IETF
iri@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, 30 March 2012< ^ >
stpeter has set the subject to: IRI WG | IETF Note Well applies | http://tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/minutes
Room Configuration

GMT+0
[04:33:10] JOUGASHIMA joins the room
[07:01:34] stpeter joins the room
[08:49:06] yone joins the room
[08:50:31] yone leaves the room: コンピューターが休止します
[08:56:32] Dominik Elsbroek joins the room
[08:57:52] Dominik Elsbroek leaves the room
[09:07:24] yone joins the room
[09:08:29] JOUGASHIMA is now known as Martin Dürst
[09:12:19] Tobia Castaldi joins the room
[09:14:23] Dominik Elsbroek joins the room
[09:14:24] MeetechoAudio joins the room
[09:14:53] Martin Duerst joins the room
[09:16:49] Peter joins the room
[09:18:44] <stpeter> hi Martin
[09:18:51] <stpeter> you say there is lots of echo?
[09:19:02] <Martin Duerst> echo is no problem now
[09:22:40] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: IRI WG IETF 83
[09:23:01] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: Note Well
[09:23:24] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: IRI WG IETF 83
[09:23:54] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: Note Well
[09:24:02] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: Logistics
[09:24:32] Dave Thaler joins the room
[09:24:35] resnick joins the room
[09:24:54] spromano joins the room
[09:24:59] John Klensin joins the room
[09:25:04] <Dave Thaler> use Mic: if you want me to relay something at the mic
[09:25:13] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: Agenda Bashing (1)
[09:25:25] <Martin Dürst> Peter, minutes was me, but that's not enough
[09:25:44] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentazione interrotta
[09:26:05] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: Overview
[09:26:16] <Dave Thaler> audio is fair, not great
[09:26:25] <Dave Thaler> (for hearing martin)
[09:26:25] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: Background
[09:26:45] <Dave Thaler> audio getting worse
[09:26:52] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: IRI Examples
[09:26:53] John Klensin leaves the room
[09:27:17] John Klensin joins the room
[09:27:23] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 5: Please Don’t Forget
[09:27:48] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 6: Issues Closed since IETF 82
[09:28:11] Lorenzo Miniero joins the room
[09:28:33] John Klensin leaves the room
[09:29:00] John Klensin joins the room
[09:29:38] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 7: Open Issues: Cleanup
[09:30:10] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 8: Open Issues: Editorial
[09:30:12] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 7: Open Issues: Cleanup
[09:30:44] <John Klensin> I'm hearing _many_ echos on everything Martin is saying -- incomprehensive on Meetecho
[09:31:32] <Dave Thaler> we hear no echoes in the room, just choppy audio sometimes
[09:32:13] <Martin Dürst> I hear echo too, but it's just me, so my brain can filter it out reasonably well.
[09:32:18] John Klensin leaves the room
[09:32:25] <Tobia Castaldi> :)
[09:32:38] <Martin Dürst> I don't hear much echo if I'm not speaking
[09:33:45] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 8: Open Issues: Editorial
[09:34:15] Klensin joins the room
[09:35:33] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 9: Please Help Reviewing
[09:35:37] <Klensin> On standard audio, Martin sounds like he is speaking from underwater, but is comprehensible without problems. So I assume my earlier problem was with meetecho only
[09:36:58] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentazione interrotta
[09:37:32] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: draft-ietf-iri-bidi-guidelines-02 Issues
[09:37:42] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: draft-ietf-iri-bidi-guidelines-02 Issues
[09:37:46] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: Overview
[09:37:47] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: Bidi(rectionality) Basics
[09:37:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Klensin apparently the room mixer successfully suppresses the echo in the room but does not make the same good job for remote attendees... sorry about that
[09:38:30] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: IRI Bidi Concepts
[09:39:32] <Klensin> Lorenzo - makes sense, actually -- different optimizations. FWIW, the remote sounded consistent with multiple echo suppressors competing with each other. failing utterly, and creating echo bounce-back.
[09:39:49] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 5: Bidi IRI Goals
[09:41:31] <Klensin> I take back the kind words about the standard audio -- Martin a breaking up and is just barely comprehensible and sometimes not even that good.
[09:42:13] <Dave Thaler> in the room it's a bit better now than when we started on the previous draft's preso
[09:42:33] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 6: Bidi Open Issues: Editorial
[09:43:18] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 7: Bidi Open Issues: Characters
[09:44:13] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 8: Bidi Open Issues: Characters
[09:46:36] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 9: Bidi Open Issues: Serious
[09:56:34] <Martin Dürst> [only two days to go for April fool, maybe we can write an RFC about these characters]
[09:56:45] <Klensin> Mic: There are conventions in some of the CJK environments for just that. What we need is a pair of Unicode characters that mean "start of IRI" and "end of IRI" Dejo vu
[09:57:07] <Tobia Castaldi> Larry Masnter speaking
[09:58:50] <Klensin> Mic: The "lets solve the problem by not displaying "http://"" at all theory runs smack-on into the recent discussions about encouraging more https. But, yes, making another layer that does presentation may be the right model, but then there is a question as to whether IRIs add or reduce value
[10:00:45] <Martin Dürst> John, if we could sell the idea of start of IRI and end of IRI to the Unicode consortium, that might help
[10:01:42] <Martin Dürst> my hand is up
[10:03:29] hardie joins the room
[10:03:56] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 10: Bidi IRI Ordering Alternatives
[10:04:09] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 11: Bidi Open Issues: Procedural
[10:05:04] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 10: Bidi IRI Ordering Alternatives
[10:05:33] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentazione interrotta
[10:05:50] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: IRI WG IETF 83
[10:06:04] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: Benefits of testing
[10:06:21] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: Current testing
[10:06:49] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: Current Issues
[10:06:50] <Dave Thaler> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/slides/slides-83-iri-3.pdf
[10:06:59] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: Current Issues
[10:07:08] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 5: Defining testing Goals
[10:08:39] <Klensin> Martin, the "deja vu" part of that comment was because we had a long set of discussions, early on, about a requirement for standardized delimiters around URLs/URIs in running text. The conclusion (I was in the rough) was that it was unacceptable. I presume such deliminters as special Unicode characters would also be unacceptable. But, if we --and the varous HTML user environments-- really decided we wanted it, I assume we could propose it to UTC and make it very clear that, if they said "no, that is too applicaion-specific" (which I'd predict, but would be happy to be wrong) we would simply pick some private-use code points and squat on them for "private" use anywhere the Internet is used. However, it wouldn't solve the problem in practice any more than Larry's "standard character for 'http"" would because it would be hard to quickly get the characters onto keyboards worldwide quickly. Microsoft's ability to get keyboars built with two or three extra Windows-specific keys is actually a good sign, except that the use of those keys is a convience, not a necessity. I can think about ways to create that same situation using on-screen buttons, but I'd expect a lot of resistance.
[10:08:42] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: IRI WG IETF 83
[10:09:52] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentazione interrotta
[10:10:18] <Martin Dürst> Is that Thomas Roessler speaking?
[10:10:26] <Dave Thaler> yes
[10:11:55] <hardie> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#text-orientation is the CSS method work that includes presentation layer markup for vertical sideways text
[10:12:53] <hardie> Any w3c folks have status on that?
[10:15:25] <Martin Dürst> Ah, I finally got what Larry meant when he said "it may not be a ladder".
[10:15:42] <Martin Dürst> It's not a total order, indeed, more like a DAG.
[10:16:15] <Martin Dürst> If "ladder" is taken as "total order", then that's not what it is.
[10:16:36] <Martin Dürst> Most of the text came from RFC 3986.
[10:18:06] <Dave Thaler> yes
[10:18:57] Dominik Elsbroek leaves the room
[10:20:34] <Dave Thaler> It's difficult enough to reason about with different code on different boxes using different algorithms. There's enough security impact and interop impact that at least constraining it to a ladder is important IMO. If one implementation says A=B and C!=D, and another says A!=B and C=D then it's not a ladder and almost impossible to reason about.
[10:21:37] <Martin Dürst> Dave, you are exactly right for cases where behaviour has to be coordinated between various players.
[10:21:52] <Klensin> Dave: +1. Perhaps we need a different method type, not "IRI:" but "DWIM:".
[10:22:23] <Martin Dürst> The document also talks about things like "what should search engines do" (to optimize speed against false negatives), and so on.
[10:22:41] <Martin Dürst> In these cases, DAG is okay.
[10:23:23] resnick leaves the room
[10:23:42] <Martin Dürst> A specific IRI profile for precis won't work, because IRIs contain pieces from many different pre-existing protocols,...
[10:23:55] <Tobia Castaldi> bye all
[10:24:11] Tobia Castaldi leaves the room
[10:25:03] Klensin leaves the room
[10:25:13] Martin Duerst leaves the room
[10:25:41] yone leaves the room: コンピューターが休止します
[10:26:02] stpeter leaves the room: Disconnected: connection closed
[10:26:17] Peter leaves the room
[10:26:41] Lorenzo Miniero leaves the room
[10:27:11] MeetechoAudio leaves the room
[10:32:27] Lorenzo Miniero joins the room
[10:32:57] Lorenzo Miniero leaves the room
[10:35:48] hardie leaves the room
[10:36:20] hardie joins the room
[10:37:25] Martin Dürst leaves the room
[10:37:39] hardie leaves the room
[10:37:40] hardie joins the room
[10:42:10] Dominik Elsbroek joins the room
[10:43:21] yone joins the room
[10:44:18] yone leaves the room
[10:46:55] Dave Thaler leaves the room
[10:47:11] hardie leaves the room
[11:32:01] Dominik Elsbroek leaves the room
[11:38:22] Dominik Elsbroek joins the room
[11:39:20] spromano leaves the room
[11:50:05] Dominik Elsbroek leaves the room
[11:56:28] Dominik Elsbroek joins the room
[11:56:56] Dominik Elsbroek leaves the room
[11:58:02] Dominik Elsbroek joins the room
[12:03:43] Dominik Elsbroek leaves the room
[12:03:44] Dominik Elsbroek joins the room
[12:10:32] Martin Dürst joins the room
[12:33:35] Dominik Elsbroek leaves the room
[12:44:44] Dominik Elsbroek joins the room
[12:51:07] Martin Dürst leaves the room
[12:55:23] Dominik Elsbroek leaves the room
[16:27:02] Dominik Elsbroek joins the room
[16:43:10] Dominik Elsbroek leaves the room
[22:53:26] Martin Dürst joins the room
Powered by ejabberd Powered by Erlang Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional Valid CSS!