IETF
IOTOPS
iotops@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, November 12, 2021< ^ >
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[16:00:44] <mcr> wait... IOTOPS has never met in person.
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[16:03:02] <mcr> I can watch jabber.
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[16:03:14] <Alexey Melnikov_web_825> I will watch Jabber as well
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[16:06:06] <Bob Moskowitz> Perhaps this can be used for bluetooth hardware authentication:  https://spectrum.ieee.org/bluetooth-security
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[16:13:22] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @Bob but IEEE 802.15 not working on this
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[16:14:11] <Bob Moskowitz> Oh course not!  This is an implementation flaw that is being exploited.  It kind of points both to perhaps how to design such a feature in and also the risk in doing so.
[16:14:41] <Bob Moskowitz> And 802.15 has not worked on Bluetooth since 802.15.1...
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[16:23:36] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @mcr I just checked, the minutes on my talk are good :)
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[16:27:15] <mcr> :-)
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[16:28:44] <Dave Thaler_web_356> how do you pronounce suib?
[16:29:06] <mcr> meh. SOO EEE BBB.
[16:29:10] <mcr> soeb.
[16:29:19] <Dave Thaler_web_356> like a squib but without the q?
[16:29:19] <Eliot Lear_web_624> @Dave, it's clearly welsh.
[16:29:24] <Eliot Lear_web_624> ;-)
[16:29:29] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> :-D
[16:29:42] <mcr> suib game.
[16:29:53] <Bob Moskowitz> DANCE could be used here.
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[16:30:15] <Dave Thaler_web_356> then we need SONG to go with DANCE
[16:30:26] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> squid game :)
[16:30:39] <mcr> @Bob, yes, we have actually been discussing exactly that... and we don't even need client-names in TLS.... only browser don't speak DTLS.
[16:30:46] <mcr> er, don't speak TLSA.
[16:30:53] <mcr> (TLA overload)
[16:30:55] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> wouldn't DANCE require DNSSEC, moving this just to how to trust the local DNS?
[16:31:58] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> ad unusable: ... and we really don't want to train users to do that
[16:32:34] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> So why don't we give the thing a name and a cert?
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[16:32:49] <mcr> what's the name?
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[16:33:04] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> foo.bar.baz.de
[16:33:07] <mcr> can we convince the browser community to accept  a new set of anchors for those names?
[16:33:08] <Bob Moskowitz> 802.1AR everywhere?
[16:33:13] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> Nothing new needed.
[16:33:15] <Dave Thaler_web_356> seruialnumber.philips-hue.local ?
[16:33:32] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> Not that great, as .local is a special name.
[16:33:50] <Eduard V_web_839> Enterprises do not manage certificates for users because it is a big additional job. Never to say about IoT.
[16:33:55] <Bob Moskowitz> @Dave, close to what is in the IdevID.
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[16:34:04] <mcr> we actually have a proposal that does exactly that @Dave, but it requires a wildcard certificate, since the device has a ULA or RFC1918 address, so we have to convince seruialnumber.philips-hue.com to answer with that name.
[16:34:14] <mcr> CABforum won't trust names ending in .local
[16:34:30] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> So don't use them.  What good is .local?
[16:34:31] <mcr> I think it's later in the slides.
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[16:35:13] <Eliot Lear_web_624> First problem.  Fix the name of the project ;-)
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[16:35:31] <Eliot Lear_web_624> A perfect bikeshedding opportunity
[16:35:48] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @Eliot agreed
[16:35:49] <Kohei Isobe_web_609> Is this related work ?
https://www.w3.org/community/httpslocal/
[16:36:15] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> You can try to change the browsers.  It is easier to use them as they are.
[16:36:49] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> what is "root signed"?
[16:36:51] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> Kohei: yes, it just stopped dead at somepoint
[16:37:10] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> Carsten: "signed by something that traces back to CA Browser Forum"
[16:37:17] <Dave Thaler_web_356> I think OCF "solves" this by not using the browser
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[16:37:35] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> OK, an actual Web PKI cert.
[16:37:43] <mcr> Yes, OCF solves it that way, as does MATTER. MATTER also issues a local certificate, which still isn't useable to browsers.
[16:37:46] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> ACME can give you that (letsencrypt).
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[16:38:18] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> Carsten: Almost. It still needs to communicate with the key holder.
[16:38:21] <Eliot Lear_web_624> This should be married to something like DPP.
[16:38:35] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> Christian: Sure.  So you need a helper in the Internet.
[16:38:44] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> That's pretty much the current proposal, yes.
[16:39:09] <Eliot Lear_web_624> @Christian who were you replying to?
[16:39:26] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> I'm confused because the students set this all up here.  They just didn't know it couldn't be done.
[16:39:39] <Dave Thaler_web_356> assuming internet connectivity will work for some iot scenarios and won't work for some iot scenarios
[16:39:47] <Tadahiko Ito_web_199> If it were about local https, I can imagine that browser would say that they have responsibility to provide secure service.  If it were about unique name, we should discuss about dns validation.
[16:39:50] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> My "current proposal" was related to "you need a helper"
[16:39:53] <mcr> PLEX basically has a url like: https://192-168-1-2.deviceserial.devices.example/, and device has wildcard cert: *.deviceserial.devices.example, and DNS server constructs answer "IN A 192.168.1.1" for 192-168-1-2.deviceserial.devices.example.
[16:39:55] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> You need the Internet to get a cert.
[16:40:17] <Dave Thaler_web_356> you don't need the internet to get a cert.
[16:40:28] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> Why do you need the address in the cert?  Facebook works without that.
[16:40:34] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> Dave: At least with the ACME providers we found you do.
[16:40:46] <Dave Thaler_web_356> maybe an ACME limitation then
[16:40:47] <Eliot Lear_web_624> Who are you getting the cert from?
[16:40:55] <Dave Thaler_web_356> who is you?
[16:40:55] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> letsencrypt
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[16:41:00] <Dave Thaler_web_356> (to eliot)
[16:41:02] <mcr> Carsten, facebook.com has a DNS server with it's addresses.
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[16:41:12] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> Yes.
[16:41:22] <Eliot Lear_web_624> That is, if a device is registering, who should it contact for a certificate/
[16:41:25] <Eliot Lear_web_624> ?
[16:41:35] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> You need a DNS server and a node that talks to letsencrypt.
[16:42:04] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> Ad "why address": It works without too, but then it's dyndns and needs even more device online-ness.
[16:42:06] <Dave Thaler_web_356> some devices have a certificate from the manufacturer.  If you mean from the network owner, then you get it from the network owner.
[16:42:09] <mcr> @Eliot, some solutions have a pre-provisioned name that gets the IP address mapping added afterwards, or derived.
[16:42:30] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> (Ideally I'd like to have this work fully offline, or at least when the commissioning borwser has Internet access but the device does not)
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[16:42:56] <Christian Amsüss_web_339> Dave: Browser certificate lifetimes are now shorter than device shelf lives.
[16:42:57] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @mcr yes, recent Facebook crash was because of that
[16:43:00] <Dave Thaler_web_356> Right Christian.   OCF-style solutions do not require any internet connectivity.   EVen a browser based one need not necessarily
[16:43:04] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> You need Internet access to talk to letsencrypt.  Every three months or so.
[16:43:12] <Eliot Lear_web_624> @dave- the premise is that the manufacturer cert trust anchor is not in the browser.
[16:43:30] <mcr> @behcet, all of us have indirection from name-in-certificate and DNS-to-resolve name ,right?
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[16:44:30] <Eliot Lear_web_624> But if you start from the basis that the manufacture cert IS in the browser or is x-signed by someone well known, then you don't need the Internet.
[16:44:54] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> I don't know how to get this into my iPhone.
[16:45:12] <Dave Thaler_web_356> right (x-signed by someone well known like the owner or network admin of the network it's being onboarded to)
[16:45:26] <Eliot Lear_web_624> in a consumer space, that's hard.
[16:45:33] <Eliot Lear_web_624> for the moment
[16:45:43] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_474> The problem is that to verify a certificate you also need Internet. If not, every IoT device could bring its certificate.
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[16:46:04] <mcr> @Carsten, you basically can't. And Apple and Google really don't want new anchors to be added by users...because apps might convince users to do that... and then total on-path attack.
[16:46:21] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> OK, I'm talking about browser to device.  Devices can be more intelligent about this.
[16:46:30] <Dave Thaler_web_356> in the consumer space you generally have internet (at least at some point).  But the problem of browsing local web resources in a secure usable manner (title of preso) is not only about the normal consumer case, from my understanding anyway.   Hence my agreement with Christian's statement.
[16:46:49] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> mcr, it is good to know that the students couldn't have done it...
[16:47:25] <Roy Williams_web_124> In the consumer space, the buying of a lightbulb to put on the shelf for later is engrained.
[16:47:41] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> Dave, so get some data mules every three months :-)
[16:47:45] <Roy Williams_web_124> The technology we come up with needs to deal with 1 year or multiyear devices.
[16:48:32] <Carsten Bormann_web_523> (Eliot: Is this about IOT, i.e., involuntary ownership transfer?)
[16:48:42] <Dave Thaler_web_356> @Carsten that's basically what ZebraNet is (mentioned in some ietf plenary some years ago).  same for busses in africa someplace
[16:48:52] <mcr> I think he is covering the same space, but with a smaller focus.
[16:48:55] <Warren Kumari_web_602> "jumping"
[16:49:15] <mcr> I had a long email thread with Henning about IOT stuff after his RIOT-Summit presentation.
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[16:51:34] <Carsten Bormann_web_711> I still think that the cloudless browser access to home IoT resources is easily solvable.
[16:51:40] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @mcr Really?
[16:51:44] <Nicholas Allott_web_585> RE: SUIB just catching up on questions: in general there may be two classes of solutions - ones that assume internet access  and ones that dont (much harder sub problem - but very real use case). In addition (imho) some legacy guidelines need creating to clarify what browser should do when they hit the millions of devices already out there
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[16:52:06] <Dave Thaler_web_356> good topic, this is the Involuntary Ownership Transfer OPS WG after all :)
[16:52:20] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> He was a SIP guy in IETF
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[16:52:58] <Bob Moskowitz> Rows and flows of angels hair. - For control of IoT.
[16:53:40] <Nicholas Allott_web_585> @carsten: please if you have a solution - would be great
[16:54:10] <Carsten Bormann_web_711> Nicholas: I need to get the students to write it up...
[16:55:02] <Warren Kumari_web_602> Cycle power N times in M seconds -> reset.... what could go wrong :-P
[16:55:18] <Bob Moskowitz> the power button breaks.
[16:56:14] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @Nordmark your camera mispointing
[16:56:37] <Bob Moskowitz> Got one of those on my desk right now.  Thinking about where I can get a new switch and how to do the surface mount soldering.
[16:56:49] <Alexey Melnikov_web_825> His camera doesn't think it belongs to him ;-)
[16:57:00] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_474> You need always a reset!
[16:57:29] <mcr> @Eliot was there a draft associated with this?
[16:58:09] <Dave Thaler_web_356> Wes asks kids to tattle on each other
[16:58:14] <Dave Thaler_web_356> :)
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[17:00:29] <Eliot Lear_web_624> nope
[17:00:34] <Alexey Melnikov_web_825> Eliot: sounds like a plan (just me personally, of course)
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[17:00:56] <mcr> @Eliot, so let's use my draft.  I want to look Behcet and Henning in as co-authors.
[17:00:57] <Eliot Lear_web_624> help wanted!
[17:01:00] <mcr> s/look/loop/
[17:01:01] <Eliot Lear_web_624> ok
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[17:01:15] <Carsten Bormann_web_711> Please fix the notes https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-112-iotops?edit
[17:01:19] <Carsten Bormann_web_711> before going home
[17:01:21] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> wrapping up
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[17:01:34] <Juhamatti Kuusisaari_web_346> thanks! great presentations!
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[17:01:34] <Eliot Lear_web_624> thanks henk
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[17:01:38] <mcr> Yes, please correct my mis-understandings!
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[17:01:41] <Eliot Lear_web_624> thanks alexey
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[17:01:51] <Alexey Melnikov_web_825> Thank you all
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