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[12:01:12] <Ted_Hardie> Hi Simon.
[12:01:15] <david.black> Who's going to be the jabber scribe?
[12:01:32] <Ted_Hardie> Just FYI, I did not prepare any slides to talk to you draft; I'm just planning to discuss it.
[12:02:43] <Simon Josefsson> Hi Ted. I probably cannot participate for the entire meeting, I have some other meetings as well. :-( Btw, thanks for talking about the draft.
[12:03:24] <david.black> Harald's test comes through ok on the multicast, although there's some background static
[12:05:44] <Ted_Hardie> No problem.
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[12:07:39] <david.black> "Participant" needs to include employer/sponsor (cf. "work for hire") in Note-Well and the like
[12:09:01] <david.black> Is someone in the room at least monitoring this channel?
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[12:09:17] <Barry Leiba> Yes.
[12:09:30] <Barry Leiba> I will channel anyone who wants to say something.
[12:09:36] <david.black> Great, thanks!
[12:09:40] <Ted_Hardie> Thanks, Barry
[12:10:02] <gtwassociates> thanks as well George Willingmyre
[12:13:19] <Ted_Hardie> Barry, can you also indicate where folks are in the agenda? I'm in another wg meeting, so not able to listen to the audio stream.
[12:13:46] <Barry Leiba> OK. Right now: "0915: Issues raised so fat at Last Call"
[12:13:58] <Barry Leiba> Harald is reviewing the issues.
[12:14:09] <Ted_Hardie> thanks
[12:15:06] <Barry Leiba> Any other issues?
[12:15:15] <david.black> Was "work for hire" on Harald's list??
[12:15:27] <Barry Leiba> Not by that name.
[12:15:40] <david.black> Was raised on list under that name against Section 5
[12:15:59] <Barry Leiba> I'll see if I can list them while they're still on the screen:
[12:16:21] <Barry Leiba> 1511 Incoming 5.10: Back-licence to document authors in resulting RFCs
[12:16:35] <Barry Leiba> 1514 Incoming 2: Section 1 should be normative
[12:16:48] <Barry Leiba> 1515 Incoming 5.6 "Contributor" used with 2 meanings
[12:17:05] <Barry Leiba> 1516 Incoming 5.7: stale reference to section 5.4?
[12:17:18] <Barry Leiba> 1517 Incoming 5.3: Right to sub-license
[12:17:30] <Barry Leiba> Unnumbered: Who maintains "legends"?
[12:17:32] <Barry Leiba> end of list.
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[12:18:03] <Barry Leiba> Shall I ask about "work for hire"?
[12:18:18] <david.black> Please ask Harald to add "work for hire". Was raised on list on 11/28 w/subject ISSUE: incoming 5: work for hire
[12:18:26] <Barry Leiba> ok
[12:18:41] <Barry Leiba> When he finishes this list....
[12:18:47] <david.black> Ok.
[12:18:50] <gtwassociates> are these 5 issues on line somewhere? I suppose they are in the email history but elsewhere?
[12:19:17] <Barry Leiba> Issue tracker?
[12:19:27] <gtwassociates> URL?
[12:19:34] <Barry Leiba> I don't have it; sorry.
[12:19:39] <Barry Leiba> I'll ask that too.
[12:20:02] <Ted_Hardie> go to https://rt.psg.com and click on 'ipr'
[12:20:21] <Simon Josefsson> Note that rfc2026 and earlier said 'major contributor' (lower case), and did not define 'major contributor'.
[12:20:26] <Ted_Hardie> username ietf, password ietf
[12:20:30] <Simon Josefsson> So the exact same text has not been there
[12:23:27] <Barry Leiba> Simon, do you want what you said echoed on the mike?
[12:23:52] <gtwassociates> thanks Ted got to the issues
[12:26:17] <david.black> URL for "work for hire" email: http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipr-wg/current/msg05322.html
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[12:29:37] <david.black> For "contribution" Roget's (thesaurus.com) suggests "significant addition"
[12:30:24] <Barry Leiba> Sent back to the mailing list for further discussion.
[12:30:50] <Barry Leiba> Now on 1516: Incoming 5.7: stale reference to section 5.4
[12:32:38] <david.black> "This section" could be read as 5.7 instead of all of 5, saying all of 5 is better
[12:32:50] <Barry Leiba> Now on 1517... Incoming 5.3: Right to sub-license
[12:34:33] <Barry Leiba> Now on the unnumbered issue: Who maintains "legends"?
[12:35:19] <Ted_Hardie> Sorry, why is "legends" in quotes?
[12:35:28] <Ted_Hardie> Do we not mean legends in the usual legal sense?
[12:35:29] <Barry Leiba> I don't know.
[12:35:42] <david.black> Read "legends" as "boilerplate", I think.
[12:35:50] <Ted_Hardie> That makes sense.
[12:36:02] <Ted_Hardie> thanks
[12:37:34] <david.black> Contributor has to be "obligated" to have dealt with "work for hire" - "assuming" isn't enough - in any case, Jorge's opinion is what matters.
[12:40:08] <Barry Leiba> Now on slide: 09:45... Instructions to the Trust
[12:40:18] <david.black> Barry - thanks for the help.
[12:40:31] <Barry Leiba> You're welcome.
[12:44:07] <david.black> Ted: "legends" does mean "boilerplate" - see Section 6 of the -incoming draft
[12:44:29] <Ted_Hardie> thanks
[12:45:09] <david.black> Who is at mike?
[12:45:34] <Barry Leiba> That was Olaf Kolkmann
[12:49:28] <Barry Leiba> Now on slide: 10:15 (we're well ahead of schedule)... Review of charter to verify that we're done.
[12:50:10] <Ted_Hardie> If I need to come out of SIPPING to present, can you let me know?
[12:50:14] <Barry Leiba> Checking milestones. Marking some "done".
[12:50:20] <Barry Leiba> Ted: OK
[12:50:26] <Ted_Hardie> thanks
[12:51:03] <Barry Leiba> Milestone for "RFC 3978 update to IESG for approval", changing date to Jan '08
[12:51:19] <Barry Leiba> Same for "GRanted rights advice to IESG for approval.
[12:51:41] <Barry Leiba> Delete milestones "1st draft of IPR advice doc" and "IPR advice to IESG for approval".
[12:51:54] <Barry Leiba> Change date for "close WG" to April '08
[12:52:01] <Barry Leiba> Is this right? Are we about done?
[12:52:11] <Barry Leiba> Room nods "yes"/
[12:52:29] <Barry Leiba> Ted: Can you come?
[12:52:37] <Ted_Hardie> Okay.
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[12:52:45] <Barry Leiba> On slide 10:30... Potential new items in the IPR area
[12:53:16] <Barry Leiba> Three presentations coming: Scott Brim, PHB, Ted Hardie.
[12:54:25] <Barry Leiba> For each presentation, one of these results:
[12:54:39] <Barry Leiba> 1. Proposal goes forward, but can still close WG.
[12:54:47] <Barry Leiba> 2. Proposal goes forward within the WG.
[12:54:54] <Barry Leiba> 3. Proposal is dropped.
[12:55:37] <Barry Leiba> Scott Brim is about to talk about draft-carpenter-ipr-patent-frswds-01
[12:57:11] <david.black> Scott's slides are in the meeting materials tool: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/70/materials.html
[12:57:20] <david.black> Search for IPR working group in the tool
[12:58:39] <Barry Leiba> Scott moved to the floor mike to speak for himself.
[12:58:44] <Barry Leiba> (Laughter in the room)
[12:59:48] <david.black> I agree with Scott, who is agreeing with Simon ;-)
[12:59:56] <Barry Leiba> Scott moves back to the front of the room.
[13:01:52] <gtwassociates> even term "open" is subject to different interpretations
[13:04:42] <david.black> The assertion that IETF results in general are useless to the free/open software community is nonsense.
[13:05:37] <david.black> There are specific areas of concern, but this is not a global IETF-wide problem.
[13:15:18] <david.black> Option 3: Drop proposal
[13:15:29] <Barry Leiba> No votes for 1 or 2, everyone who raised hands went for 3.
[13:15:30] <gtwassociates> drop
[13:15:31] <Barry Leiba> 3 goes.
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[13:16:05] <Barry Leiba> (Jabber votes just echoed off mike.)
[13:16:37] <Barry Leiba> PHB now presents "Standardizing IPR"
[13:27:51] <gtwassociates> associate myself with the speaker who suggested we get to the meat of the proposal
[13:32:51] <david.black> Problem: W3C terms are too restrictive. This puts lawyers in the approval path for participation in new IETF activities.
[13:34:12] <Barry Leiba> David: shall I get in the microphone queue with that?
[13:34:20] <david.black> Yes, please.
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[13:39:11] <david.black> Barry: Please say that I am an example of Ted's discussion - participating in the W3C is a last resort for me due to their patent policy.
[13:39:35] <Barry Leiba> yes
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[13:44:09] <david.black> Answer to Phil's question: NO!
[13:45:06] <david.black> Uncertainty about what standard will cover required lawyers to assume it will cover everything possible, pessimizing participation.
[13:48:44] <Barry Leiba> No votes for 1
[13:48:48] <Barry Leiba> No votes for 2
[13:48:58] <Barry Leiba> Broad consensus for 3
[13:49:01] <david.black> Option 3
[13:49:14] <Barry Leiba> Ted Hardie's turn...
[13:49:23] <david.black> There seems to be about a 5sec audio lag to here.
[13:49:34] <Barry Leiba> draft-josefsson-free-standards-howto-01
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[13:52:31] <david.black> Lawyer time comes with an opportunity cost - we almost certainly don't have unlimited call on Jorge's time.
[13:53:38] <david.black> Generally like Simon's draft and support the suggestion that lawyer time be spent on it.
[13:54:35] <Simon Josefsson> Who is speaking now?
[13:54:44] <david.black> Stefan Wenger (sp?)
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[13:57:11] <Barry Leiba> David: you support spending lawyer time... how about WG time?
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[13:57:32] <david.black> WG is a useful forum to consider additional points of view beyond Simon's views (which I seriously respect). Result can be better than "sum of parts",
[13:57:42] <david.black> So I do support WG time.
[13:57:54] <sbrim@jabber.org> is reciprocity acceptable to a sufficient portion of the free software community?
[13:57:59] <sbrim@jabber.org> (btw Stallman thinks it's okay)
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[14:00:02] <david.black> John's right about this WG being a distraction, unfortunately ...
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