Thank you very much to the selection committee and the speakers. This was very good.
[10:57:44] Ken Takayama leaves the room
[10:57:44] <Brian Trammell> \o
[10:57:46] <Jake Holland> @spencer: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rware/ says she's 3rd year phd candidate
[10:57:47] Greg White leaves the room
[10:57:47] Yoshifumi Nishida leaves the room
[10:57:49] Joakim Misund leaves the room
[10:57:51] <Simon Hicks> thanks all
[10:57:51] <Niels ten Oever> Excellent work, excellent session. Thanks all presenters and convenors!
[10:57:51] <Brian Trammell> thanks for the best irtfopen in a long, long time
[10:57:53] Yoshifumi Nishida joins the room
[10:57:55] Peter Heist leaves the room
[10:57:56] Oliver Borchert leaves the room
[10:57:58] Wesley Eddy leaves the room
[10:57:58] <Christian Hopps> Thank you, Ranysha.
[10:57:59] Wojciech Kozlowski leaves the room
[10:57:59] Ranysha Ware leaves the room
[10:58:00] <Szilveszter Nadas> thanks all
[10:58:01] Simon Hicks leaves the room
[10:58:02] <Colin Perkins> Please nominate for next year https://irtf.org/anrp/
[10:58:02] <Georgia Fragkouli> Thank you all!
[10:58:02] <Kazuaki Ueda> Thanks for excellent talks
[10:58:05] Debopam Bhattacherjee leaves the room
[10:58:06] Stephen McQuistin leaves the room
[10:58:10] <Ruediger Geib> thanks, long week, nice meeting.
[10:58:11] Jonathan Hoyland leaves the room
[10:58:13] Juhamatti Kuusisaari leaves the room
[10:58:16] <Ayush Mishra> Thank you all!
[10:58:19] <Bob Briscoe> THank you.
[10:58:19] Ruediger Geib leaves the room
[10:58:19] <Spencer Dawkins> +1 Brian. I haven't been to all of them (AD conflicts), but yes.
[10:58:25] Niels ten Oever leaves the room
[10:58:27] Yoshifumi Nishida leaves the room
[10:58:27] <Christian Hopps> oh right, ietf is done now....
[10:58:31] Spencer Dawkins leaves the room
[10:58:33] Ayush Mishra leaves the room
[10:58:40] Colin Perkins leaves the room
[10:58:48] Meetecho leaves the room
[10:58:49] Peter Koch leaves the room
[10:58:49] David Millman leaves the room
[10:58:51] james welch leaves the room
[10:58:52] Justin Iurman leaves the room
[10:58:57] Christian Hopps leaves the room
[10:58:57] Sandra Murphy leaves the room
[10:58:57] Stuart Card leaves the room
[10:58:57] Loren McIntyre leaves the room
[10:58:57] Dirk Kutscher leaves the room
[10:58:57] Rick Taylor leaves the room
[10:58:58] Stewart Bryant leaves the room
[10:58:58] Jordi Paillisse leaves the room
[10:58:58] Marco Hogewoning leaves the room
[10:58:58] Daniam Henriques leaves the room
[10:58:58] Zhenbin Li leaves the room
[10:58:58] Jana Iyengar leaves the room
[10:58:58] Georgia Fragkouli leaves the room
[10:58:58] Rodney Van Meter leaves the room
[10:58:58] Mike English leaves the room
[10:58:58] Stuart Cheshire leaves the room
[10:58:58] Olaf Kolkman leaves the room
[10:58:58] Kazuaki Ueda leaves the room
[10:58:58] Markku Kojo leaves the room
[10:58:58] Ronald in 't Velt leaves the room
[10:58:58] Juan Cerezo leaves the room
[10:58:58] Luis Contreras leaves the room
[10:58:59] Renan Krishna leaves the room
[10:58:59] Alessandro Amirante leaves the room
[10:58:59] Jonathan Morton leaves the room
[10:58:59] Valery Smyslov leaves the room
[10:58:59] Bob Briscoe leaves the room
[10:58:59] Chris Lemmons leaves the room
[10:58:59] Yun Chung leaves the room
[10:58:59] Meetecho Robot leaves the room
[10:58:59] Szilveszter Nadas leaves the room
[10:58:59] Brian Trammell leaves the room
[10:58:59] Joseph Kalfa leaves the room
[10:58:59] Jake Holland leaves the room
[11:00:53] jhoyla leaves the room
[11:15:44] frodek leaves the room
[15:14:49] slm leaves the room
[16:45:02] artur leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[16:51:52] slm joins the room
[18:50:14] slm leaves the room
[20:33:18] slm joins the room
[21:57:01] slm leaves the room
[23:03:51] spencerdawkins leaves the room