[06:45:51] --- jas has left
[08:45:43] --- jas has joined
[10:15:55] --- jas has left
[10:16:16] --- jas has joined
[10:16:22] --- jas has left
[10:16:37] --- Simon Josefsson has joined
[10:18:56] --- Simon Josefsson has left
[10:18:58] --- Simon Josefsson has joined
[13:34:19] --- Thierry has joined
[13:42:34] --- gtw has joined
[14:03:28] --- gtw has left
[14:03:42] --- Thierry has left
[14:05:05] --- Barry Leiba has joined
[14:05:08] --- gtw has joined
[14:06:07] --- psavola has joined
[14:06:11] <Simon Josefsson> Anyone at the meeting? Having a jabber scribe would be useful. I'm participating remotely...
[14:06:32] --- Jim has joined
[14:07:17] --- dcrocker has joined
[14:07:38] <gtw> audio works at http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/
[14:08:24] --- avri has joined
[14:09:45] --- becarpenter has joined
[14:10:29] <becarpenter> Simon, we're scribe challenged. Scott Bradner just starting on his 3978 update draft
[14:10:37] --- hartmans has joined
[14:10:48] <Simon Josefsson> Ok. is the agenda or presentation available online?
[14:11:46] <Simon Josefsson> I've found some at https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=65
[14:11:58] <becarpenter> http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06mar/slides/ipr-0.ppt
[14:12:21] <becarpenter> That's what we have on the screen
[14:13:07] <becarpenter> Not going through details, just overview
[14:13:59] <Simon Josefsson> thanks
[14:14:24] --- dcrocker has left
[14:14:33] <becarpenter> David Black: is line 5 on slide 2 the only part to move to Joel's draft?
[14:14:55] <becarpenter> A: that is SCott's idea, Harald waiting to decide
[14:15:19] --- gtw has left
[14:16:09] <becarpenter> looking at the open issues slide (no 3)
[14:17:48] <becarpenter> John Klensin: on 1st open issue: we don't need frequent revisions of boilerplate, we need more clarity in 3978bis about distinction between copyright and underlying technology rights
[14:18:24] <becarpenter> JK: need more clarity that copyright covers rights we have and not rights we don't have
[14:18:45] <becarpenter> JK: don't outguess the lawyers
[14:19:03] <becarpenter> Simon, do you have the audio stream?
[14:19:11] <Simon Josefsson> Yes
[14:19:19] --- gtw has joined
[14:19:26] <Simon Josefsson> Loud and clear, even.
[14:19:32] <becarpenter> Jorge Contreras at the mike
[14:20:04] <becarpenter> Simon, if you want to "speak" type in your statement and someone will read it
[14:20:13] <Simon Josefsson> Thanks.
[14:22:36] <Simon Josefsson> If you are taking questions: Why is _additional_ copyright notices not allowed? Because of confusion with the IETF copyright, or for some other reason?
[14:23:06] <Simon Josefsson> ("you" being Jorge, or the WG in general)
[14:24:39] --- gtw has left
[14:24:39] <hartmans> Ah, we are so proud of our formatting that we copyright it:-)
[14:25:29] <hartmans> Simon, I was tempted to ask the same question, particularly given the claim that in the US you need a copyright notice to sue for damages.
[14:25:36] <hartmans> However I'm not sure that question is within this agenda topic.
[14:30:34] <Simon Josefsson> my reason for bringing it up is that when extracting code from rfc's, you will want to put a copyright notice on the extracted file. it is not likely that the ietf will own the copyright on that material, so it may be useful to specify who owns a particular part of a document.
[14:31:00] <Simon Josefsson> (I'll write that up for the mailing list, its too detailed to discuss, I think)
[14:31:01] --- Glenn Parsons has joined
[14:32:38] --- gtw has joined
[14:34:31] <Simon Josefsson> (Thanks for reading my question, Brian)
[14:35:33] <becarpenter> (yr welcome)
[14:42:54] --- hardie@jabber.psg.com has joined
[14:44:59] --- dcrocker has joined
[14:45:51] <becarpenter> Simon: so look at the agenda list of issues starting with #1199
[14:47:10] --- kdz has joined
[14:48:18] --- klensin has joined
[14:52:20] <Simon Josefsson> in reply to brian's comment: bcp78 does NOT grant outbound rights for code. The rights granted regarding code mentioned in 3.3(E) are only granted to ISOC/IETF, not third parties. I'm not sure of that is the section you and harald looked at though.
[14:54:27] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> Simon: I just asked that question--they are thinking about 3.3(3), but we recognize that it is limited by 5 (to IETF documents,in other words)
[14:55:31] <Simon Josefsson> and it is also limited by the first paragraph in 3.3 that grant the rights in (E) only to ISOC/IETF
[14:56:08] <Simon Josefsson> So I would agree that it is not a solved issue.
[15:00:33] <hartmans> Joel keeps hitting my noise filters
[15:00:39] <hartmans> I mean that he's a bit loud.
[15:02:22] --- gtw has left: Replaced by new connection
[15:02:27] --- gtw has joined
[15:05:38] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> forgive me, simon, for misquoting you as "do ye as ye will". I didn't have your draft in front of me.
[15:06:04] --- Barry Leiba has left: Replaced by new connection
[15:06:08] <Simon Josefsson> Ted: that's more or less what i believe i intend with that license
[15:06:50] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> I f you have the chance to past your new section 12, into the jabber chat, it might help others.
[15:06:58] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> er, paste, not past
[15:07:09] <Simon Josefsson> Regarding the abstract and section 1, 3, 8, 10, 12, 13, and 14 of this document, that were written by Simon Josefsson ("the author", for the remainder of this section), the author makes no guarantees and is not responsible for any damage resulting from its use. The author grants irrevocable permission to anyone to use, modify, and distribute it in any way that does not diminish the rights of anyone else to use, modify, and distribute it, provided that redistributed derivative works do not contain misleading author or version information. Derivative works need not be licensed under similar terms.
[15:07:35] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> Thanks
[15:07:39] <Simon Josefsson> (this is actually for an even newer version of the document which also contain lgpl'd C code)
[15:08:04] <Simon Josefsson> if anyone wants more details, see: http://josefsson.org/base-encoding/
[15:09:10] --- Barry Leiba has joined
[15:11:17] <hartmans> John, we have not allowed copyright statements; we have allowed legal textthat is clearly an alternative license that may be used in addition to the standard ietf license
[15:12:39] --- pguenther has joined
[15:13:02] --- hardie@jabber.psg.com has left
[15:14:30] <klensin> Sam, this is one of the areas in which at least some very competent legal opinions suggest that we are trying to make distinctions that would have a reasonably good chance of being blown away if there were ever litigation.
[15:14:49] --- hardie@jabber.psg.com has joined
[15:16:28] <hartmans> John, I think this is one of the cases where we need to introduce specific legal advice into the discussion or trust the legal advice we're getting from our own lawyer. Your experience is not what I have heard from my lawyers when asking about combining licenses etc in my day job.
[15:17:03] <hartmans> So, I'm willing to agree that perhaps we should ask our lawyer for guidelines, but I don't think it is appropriate for me to act based on unseen legal advice from compitent but not-present authorities.
[15:17:35] --- avri has left: Logged out
[15:18:43] <hartmans> However I'll accept that you probably have your lawyers set to a more conservative setting than I do:-)
[15:26:22] <klensin> Sam, Jorge has acknowledged that the situation has never been fully analyzed. The advice we have been been getting from him needs to be better identified with the questions he has been asked which, I believe, have often been lacking in context. And that is precisely why I'm advocating that we figure out precisely what we want to do, then attend to text-drafting. By the way, I didn't take your comment as applying to combining licenses but to a different piece of the problem. As in other areas, the questions are as important as the answers.
[15:27:45] <hartmans> Ah. OK.
[15:28:14] <hartmans> My comment was intended to apply to whether the IESG could reasonably make sure that licenses did not restrict rights without lawyer review.
[15:30:37] <klensin> That question is clearly affected by how high one sets the paranoia knob. And there are ways to make the situation lots easier, but I gather than most require un-muddling the "who has what rights to what things" questions (essentially another knob).
[15:31:10] <hartmans> Yes.
[15:31:22] <hartmans> I'm very concerned about rights in existing RFCs and properly tracking what rights we have.
[15:31:40] <hartmans> I think that mess will be with us for the rest of my life and certainly the rest of my involvement in IETF.
[15:32:16] <klensin> I fear so. Certainly for the rest of mine.
[15:33:38] <Simon Josefsson> i just lost audio.
[15:35:43] <gtw> also lost audio
[15:37:11] <Simon Josefsson> audio available from http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/ietf65-local.m3u
[15:37:12] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> David Black is talking about 3rd party ipr disclosure and potential liability
[15:37:22] <Simon Josefsson> official link doesn't work any more
[15:37:26] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> He can't give a full quote.
[15:37:37] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> Consequence to the maker of a 3rd party disclosure is the core.
[15:37:39] <Simon Josefsson> audio works for me again
[15:37:54] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> *suspects David Black *really* didn't want to be quoted*
[15:38:07] --- oern2 has joined
[15:43:37] <gtw> no audio yet here. the uoregon link took me to some other discussion than ipr
[15:44:31] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> Review of a set of issues, and they were closed as needing no action.
[15:44:54] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> Numbers on the slides, which will be posted
[15:45:57] --- oern2 has left
[15:52:29] --- hartmans has left
[15:52:31] --- Barry Leiba has left
[15:52:52] --- hardie@jabber.psg.com has left
[15:56:47] --- gtw has left
[15:58:21] --- gtw has joined
[15:58:51] <pguenther> audio is back
[15:59:33] --- Jim has left
[16:05:45] --- psavola has left
[16:06:29] --- gtw has left
[16:15:36] --- becarpenter has left
[16:15:37] --- becarpenter has joined
[16:16:53] --- dcrocker has left
[16:33:31] --- Simon Josefsson has left
[16:41:22] --- dcrocker has joined
[16:42:38] --- klensin has left: Disconnected
[16:43:33] --- dcrocker has left
[16:48:49] --- Glenn Parsons has left
[16:50:10] --- kdz has left
[16:55:23] --- pguenther has left
[17:00:03] --- becarpenter has left